Inky T O D - Would You Buy Ink Powder To Mix If It Were Fp Safe?

[tfwall]

We looked at about a decade ago and chemically, it is feasible. There are other issues to consider though:

 

1.) Perceived value. Most people would agree that $12 for 3 ounces of liquid ink is pretty good value. Would you feel the same way about getting 0.05 ounces of powder in a small envelope for $12 or even $9? What if we sold you the special "heavy user" envelope with 0.075 ounces of powder, allowing you to mix up 4.5 ounces of liquid, for $19? Without the heft of a bottle and a pretty colored solution to look at, the perceived value drops. Even if we pass along the savings in manpower, materials and shipping to you, the end retailer is still going to want to a profit, so overall final cost won't drop much.

 

2.) User skill and hassle. Now we are asking you to re-constitute the ink at home. How well can you do that? With such small masses, minor losses result in big differences in final product. Even with decent scales and specialized equipment, there are variations in the 500 ounce runs. How well can you rinse all the powder out of the envelope for your 3 ounce run? We could of course dilute the dye down with a solid filler or buy equipment to make it into tabs for you, but that cost money and you still have dilute it at home. How well can you read and follow the directions? Distilled water, not bottled or tap. Three solid ounces, don't use your liquid measuring cup, and so on... Also, how many times would you be willing to do this? Once, for the novelty?

 

3.) Indemnity. We've now essentially ceded half of the QA/QC process to you, but we'll be the ones getting blasted on forums and receiving nasty letters when you can't get the color you want, weird things happen because you didn't precisely follow directions, &c.

 

So, yes, such a thing is possible. However, it would likely lose money compared to conventional ink sales and open up a whole raft of issues.

[amberleadavis]

Okay, but what if you wrote all that down, and gave me the CYMK colors. I admit, I'd be more likely to play with it when I can make it as obnoxiously vibrant as possible. Keep in mind that I just spent $5 on 6 tiny tablets to color eggs. Don't think it hasn't crossed my mind to try that stuff mixed with the clear fluid that came with my Platinum mix free kit. I haven't done it, but it crossed my mind.

[dcwaites]

We looked at about a decade ago and chemically, it is feasible. There are other issues to consider though:

 

1.) Perceived value. Most people would agree that $12 for 3 ounces of liquid ink is pretty good value. Would you feel the same way about getting 0.05 ounces of powder in a small envelope for $12 or even $9? What if we sold you the special "heavy user" envelope with 0.075 ounces of powder, allowing you to mix up 4.5 ounces of liquid, for $19? Without the heft of a bottle and a pretty colored solution to look at, the perceived value drops. Even if we pass along the savings in manpower, materials and shipping to you, the end retailer is still going to want to a profit, so overall final cost won't drop much.

 

2.) User skill and hassle. Now we are asking you to re-constitute the ink at home. How well can you do that? With such small masses, minor losses result in big differences in final product. Even with decent scales and specialized equipment, there are variations in the 500 ounce runs. How well can you rinse all the powder out of the envelope for your 3 ounce run? We could of course dilute the dye down with a solid filler or buy equipment to make it into tabs for you, but that cost money and you still have dilute it at home. How well can you read and follow the directions? Distilled water, not bottled or tap. Three solid ounces, don't use your liquid measuring cup, and so on... Also, how many times would you be willing to do this? Once, for the novelty?

 

3.) Indemnity. We've now essentially ceded half of the QA/QC process to you, but we'll be the ones getting blasted on forums and receiving nasty letters when you can't get the color you want, weird things happen because you didn't precisely follow directions, &c.

 

So, yes, such a thing is possible. However, it would likely lose money compared to conventional ink sales and open up a whole raft of issues.

 

My responses to your points --

 

1) Perceived Value - If all I need to do is add warm water, and a recycled ink bottle, and I get a bl**dy brilliant ink that I can easily adjust to use in dip pens, wet FPs and dry FPs, I'm in for it. Also, one of the advantages of powdered ink is that I don't need to make up the whole lot at once. I can dissolve enough up in 5 or 10 mls of water to make a batch that suits me for now, be it dilute, normal or concentrated, depending on the pen.

 

2) User Skill - I would assume that you blend all the ingredients in the lab, and all I have to do is dump the contents into a container of warm distilled water. I can get distilled water (2 litre bottle) from my hardware store or auto shop. Honestly, the accuracy of the amount of water I use isn't that important, whether it is 95 mls or 105 mls, the depth of colour and other properties will be pretty much the same. Anyway, just the level of evaporation in using normal ink is far greater than that. As a user, it is my job to get all the ink powder into the water. If I don't, then there will be a mess in the kitchen, and the wrath descending on my head from my beloved will far outweigh any other problems.

 

3) Indemnity - Speak to a good lawyer. There are lots of kit systems out there, from Ikea furniture, through kit Amplifiers to packet cake mixes. How do they cope? In fact, packet cake mixes are probably closest to ink mixing powders. What happens if I buy a Angel Food Cake packet, and the end result isn't like what my mother used to make? What rights to I have to complain that while my mother's cake was like eating tasty air, the packet cake is like aerated leather?

 

I am not being negative here, I am trying to be positive. I would support any maker of powdered inks, both in this forum, and with my wallet.

 

Last point, one of the things that really pains me is that the cost of shipping liquid inks in bottles to me is at least the cost of the ink, often more. A $12 bottle of Noodlers will cost me at least $22 all up. $12 worth of ink powder shouldn't cost me more than $2~$5 in postage.

 

Mind you, a drawer full of sachets of ink powder isn't nearly as pretty as Amber's bookshelf of inks.

[tfwall]

 

My responses to your points --

 

1) Perceived Value - If all I need to do is add warm water, and a recycled ink bottle, and I get a bl**dy brilliant ink that I can easily adjust to use in dip pens, wet FPs and dry FPs, I'm in for it. Also, one of the advantages of powdered ink is that I don't need to make up the whole lot at once. I can dissolve enough up in 5 or 10 mls of water to make a batch that suits me for now, be it dilute, normal or concentrated, depending on the pen.

 

2) User Skill - I would assume that you blend all the ingredients in the lab, and all I have to do is dump the contents into a container of warm distilled water. I can get distilled water (2 litre bottle) from my hardware store or auto shop. Honestly, the accuracy of the amount of water I use isn't that important, whether it is 95 mls or 105 mls, the depth of colour and other properties will be pretty much the same. Anyway, just the level of evaporation in using normal ink is far greater than that. As a user, it is my job to get all the ink powder into the water. If I don't, then there will be a mess in the kitchen, and the wrath descending on my head from my beloved will far outweigh any other problems.

 

Yes, I don't disagree with your points. Perhaps what you missed in my original post is the very small amounts of dye that you would actually get to make 3 ounces of ink. Think about how much flour sticks to a clean butter knife when you use it to level a measuring cup. It is just the finest coating. So, it is true that whether you could get 95 or 105 mL of water is of little concern, but it is vitally important that you get ever last dust mote of dye into the solution. If we sold it to you this way, you could not really make up 10 mL on demand, you would barely be able to make up ~90 mL with good success.

 

Now, yes, we could add a stretching agent to the dye to make the amounts more reasonable. Perhaps a buffer (definitely not cellulose), and it would be like the tubs of Kool-Aid powder. But here you are adding a lot of dead weight and useless chemicals in the name of convenience. Would it not just be better to sell you it already made up as a liquid?

 

Alternately, if you were willing to forgo the ability to make up any desired quantity on demand, we could conceivably use a pill press and a binder to make up ink tablets that you could dissolve in a set amount of water. Here again though, we have to add a binder.

 

Again, we run into the problem of perceived value. If we are selling you the potential to make 3 or 4.5 ounces of ink, that is going to compete with more standard liquid ink sales. This means that retailers will want to price it proportionally with liquid inks. It is hard to convince potential buyers that a single ink tablet is worth $12 when they can pick up some already made up ink, that is ready to use now, for the same price.

 

I absolutely agree that powdered ink is definitely of interest to some people, but for a niche market already (specialty fountain pen ink), it is a dangerous gamble to go after a small secondary niche within that market.

[LucasD]

Yes!!! International shipping of ink is so expensive, I would definitely be willing to go through buying distilled water and the process of mixing it, specially if it already came with biocides and everything else.

[amberleadavis]

 

Yes, I don't disagree with your points. Perhaps what you missed in my original post is the very small amounts of dye that you would actually get to make 3 ounces of ink. Think about how much flour sticks to a clean butter knife when you use it to level a measuring cup. It is just the finest coating. So, it is true that whether you could get 95 or 105 mL of water is of little concern, but it is vitally important that you get ever last dust mote of dye into the solution. If we sold it to you this way, you could not really make up 10 mL on demand, you would barely be able to make up ~90 mL with good success.

 

Now, yes, we could add a stretching agent to the dye to make the amounts more reasonable. Perhaps a buffer (definitely not cellulose), and it would be like the tubs of Kool-Aid powder. But here you are adding a lot of dead weight and useless chemicals in the name of convenience. Would it not just be better to sell you it already made up as a liquid?

 

Alternately, if you were willing to forgo the ability to make up any desired quantity on demand, we could conceivably use a pill press and a binder to make up ink tablets that you could dissolve in a set amount of water. Here again though, we have to add a binder.

 

Again, we run into the problem of perceived value. If we are selling you the potential to make 3 or 4.5 ounces of ink, that is going to compete with more standard liquid ink sales. This means that retailers will want to price it proportionally with liquid inks. It is hard to convince potential buyers that a single ink tablet is worth $12 when they can pick up some already made up ink, that is ready to use now, for the same price.

 

I absolutely agree that powdered ink is definitely of interest to some people, but for a niche market already (specialty fountain pen ink), it is a dangerous gamble to go after a small secondary niche within that market.

 

 

I like the idea of the tablet .. .remember those old saccarine tablets. Could they be that small? Then I could mix whatever colors I want. I'd want t a little chemistry set. Maybe this is the Easy Bake Oven for the amateur ink mixer. (BTW, that article suggest that it could prevent us ink psychos from becoming homicidal .. jk).

 

http://media.salon.com/2010/03/easy_bake_oven-460x307.jpg

[dcwaites]

 

Yes, I don't disagree with your points. Perhaps what you missed in my original post is the very small amounts of dye that you would actually get to make 3 ounces of ink. Think about how much flour sticks to a clean butter knife when you use it to level a measuring cup. It is just the finest coating. So, it is true that whether you could get 95 or 105 mL of water is of little concern, but it is vitally important that you get ever last dust mote of dye into the solution. If we sold it to you this way, you could not really make up 10 mL on demand, you would barely be able to make up ~90 mL with good success.

 

Now, yes, we could add a stretching agent to the dye to make the amounts more reasonable. Perhaps a buffer (definitely not cellulose), and it would be like the tubs of Kool-Aid powder. But here you are adding a lot of dead weight and useless chemicals in the name of convenience. Would it not just be better to sell you it already made up as a liquid?

 

Alternately, if you were willing to forgo the ability to make up any desired quantity on demand, we could conceivably use a pill press and a binder to make up ink tablets that you could dissolve in a set amount of water. Here again though, we have to add a binder.

 

Again, we run into the problem of perceived value. If we are selling you the potential to make 3 or 4.5 ounces of ink, that is going to compete with more standard liquid ink sales. This means that retailers will want to price it proportionally with liquid inks. It is hard to convince potential buyers that a single ink tablet is worth $12 when they can pick up some already made up ink, that is ready to use now, for the same price.

 

I absolutely agree that powdered ink is definitely of interest to some people, but for a niche market already (specialty fountain pen ink), it is a dangerous gamble to go after a small secondary niche within that market.

 

I have to (reluctantly) agree. I have some sachets of dip pen ink powder that are designed to make up 1 quart of ink. To make it strong enough for FPs I need to make it 3x stronger, i.e. into about 300 mls. To try and make a 10 ml sample of that I would need a full lab complete with milligram scales.

However, I also have some Simpson ink powder where about a teaspoon or so would make up 50 mls of nice FP ink. I am in the process of writing that up. Sadly, I have just bought the last of it that is available.

[kidde]

Except for us who like to play with our food, I mean ink, the real market will be overseas sales. Send the order in an envelope like correspondence. You could have one guy designated ink master in each area who could mix properly and sell it by the ounce after its reconstituted to those unable/unwilling to mix themselves.

As to delivery/package issues, could we not use a container like a capsule. Instead of gelatin make it from plastic. Whatever tried to stick to the plastic would wash away when you opened the capsule and dropped it in the inkwell.

I have to say it is a very intriguing prospect.

 

Paul

[kwzi]

I'm using powdered pre-mixes for some of my inks, mostly IG - works fine and I do not have any problems.

Amount of powder that stays on the walls after putting into water is very small so it is easily negligible. But what I do afterwards is 3 step filtration of ink, in theory all of the components I use in those premixes are fully water soluble - in practice there is always a solid at the bottom and suspended in the liquid. Even high quality dyes tends to posses some minor water insoluble contaminations.

So in practice a manufacturer have to dissolve everything, than dry it and powder again, and hope that during this process any components would degraded. This process is more expensive than simply dissolving components and after that filtrate the ink.

[fiberdrunk]

This is a cross-post from this thread.

 

I bought some 19th century ink powder on eBay two years ago called Thayer's Wonderful Jet Black Ink Powder. I don't think I ever got around to posting about it. It came in this little paper package with instructions, along with some old timey advertisements and a page of recipes (including an iron gall ink one). It came with a lot of stuff for one little envelope of powdered ink (and the powder is enough to make one gallon's worth)! The ink is waterproof, so I'm wondering if it's iron gall. This is such a fun piece of history!

 

So I'm all for a new generation of ink powders (one can dream right?) Powdered inks apparently have one distinct advantage that bottled inks do not: longevity.

 

Here are the photos:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To see larger versions, go to my Flickr.

Edited April 25, 2014 by fiberdrunk

[amberleadavis]

That's so cool.

[dcwaites]

Between the Hair Restorative, the Corn Annihilator and the Toothache drops, it's a wonder anybody survived to die of old age.

 

The ink, though, looks pretty good.

[fiberdrunk]

Between the Hair Restorative, the Corn Annihilator and the Toothache drops, it's a wonder anybody survived to die of old age.

 

The ink, though, looks pretty good.

 

LOL! Well, I don't think they lived as long in the 1800's, so you may be onto something there. Interestingly, you can still find Thayer products on Amazon (no ink that I know of!) I personally use their slippery elm lozenges for sore throats. They still have old-timey looking tins and bottles. I love the lozenge tin:

 

eta: check out their website here.

 

http://www.thayers.com/store/images/thayerspics/Tin-Maple-side-RGB.jpg

Edited April 26, 2014 by fiberdrunk

[Inkysloth]

LOL! Well, I don't think they lived as long in the 1800's, so you may be onto something there.

This is very true!

 

Though one big reason for average age being much lower, right up until the early 20th century, was high infant mortality. It's a bit of a misconception that few people lived beyond their 50s.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Inkysloth

[alc3261]

So, JustWrite, DCRoe and I were conversing back stage about saturation levels of ink. Seele and DCWaites have both directed me to powder inks. The concept of powdered inks is hardly new ... You can still buy some that is for dip pens at various historical parks.

 

BUT if a reputable manufacturer made one safe for fountain pens, would you buy it? Would you want it to be mixable?

 

Seems pretty reputable - it's Diamine!!

[dcwaites]

Seems pretty reputable - it's Diamine!!

 

Unfortunately, it's over 60 years old, the powder in the canister has solidified, and it is for dip pens only.

 

If someone from Diamine was on the FPN, perhaps they could see if the old recipe was still around, and make a batch for the FPN?? Pretty Please?? With Sprinkles on top?

[Seele]

I'm using powdered pre-mixes for some of my inks, mostly IG - works fine and I do not have any problems.

Amount of powder that stays on the walls after putting into water is very small so it is easily negligible. But what I do afterwards is 3 step filtration of ink, in theory all of the components I use in those premixes are fully water soluble - in practice there is always a solid at the bottom and suspended in the liquid. Even high quality dyes tends to posses some minor water insoluble contaminations.

So in practice a manufacturer have to dissolve everything, than dry it and powder again, and hope that during this process any components would degraded. This process is more expensive than simply dissolving components and after that filtrate the ink.

 

Sorry for coming in late.

 

It's my understanding that gunpowder became practical once they invented the corning process, which turns the three components in powder (serpentine) form into pellets with the proportions of the three active ingredients constant in every pellet. Prior to that, the three components would separate, reducing the effectiveness, so the mixture had to be mixed again prior to use; in pellet form, gunpower keeps much better.

 

This is the reason why I feel that dried ink might be easier to handle if made into small pellets.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Seele

[mirosc]

Just once out of curiosity, but not in general. I'm way too lazy to start mixing that. There are already more than enough inks out there for me so that I can't try them all, so there's no need for me to reach for powder. But the idea is nice. Why not press that into a pill that you simply have to throw into a 1oz bottle and can watch the bubbles rise - like with those sherbet pills from our youth?

[Charles Rice]

No

[amberleadavis]

I just played with my first ink powder. Wow was it fun. Expect a review.

 

I'm editing the pictures now.

 

http://sheismylawyer.com/She_Thinks_In_Ink/Inked_Today/slides/20140526_125059.jpg