Pw Akkerman New Smaller Size

[RMN]

Complaining complaining complaining.

 

Akkerman never intended to sell their inks abroad.

They introduced a line of ink for their anniversary, intended for the home market with some nice bottles. They probably got a good deal on the bottles and the ink.

They intended selling this while stocks were lasting.

 

Then people from abroad saw the nice bottles, and everybody said: I want one. But the cost of packaging was prohibitive (people complained about this)

There were some workarounds, and people bought more colours and hey, they found out the colours were great too.

For Akkerman this was totally unexpected. They were not ready for this, nerver intended to sell abroad but were very accomodating, opening a paypal account and working out the best P&P schemes.

 

Then people also complained the bottles were too big, apart from being expensive in P&P. (I myself have only one bottle, as it will last me a couple of years...)

 

So now Akkerman finds people from broad complaining about the large bottles and the cost of P&P. So they decide to change this.

They introduce a smaller bottle, which is much cheaper to send. Alas making this bottle is as expensive as making the old one (or more, as probably the old ones were done at a good price for the anniversary).

Everybody happy? No, Our FPN members are now complaining the bottles are too expensive.

 

So what do you want? Akkerman could say: OK it has been nice for the anniversary, thanks for your attention. Stocks are depleted, goodbye.

Nobody is forcing you to buy these bottles.

You get a great ink at still competitive prices and you get a great and very practical bottle that is a piece of art in the Bauhaus tradition.

Take it or leave it.

 

 

D.ick

Edited February 8, 2014 by RMN

[Azuniga]

Complaining complaining complaining.

 

Akkerman never intended to sell their inks abroad.

They introduced a line of ink for their anniversary, intended for the home market with some nice bottles. They probably got a good deal on the bottles and the ink.

They intended selling this while stocks were lasting.

 

Then people from abroad saw the nice bottles, and everybody said: I want one. But the cost of packaging was prohibitive (people complained about this)

There were some workarounds, and people bought more colours and hey, they found out the colours were great too.

For Akkerman this was totally unexpected. They were not ready for this, nerver intended to sell abroad but were very accomodating, opening a paypal account and working out the best P&P schemes.

 

Then people also complained the bottles were too big, apart from being expensive in P&P. (I myself have only one bottle, as it will last me a couple of years...)

 

So now Akkerman finds people from broad complaining about the large bottles and the cost of P&P. So they decide to change this.

They introduce a smaller bottle, which is much cheaper to send. Alas making this bottle is as expensive as making the old one (or more, as probably the old ones were done at a good price for the anniversary).

Everybody happy? No, Our FPN members are now complaining the bottles are too expensive.

 

So what do you want? Akkerman could say: OK it has been nice for the anniversary, thanks for your attention. Stocks are depleted, goodbye.

Nobody is forcing you to buy these bottles.

You get a great ink at still competitive prices and you get a great and very practical bottle that is a piece of art in the Bauhaus tradition.

Take it or leave it.

 

 

D.ick

You are absolutely right...'

Nevertheless the ink itself, absolutely besides the "nice" or "beautiful" bottle, is a very consistent ink, great to write with and some colors very special (I use blue and brown) and I have used them longtime. My last two detours through Holland while in Europe were just to buy this ink...

It is also not logical from and industrial point of view to produce a bottle that has an effect on customers and not to want to go beyond... if they really did not care they would not have produced a smaller bottle... Exporting a smaller bottle, even with the cost complaints we read around, is going to be easier and I believe it is going to happen. It is not only a hope, I really believe the small bottle would be easier to export -with all these security issues a large bottle is a problem- and we will see them competing in the market.... some inks will have to work harder against this great ink... You are Dutch, I assume, competition against obstacles is in your nature, so I strongly believe we will see this ink around a wider market pretty soon... specially in America where a lot of expectation is already in place...

Regards

[Sinistral1]

Hmmm, Cool bottle and great ink - tax return, gift for self.

[Shaughn]

It's the bottles that cost most. Not because of the amount of glass (that's peanuts) but because of the production process of the glass molds (plural!). These are not standard bottles that are more or less routinely made. Designing, making, testing and producing the test model mold and finally the production line for the series of production molds is costly. No matter it's a big or a smaller bottle. Then a complete bottle production line has to be converted to that mold. It is not a matter of blowing glass in a mold, but to use a precise amount of glass (called 'gobs' in the glass industry), with exact intervals and timing. Big Akkerman or small Akkerman - these costs are practically equal. Even in plastic bottles, these costs wouldn't be much different, I suppose. There a many vids on youtube showing the glass production process!

 

Given these initial costs, a company will have a break even point at a certain price and a certain amount of bottles resulting in a price per bottle. Unless the expected sales are a good manifold of the sold amount of big bottles, and that much more bottles are ordered aforehand, the price per bottle will not be influenced much. So, only if the initial investment has returned and production of more bottles is merely a matter of more glass, the price per bottle can drop. Add a dime for the glass, add the costs of ink in the bottle 5-10 dimes, add a pretty cardboard box - 2 dimes?

 

And that's why the new small bottle is almost as expensive as the old big one. No rocket science, just stupid economy .

 

 

 

Edited for typo's and a small clarification

Edited February 9, 2014 by Shaughn

[Pterodactylus]

If it is like you claim, it is even more a rip off ,if you sell a product worth 50-100 US Cent (ink, as you claim) for such a price, thenI would call us stupid customers and not call it stupid economy.

 

And they could sell the old bottle filled with a lot of worthless ink , which according to your explanation already reached for sure the "break even point" for let's say 3€ and still make a profit.

 

Sorry but your explanation is not conclusive

[RMN]

If it is like you claim, it is even more a rip off ,if you sell a product worth 50-100 US Cent (ink, as you claim) for such a price, thenI would call us stupid customers and not call it stupid economy.

 

And they could sell the old bottle filled with a lot of worthless ink , which according to your explanation already reached for sure the "break even point" for let's say 3€ and still make a profit.

 

Sorry but your explanation is not conclusive

I would suggest you start buying those Austalian inks that are being send out in plastic bags.

 

Edit: removed remark.

 

You know what is a rip-off inkwise?: The inkcartridges you buy for inkjet printers.

 

 

D.ick

Edited February 10, 2014 by RMN

[migo984]

Complaining complaining complaining.

 

Akkerman never intended to sell their inks abroad.

They introduced a line of ink for their anniversary, intended for the home market with some nice bottles. They probably got a good deal on the bottles and the ink.

They intended selling this while stocks were lasting.

 

Then people from abroad saw the nice bottles, and everybody said: I want one. But the cost of packaging was prohibitive (people complained about this)

There were some workarounds, and people bought more colours and hey, they found out the colours were great too.

For Akkerman this was totally unexpected. They were not ready for this, nerver intended to sell abroad but were very accomodating, opening a paypal account and working out the best P&P schemes.

 

Then people also complained the bottles were too big, apart from being expensive in P&P. (I myself have only one bottle, as it will last me a couple of years...)

 

So now Akkerman finds people from broad complaining about the large bottles and the cost of P&P. So they decide to change this.

They introduce a smaller bottle, which is much cheaper to send. Alas making this bottle is as expensive as making the old one (or more, as probably the old ones were done at a good price for the anniversary).

Everybody happy? No, Our FPN members are now complaining the bottles are too expensive.

 

So what do you want? Akkerman could say: OK it has been nice for the anniversary, thanks for your attention. Stocks are depleted, goodbye.

Nobody is forcing you to buy these bottles.

You get a great ink at still competitive prices and you get a great and very practical bottle that is a piece of art in the Bauhaus tradition.

Take it or leave it.

 

 

D.ick

 

Don't presume to know the reasons why people bought Akkerman. I bought for the ink; the bottles were incidental. I have never been swayed by a pretty bottle, whoever makes it. I have never complained about the amount of ink at 150ml, nor the shipping costs abroad. If Akkerman didn't intend to sell abroad as you suggest, then they shouldn't have accepted our orders & taken our money

 

It was economical. Now it is not. Whether it's because of the price of the bottle or the ink I don't particularly care. as you can't have one without the other. The ink was OK and good value at old price; now it is still OK but not good value - to me. And as you asy, I can take it or leave it. I will leave it. Some people may be happy to pay well over twice as much as before; I'm not.

 

So I agree with you - it's a free choice.

[Shaughn]

If Akkerman didn't intend to sell abroad as you suggest, then they shouldn't have accepted our orders & taken our money.

 

Why not?

You start a thing and meet an unexpected but nice opportunity for it. Why not take it?

[Pterodactylus]

I would suggest you start buying those Austalian inks that are being send out in plastic bags.

 

You know what is a rip-off inkwise?: The inkcartridges you buy for inkjet printers.

 

 

D.ick

Rohrer & Klingner, IMO one of the top tier ink manufacturer produce top notch inks for about 3,8 Euro for 50ml, including 2 first class iron gall inks (in glass bottles not plastic).

 

Rohrer & Klingner and Pelikan 4001 are my reference point regarding price of top notch inks..

 

So my statement is, we are ripped off by many manufacturers.

 

To charge such a premium for a (custom) Diamine ink just because of a new designed bottle is ridiculous.

 

But it's ok if you have a different opinion.

And if a price Increase of 227% for the ink is ok for somebody then it's ok .

A changed packaging is of course a very important reason to accept it.

 

Edited post to remove improper statements.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Pterodactylus

[Koyote]

This is a really fun thread. I'm enjoying it.

[Tas]

This is a really fun thread. I'm enjoying it.

 

Same

[JonSzanto]

I count this as a improper personal attack.

 

[ snip ]

 

A fool and his money is easily parted.....

 

When remarking on unwarranted personal attacks, it is less effective when you imply that others are fools.

 

 

This is a really fun thread. I'm enjoying it.

 

Indeed. Who would have thought personal choice would cause so much rancor and angst? Who would have been unaware that there are many reasons to purchase an object, a product, and that the inclinations to make that purchase vary in degree from person to person?

 

The mind boggles.

Edited February 9, 2014 by JonSzanto

[lynxcat]

i'm fascinated by the Akkerman bottles, but the inks leave me cold. any chance they'll start selling the bottles alone, unlabelled and empty spare for the glass bead? i'd pay for a couple to use as inkwells.

[Pterodactylus]

When remarking on unwarranted personal attacks, it is less effective when you imply that others are fools.

 

You are right, I was upset by the previous post, and I could not resist to quote this saying....

 

It is interesting how less justification is needed that many people seem to accept such a tremendous price increase.

A simple press glass bottle and a glass marble seems to be enough (it's a industry press glass bottle, neither hand blown nor crystal glass).

 

If they would sell hand blown glass bottles, the bottle argument would sound more reasonable for me.

And even then I would prefer to get the ink at a reasonable price and that they sell such bottles separately.

 

At least I write with the ink and the ink is the product I'm interested in.

 

And they were able to sell the big ink bottle also for a reasonable price...... How comes? ....

Edited February 9, 2014 by Pterodactylus

[lynxcat]

as far as pricing goes, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the manufacturing costs of a bottle of ink were totally dominated by packaging and shipping costs. ink can be made by the barrel at a time, and in most cases probably is, because economies of scale will apply and the stuff will be cheaper per gallon the more gallons you make at once. ink bottles are another matter entirely --- making one of those probably costs about the same whether it holds 100ml or 50ml, unless you drastically change the shape.

 

buying a hundred 60ml oddly-shaped ink bottles probably costs Akkerman just about as much as buying a hundred equally oddly-shaped 90ml bottles would --- if the former are any cheaper, then the most likely reason is lower shipping costs for the less bulky package of bottles. printing labels, sticking the labels on the bottles, and the labour costs of filling each bottle are all probably pretty much the same regardless of bottle size. that the two would come out near the same price in the end doesn't much surprise me. if the same ink was sold in simple, plain bottles like (e.g.) Noodler's use, the per-ml price could likely be dropped dramatically --- but how many of us would be obsessing over it then?

[Sinistral1]

I came to the Akkerman bottles long after all the group buys, so did quite a bit of research looking for empty bottles to buy. Short of flying to The Hague and finding out where Akkerman gets their bottles from, I did not turn up a single bottle available for purchase. Interestingly enough, I did discover some of the original bottles that inspired the Akkerman bottle - they were used by several ink companies, both in Europe and America. Of course, none of these were for sale. So, aside from vowing to look in any antique stores I was in on my next trip to Europe, I ordered a bottle of Diep DuinwaterBlauw #8 from Vanness. Way cheaper than a trip to the Akkerman store and then to the bottle factory, where ever that is (China?).

 

Thank goodness the bottles don't come with a tuft of polar bear fur on the cap. Knowing our desire to posess everything that the Jones' already have, an endangered species would be in even worse straights than it already is.

Edited February 9, 2014 by Sinistral1

[Koyote]

Indeed. Who would have thought personal choice would cause so much rancor and angst? Who would have been unaware that there are many reasons to purchase an object, a product, and that the inclinations to make that purchase vary in degree from person to person?

 

The mind boggles.

 

This statement summarizes my thoughts better than I could have done it myself.

 

Many non-FP users probably find it foolish to spend big money on these weird obsolete pens, when you can buy perfectly usable "regular" pens for pennies; how ironic that actual FP users are arguing whether a certain ink is worth the higher price.

[mirosc]

that many people seem to accept such a tremendous price increase.

 

Actually that's the point where we differ. I don't see any price increase. Quite the contrary: the price has dropped, the bottle has become more attractive - in the end I get a better product for less money than before.

 

Oh - you are talking about ink? I don't care about that - if I don't like it, I just dump it (like others before), because it comes as a gift, free with the bottle. I wouldn't buy at Akkerman's for ink anyway - too limited selection and so postage makes the ink too expensive anyway.

 

You don't really think any (!) ink is fairly priced, do you? - it's just water, some per mills of chemicals and a bit of color. The rest is bottle, stickers, marketing and a fancy name.

 

We just differ in what we think is interesting to have. Enjoy your's!

Edited February 9, 2014 by mirosc

[watch_art]

A simple press glass bottle and a glass marble seems to be enough (it's a industry press glass bottle, neither hand blown nor crystal glass).

 

If they would sell hand blown glass bottles, the bottle argument would sound more reasonable for me.

And even then I would prefer to get the ink at a reasonable price and that they sell such bottles separately.

 

At least I write with the ink and the ink is the product I'm interested in.

 

And they were able to sell the big ink bottle also for a reasonable price...... How comes? ....

 

Like I mentioned earlier, or rather agreed with another poster, the bottles are EXPENSIVE. Nobody else in the world is using these types of bottles. So the production runs are going to be relatively small. A friend of mine had been in contact with several glass plants trying to get some bottles made, and just the initial start up costs for making molds and whatever were in the upper thousands of dollars. I want to say closer to around 10 or 12 thousand, but it's been a while since we talked about it. Then the number of bottles produced after mold making influenced the cost as well. So size of bottles by Akkerman don't really affect the price, it's the other stuff.

Although I really have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

but for bottles that are similar - there's a soda pop that some of my students have been drinking with a pinched neck and marble, but the marble doesn't act as a stopper. Wondering if something similar to that is cheaper... though the bottler there is probably making thousands and thousands of these bottles at at time.

[Pterodactylus]

Ok, I can understand and accept that, if for you the bottle is the product and not the ink, than it's ok.

For me as said the ink is the product.

 

You are right many inks are extremely overpriced, as it is as you said basically colored water.

 

And yes, I think the R&K inks are fairly priced.

About 7 - 7,5 € per 100ml retail price seems at least for me really fair for a high quality product made in Germany.