Permanent Inks

[amberleadavis]

Check out some of these links.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/221804-sunny-experiments-4-need-help/

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/248800-fade-olympics-2013-sponsored-by-tlvpp/

[casualmerlinconstant]

I guess you've never used Quink Washable Blue.... Which, in my experience, *did* fade after a matter of months in a closed journal. A lot. It might not be completely illegible, but it was very hard to read because it was so pale -- much paler than when it went down on the page.

I'm not sure I buy all the hype about Noodler's inks, but I *do* tend to use Kung Te Cheng, El Lawrence, or 54th Massachusetts when signing checks or addressing envelope. Which have the added advantage of being (to me) very nice or interesting colors. But for my journal? Anything goes -- it's whatever I have in a pen on any particular given day. This morning it was Noodler's North African Violet. Yesterday it was Diamine Emerald. Tomorrow, it might be De Atramentis Rose. Or vintage Quink Brown (not sure if that one is Washable or Permanent, because when I bought the bottle a couple of summers ago it was missing the paper label, and a swab test made me think it was possibly oxidized Quink Red (it was sort of a burgundy color in the swab test, but in a pen it definitely goes down on the page and dries brown).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

Actually it was the annoying tendency of Quink washable blue to fade that drove me to search for other inks. This then led to the discovery of sooo many different inks to try . Quink does fade dramatically, but while ugly, it has never faded into inivisibility/illegibility for me haha. Apparently it has varying behaviour. One forum member once said they had used Quink washable blue for upward of 30 years without any fading problems, so not sure what's going on there.

Edited May 5, 2014 by superglueshoe

[welch]

I guess you've never used Quink Washable Blue.... Which, in my experience, *did* fade after a matter of months in a closed journal. A lot. It might not be completely illegible, but it was very hard to read because it was so pale -- much paler than when it went down on the page.

I'm not sure I buy all the hype about Noodler's inks, but I *do* tend to use Kung Te Cheng, El Lawrence, or 54th Massachusetts when signing checks or addressing envelope. Which have the added advantage of being (to me) very nice or interesting colors. But for my journal? Anything goes -- it's whatever I have in a pen on any particular given day. This morning it was Noodler's North African Violet. Yesterday it was Diamine Emerald. Tomorrow, it might be De Atramentis Rose. Or vintage Quink Brown (not sure if that one is Washable or Permanent, because when I bought the bottle a couple of summers ago it was missing the paper label, and a swab test made me think it was possibly oxidized Quink Red (it was sort of a burgundy color in the swab test, but in a pen it definitely goes down on the page and dries brown).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

 

I was saddened by he current Quink Washable Blue. However, I have essays from about 1963 written in Sheaffer's Washabe Black that look like they were written yesterday.

 

In the olden dayes, we were not taught "proper pen hygiene" because we refilled every morning. Did not want to run dry during school. Of course we used one ink...some used Quink, some used Sheaffer, some used permanent Parker or Sheaffer ink...although our parents warned that we were in for trouble if a pen leaked permenant ink onto our clothes.

 

However, we were taught how to take care of our papers. Everything went on three-hole paper (no kidding:20 pound National 3-holed college ruled paper was great for fountain pens. The binder went into a water resistant or water proof book bag. We were assigned a text for for each course, assigned in September and expected to return it in June. We were also in trouble if out school books got soaked. We wore rain ponchos that cvered the book bags that held the notebooks that held our papers.

 

Maybe that's what's missing today? There have been several threads in which people ask about putting a fountain pen in their pants pocket, or writing journaentries while hiking. Things we (1950s - '60s) were traiined never to do. Our fountain pen was our wrd procesor, and we treated it as carefully as people treat computers today.

 

Maybe it's also, a little but, from kis today learning to write with pencils and ballpoints,and then asuming that a fountan pen can be handl3d like a pencil.

 

A good example: watch the Dana Andrews / Gene Tierney movie "Where the Sidewalk Ends" from about 1950. Andrews has to write a letter. He goes to a desk, pulls out a sheaf of blank paper (no lines!!), puls out what looks like a Sheaffer Tuckaway fountain pen (very short clip) and slowly writes. He folds the paper, puts it into an envelope, sels the envelop, and put his fountain pen back in his desk. Then he takes goes off to face the bad guys.

 

*

 

I can understand wanting water-resistant ink. That's what permenant ink was in the "golden age". It's hard to imagine a use for "forgery proof" ink, since forgers imitate signatures. No magic ink will stop a forger. Now companies have several ways of digitally signing documents, which allows both parties to store multiple copies of an original document. Corporations and banks send money transfer instructions with digital signatures attached. If anyone tampers with the text, the document sho2s an error. Large companies demand that their monthly bank statements be sent as PDF's; that saves storage spage, allows the coporation to store in multiple locations, and allows programs to search documents easily.

 

Deep freezein also seems unnecessary. Who writes in 30 below weather with a fountain pen?

 

"Forgery proof" seems like advertising baloney. Water resistant seems reasonable...as long as someone new to fountain pens is not told that they are at risk unless they use Doctor Carters Magic Bomproof ink. After all, Quink helped to win WW2 by conserving precious rubber. Just read the Quink advertisements.

[Brian1]

This topic is timely for me. I want to find a blueish color to use. As has been stated previously in this thread Permanent ink means different things to different people and different organizations depending upon their needs. For me a permanent ink needs to be waterproof or at least water resistant and fade resistant from light and heat.

I want my general use inks to be able to survive general mishaps - that means a black and some sort of blue. Other inks do not need to be permanent. My black ink and whatever I end up selecting for a blue need to be able to survive being caught in the rain, being dropped outside where it can get wet, possibly overnight, my spilling a drink on my papers, or having note cards drop out of my shirt pocket into soapy water. And lastly being fade resistant from exposure to sunlight or heat since I sometimes leave papers in the car either intentionally or accidentally.

The other inks I use do not need to have the same qualities of permanence.

[SeeksAdvice]

You'd be amazed at what doesn't get done electronically Oil lease checks, large oil lease checks and payment for oilfield equipment come to mind. Toner, interestingly enough, doesn't seem that secure. Had people attack it with petrochemical solvents. Well, at least that's what I'm assuming happened as we found the solvents plus altered checks.

 

I really don't like Noodler's "bulletproof" inks as I find them to be a royal pain to deal with. However, I do have to recognize some of their useful properties. As much as I dislike Bad Green Gator for most things, it's great stuff for checks. Fast dry, waterproof, etc.

 

In retrospect, I probably shouldn't have bought so many bottles of Noodlers, and instead stayed with Sailor's nano inks for durability. But, it is what it is.

[amberleadavis]

Brian1 - start with samples! Try things out. Find out what inks work with your pens, paper and lifestyle.

[Caventinck]

Look at my fade tests.

 

Here's a quick look ...

 

http://sheismylawyer.com/She_Thinks_In_Ink/Tests/Fade/2012/Subjects/slides/64-2012-10-14_001.jpg

 

Thanks for your reply. I also received an answer from J. Herbin saying:

 

 

For archival properties coloured inks are less suitable. I would agree with you that the Perle Noir might be a better option. Or a highly saturated ink like the deep blue 1670 Anniversary ink. Ref. H150/18.

 

So I guess black inks, seeing your samples, indeed have a higher longevity...

[fiberdrunk]

One reason for permanent inks is genealogy work. I have journals from my great-great grandfather, who was quite the penman. He served a mission in New Zealand with his wife in the 1800's, and one of their sons (my great-grandfather) was born there. He might have thought he was only writing for himself, for his day. But what a treasure those journals are for me and my family today! There are amazing stories in those journals. A history textbook just isn't going to give you the same picture of day-to-day life. That's why I'm a permanent ink freak and have done a lot of fade tests on many inks (I've always got a few ongoing). I keep a journal and make sure the inks I use are as permanent as I can find. Paper must be archival, too.

[PrintersDevil]

I read a lot about "permanent," or "bullet proof" inks. I just got out my journal from 1963 to check on the ink. I am not sure with brand it was, but it certainly was not "permanent" ink. There was NO fading at all after 50 years! So, what is the big deal about "permanent" ink in relation to the ability to be readable in the future?

 

I know that there is the matter of words on paper getting wet, and as I understand it, permanent inks stand up better in that torture test. As far as I believe, at this time, there is very little chance of my journals getting wet. And even if they do, it will not be the "end of the world." I write them for ME ---- right now ---- not for someone else in the distant future.

 

Your thoughts please.

 

C. S.

 

CS,

The best ink for you is the ink you like the best.

If whatever you choose gives you the results you want, then you have found the right ink.

For the last year, I have been focusing on waterproof and fade resistant inks.

The reason for this is that I want something that won't run when exposed to water.

Like my envelopes when I walk in the rain to my mailbox.

I want ink that won't fade so that when I write a note and post it on my cubicle wall it won't fade.

I have found that the Noodler's products fill the bill for me and I have been quite satisfied with them.

Joe

[VivienR]

I have only 32 different inks, what I considered bullet or water or acetone proof is Platinum Carbon Black. Its simply indestructible... If I would want to write something in the future, would definitely do with that.

[max dog]

Look at my fade tests.

 

Here's a quick look ...

 

http://sheismylawyer.com/She_Thinks_In_Ink/Tests/Fade/2012/Subjects/slides/64-2012-10-14_001.jpg

For me water resistance and fade resistance would be absolutely important.

Can you imagine how tragic it would have been if Beethoven or Shakespeare wrote their masterpieces in washable blue ink that fadeds to illegibility after a few years!! Not that my scribblings will be masterpieces nor read by anyone else, but I certainly wouldn't want my words to fade to nothing in my journal because the ink faded or washed away. I value the time and effort I put into my writing and to have it all fade away to nothing would be unacceptable.

 

Thanks amberleadavis for your fade test post. I may have to re-think using MB Oyster Grey which was one of my favourites. It looks like black and brownish/red inks fared the best.

How did you get the ink to fade in your testing? Was it just ove time?

Edited May 18, 2014 by max dog

[amberleadavis]

For me water resistance and fade resistance would be absolutely important.

Can you imagine how tragic it would have been if Beethoven or Shakespeare wrote their masterpieces in washable blue ink that fadeds to illegibility after a few years!! Not that my scribblings will be masterpieces nor read by anyone else, but I certainly wouldn't want my words to fade to nothing in my journal because the ink faded or washed away. I value the time and effort I put into my writing and to have it all fade away to nothing would be unacceptable.

 

Thanks amberleadavis for your fade test post. I may have to re-think using MB Oyster Grey which was one of my favourites. It looks like black and brownish/red inks fared the best.

How did you get the ink to fade in your testing? Was it just ove time?

 

 

http://sheismylawyer.com/She_Thinks_In_Ink/2014-Inklings/slides/2014-Ink_495.jpghttp://sheismylawyer.com/She_Thinks_In_Ink/2014-Inklings/slides/2014-Ink_496.jpg

[max dog]

 

 

http://sheismylawyer.com/She_Thinks_In_Ink/2014-Inklings/slides/2014-Ink_495.jpghttp://sheismylawyer.com/She_Thinks_In_Ink/2014-Inklings/slides/2014-Ink_496.jpg

Thanks Amberleadavis. These fade tests are really valuable. I know which inks I will avoid.

[amberleadavis]

Glad it helps.

[welch]

- We have no manuscripts from Shakespeare. We work from a collection of his plays published by his friends and fellow actors, comparing that edition with other copies that appear.

 

- I don't know how much Beethoven we have only in manuscript, but he published his works...at least tried, because that's the main way composers were paid in his day.

 

- I just opened a book that I bought in 1964. How do I know? I signed and dated it using Sheaffer Washable Black (#62...the 2-ounce bottle)

 

There are sometimes reasons for using a more permanent ink, but people began to buy "washable" ink because we spill ink on ourselves more often than we spill water on our writing. I use two varieties of water-resistant ink: one is a mix of vintage (late 1940s) Quink Royal Blue plus modern inks to give it some punch. Vintage Quink will resist a five or ten minute full-blast rinse in the sink. Second is a mix of Pilot Blue (characterless, blah) with Pilot Iroshizuku Asa-Gao (most beautiful ink on the market).

 

Why?

 

- New York had about 5 inches of rain one day a couple of weeks back. My knapsack got wet, but my writing was safe inside a TWSBI notebook. I thought, well, once in a while...

 

- Last summer I left the house on a clear blue day for a doctor's appointment. Got out of the 59th Street subway in a semi-monsoon downpour. Had to walk three cross-town blocks. Thoroughly wet and shivering, I got to the office and noticed that the rain had spattered down the nib-opening of my Pilot VP, leaving an arc of blue ink around my shirt pocket. Since the ink was Asa-Gao, I just washed the shirt and all was clean.

 

That's the typical trade-off: ink that will not wash off of paper will not wash off clothes or desks or wood floors, either.

 

Sun-damage? The Dead Sea Scrolls were wrapped up and stored in clay jars, The Gnostic texts were put into cloth bags and buried. Few writings were meant to be left in the sun.

[max dog]

- We have no manuscripts from Shakespeare. We work from a collection of his plays published by his friends and fellow actors, comparing that edition with other copies that appear.

 

- I don't know how much Beethoven we have only in manuscript, but he published his works...at least tried, because that's the main way composers were paid in his day.

 

- I just opened a book that I bought in 1964. How do I know? I signed and dated it using Sheaffer Washable Black (#62...the 2-ounce bottle)

 

There are sometimes reasons for using a more permanent ink, but people began to buy "washable" ink because we spill ink on ourselves more often than we spill water on our writing. I use two varieties of water-resistant ink: one is a mix of vintage (late 1940s) Quink Royal Blue plus modern inks to give it some punch. Vintage Quink will resist a five or ten minute full-blast rinse in the sink. Second is a mix of Pilot Blue (characterless, blah) with Pilot Iroshizuku Asa-Gao (most beautiful ink on the market).

 

Why?

 

- New York had about 5 inches of rain one day a couple of weeks back. My knapsack got wet, but my writing was safe inside a TWSBI notebook. I thought, well, once in a while...

 

- Last summer I left the house on a clear blue day for a doctor's appointment. Got out of the 59th Street subway in a semi-monsoon downpour. Had to walk three cross-town blocks. Thoroughly wet and shivering, I got to the office and noticed that the rain had spattered down the nib-opening of my Pilot VP, leaving an arc of blue ink around my shirt pocket. Since the ink was Asa-Gao, I just washed the shirt and all was clean.

 

That's the typical trade-off: ink that will not wash off of paper will not wash off clothes or desks or wood floors, either.

 

Sun-damage? The Dead Sea Scrolls were wrapped up and stored in clay jars, The Gnostic texts were put into cloth bags and buried. Few writings were meant to be left in the sun.

I dont know about Shakespeare,but I have read about historians having found some of Beethoven's original compositions and letters that have survived and is still legible. I am no historian of manuscripts, but experience shared by some on this thread with some inks that faded to illegibility after a few years would concern me. I would want my writing not to fade for at least many decades or a hundred years, not that any of my journals will survive that long, nor interesting enough after I am gone that anyone would care about them. Whether you leave inks exposed to sunlight or not, from the above test some inks definately show better resistance to fade than others.

 

But as you point out, I can see there is some practical benefit with washable inks not leaving a permanent stain on clothes and other surfaces ink was not meant to go on.

Edited May 23, 2014 by max dog