Improving Handwriting, "writing With The Shoulder"

[why789]

Hello all!!

 

This will be my first post in this amazing community! I do not own my own FP just yet, I want to improve my handwriting with a regular pen first before I start learning that beautiful chancery italic script I've been drooling over ^_^ haha!

 

Now, I have a question for all of you handwriting geniuses! I've been working on "writing with my shoulder" as said in PaperPenalia for the past week and I see a definite improvement in my hand writing, however, I notice that I am still using my fingers a little bit (especially when working with small curves, "e" "a" "g" "h" etc..). I used to have my wrist firmly planted on the paper and I only moved it when moving onto the next word, however, now I have it lifted off the paper (or very lightly touching) and my weight is now rested lightly onto my little finger. My hand is always moving with the letters, along with my fingers as well. Is this "correct"? Should my fingers NOT be moving at all?

 

I do hope I'm "working in the right direction" with this! I do not have any teachers nor books to work out of Looking forward to getting started on italics soon!

 

Thank you all!

why789

 

[bassmannate]

I find that it's ok to move your fingers for some of the finer control. The whole idea behind Palmer Method writing is that you're moving the bulk of the movement from your fingers, which are controlled by smaller muscles, to the arm which is controlled by larger muscles and so, you won't get tired so easily. That being said, your fingers will have much finer motor control to make small corrections as you write.

[Randal6393]

Sounds as if you are well on your way to improving your handwriting. Yes, finger movement is very much a part of the holistic movement of handwriting. (Just coined that, have no idea what I mean by it.) By the way, Welcome to FPN! Hope you enjoy your stay here. The type of movement you are working on helps with writing, no matter what the hand. Although, it seems to have special meaning for American cursive hands.

 

Hope you enjoy the italic studies. If you google italic handwriting, you will get a lot of information on the script. You may start your practice with a pencil or ballpoint. Pencil works better, better feedback than a ballpoint. Italic has been my working hand for some thirty years, still learning more about it.

 

Best of luck to you,

[Nanny]

Italic has been what I have instructed to children and adults for many, many years. Among my mentors, were Tom Gourdie, Sheila Waters and Gunnlaugur SE Briem. (Google any of them.) All would agree that the whole arm movement is appropriate for copperplate, but not for italic. Use your fingers, primarily your index finger to drive the pen. The hand plays a small part too. Rest the hand on its ulnar side, small finger side.

 

 

[Ghost Plane]

Let your hand rest on its side. Ideally it's a very relaxed pose. Drape the pen across the webbing between thumb & forefinger so that it falls naturally to its sweet spot. Gently close your thumb, index & middle finger so the pen is resting naturally across the joint of the middle with thumb & index barely touching it. If I could lean over & snatch it out of your hand, your grip is loose enough.

 

Now, using the muscle of your forearm as a pivot, sketch large circles on the page, the size of an egg. Wide sweeping motions using your forearm and wrist more than your fingers. The fingers are simply there to provide support for the pen as the side of your hand sweeps the motion. Gradually turn the sketched circles into ovals. Don't worry about moving forward on the page until you're comfortable with the motions. Slowly make the ovals smaller & narrower, keeping the broad sketching motions rolling off the muscle of your forearm and the side of your wrist.

 

It takes years of practice, so don't be in a rush. My dad began teaching me at four. But it's a restful style of writing & won't cramp if you have a good fountain pen. Absolutely no pressure on the page, just the weight of the pen doing the work.

[Mickey]

I'm with Randal6393 on this one, I don't even mind the use of the word holistic (I gurn in appreciation), though my preference is toward describing 'whole arm', 'from the shoulder' methods as methods 'not employing the fingers to the exclusion of all else.' As for the fingers, let alone any single finger, being the prime mover in italic, copperplate, Spencerian, et. al., my opinion is unchanged. Nope! You might consult https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/256936-a-modest-italic-experiment/ where I prove that acceptable Italic can be produced without ANY contribution from the forefinger (or the wrist).

 

My advice is to avoid any approach which has your hand anchored to the page: the less pressure between any part of the pen or hand and the paper, the better. (Using the muscles of the forearm, per Ghost Plan, is perfectly acceptable, even desirable.) This typically means allowing the hand to glide on the tips (nails, sides, etc.) of the last finger or two.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Mickey

[bassmannate]

Yup. Whole arm works well for Specerian and such. For Italic, I'm with Lloyd Reynolds on this one. You should be using your wrist mostly. I've spent too many days in school writing with my fingers and hand hurting from writing with fingers. Even Reynolds doesn't advocate using your wrist exclusively. If a form is large enough, he says to work from the shoulder.

[Randal6393]

Yup. Whole arm works well for Specerian and such. For Italic, I'm with Lloyd Reynolds on this one. You should be using your wrist mostly. I've spent too many days in school writing with my fingers and hand hurting from writing with fingers. Even Reynolds doesn't advocate using your wrist exclusively. If a form is large enough, he says to work from the shoulder.

Mr. Reynolds also advocates keep the writing light and free. IMHO, that applies to handwriting in general. Just barely touching the paper, as mentioned by various sources.

 

When starting a new hand, there is a natural tendency to overcontrol the pen. Tightness and cramping in the fingers may result. As one becomes more confident in the hand, one relaxes and "just writes". Confidence shows up as a more natural line, less tension in the writing. And, isn't that the goal we all seek?

 

Enjoy,

[why789]

Wow! Thank you for all of the replies and information!

 

So, if I have understood everybody correctly, what moves and what doesn't is not essential for writing italic. What's more important is to have the hand completely relaxed on the paper with the forearm/wrist moving with the letters. In other words, not anchoring the wrist on the page.

 

Also, fingers/wrist and forearm all contribute to writing, not just one/two exclusively however all of them working together.

 

Have I understood everybody correctly??

 

Thank you!

why789

[Randal6393]

Wow! Thank you for all of the replies and information!

 

So, if I have understood everybody correctly, what moves and what doesn't is not essential for writing italic. What's more important is to have the hand completely relaxed on the paper with the forearm/wrist moving with the letters. In other words, not anchoring the wrist on the page.

 

Also, fingers/wrist and forearm all contribute to writing, not just one/two exclusively however all of them working together.

 

Have I understood everybody correctly??

 

Thank you!

why789

Yep, you got it. Best of luck to you, be sure to make it fun.

[why789]

Excellent! Thank you all for your help!

 

Now, regarding learning Italic... Due to my location (central Mexico) it is VERY diffilcult to order anything online. I have found this link (handwriting repair) which seems to be very complete. Does anyone have any links to any online worksheets, pdfs that I can use?

 

-why789

[Randal6393]

Yep, Briem is a good place to start.

 

To the right on his opening page, he links to Arrighi's Operina with English subtitles. The classic of classics for formal italic, after 30 years I still study it once in a while to remind me what italic really is. There are other books on italic calligraphy on the internet -- just google it and have fun.

 

Enjoy,

[Blue_Moon]

It's hard to do. I feel like when I'm writing with my arm/shoulder rather than my fingers/hand, the lettering becomes horrible/illegible. I guess that's where practice comes in.

[GClef]

A good post on arm movement/writing:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/217007-where-to-start-arm-movement-or-letter-shapes/?p=2282643

Edited January 29, 2014 by GClef

[isoc]

It's hard to do. I feel like when I'm writing with my arm/shoulder rather than my fingers/hand, the lettering becomes horrible/illegible. I guess that's where practice comes in.

After about 3 weeks of practice and drills, I am not using my fingers so much any more, but seem to be relying more on wrist action, while my fingers remain mostly still. When I try writing with arm and shoulder, things get awkward and shakey, and although I can keep light pressure on the paper, any extra friction anywhere with my two fingers resting gently on the page, or my forearm on the desk, and things get really distorted.

 

I have also been thinking about the whole thing: if finger movement prevents "ease, rapidity and endurance" (Palmer) how come I use my fingers when playing a flute or organ or piano? What's so unique about writing?

 

That said, I'm still "committed" to the "holistic movement."

 

- Ted

[kaolin]

After about 3 weeks of practice and drills, I am not using my fingers so much any more, but seem to be relying more on wrist action, while my fingers remain mostly still. When I try writing with arm and shoulder, things get awkward and shakey, and although I can keep light pressure on the paper, any extra friction anywhere with my two fingers resting gently on the page, or my forearm on the desk, and things get really distorted.

 

I have also been thinking about the whole thing: if finger movement prevents "ease, rapidity and endurance" (Palmer) how come I use my fingers when playing a flute or organ or piano? What's so unique about writing?

 

That said, I'm still "committed" to the "holistic movement."

 

- Ted

 

Here is my take on the finger vs arm question. What really separates finger movement from arm movement is the range of motion. In business writing the range of motion is often quite large when it comes to capitals and ascender/descender. But more importantly, because we try to write without lifting the pen, we should really consider the range of motion required for writing the whole word (or at least 4-5 letters). Using only finger motion, it is impossible to write a whole word without lifting pen or sacrificing form.

[Kathleen48]

Italic has been what I have instructed to children and adults for many, many years. Among my mentors, were Tom Gourdie, Sheila Waters and Gunnlaugur SE Briem. (Google any of them.) All would agree that the whole arm movement is appropriate for copperplate, but not for italic. Use your fingers, primarily your index finger to drive the pen. The hand plays a small part too. Rest the hand on its ulnar side, small finger side.

 

 

 

This describes me also - some of those people were also my teachers. I remember Tom Gourdie saying that it was called HANDwriting for a reason. For Italic or Italic cursive, you do not use your entire arm, nor do you only push the pen around with your fingers. It's your hand that moves on the paper on the small finger side.

[Mickey]

I have also been thinking about the whole thing: if finger movement prevents "ease, rapidity and endurance" (Palmer) how come I use my fingers when playing a flute or organ or piano? What's so unique about writing?

 

If you're using just your fingers (the muscles in your forearm) to play the piano or organ, you're inviting an RSI. You might Google 'weight of arm' and learn that the 'whole arm' concept is not confined to hand writing. As for the flute, finger movement is predominantly along the digits' most natural lines of movement (opening and closing the hand), the pad and key travel is relatively short, and the moving mass is small.

 

As for what is unique about writing, nothing, but the large lateral component requires fingers (in a fingers only approach) to do substantial work in directions not well supported by their structure. Imagine playing Chopin with your wrists shackled in one place.

[Mickey]

 

This describes me also - some of those people were also my teachers. I remember Tom Gourdie saying that it was called HANDwriting for a reason. For Italic or Italic cursive, you do not use your entire arm, nor do you only push the pen around with your fingers. It's your hand that moves on the paper on the small finger side.

 

Of course, that begs the question "what moves your hand?" The real question is one of focus and emphasis. Again I quote Galileo, 'eppur si mouve.' The rest is religious dogma and there's plenty of it on both sides, most nearly all of it wrong in some essential way.

[Kathleen48]

 

Of course, that begs the question "what moves your hand?" The real question is one of focus and emphasis. Again I quote Galileo, 'eppur si mouve.' The rest is religious dogma and there's plenty of it on both sides, most nearly all of it wrong in some essential way.

 

Basically the hand flexes at the wrist. The forearm does not get involved with pushing the pen around. It only moves to get out of the way when you are writing a long line. However, this is just for Italic type writing and lettering. I have only played around with Copperplate and have never studied it seriously.

 

You point is taken however, there is plenty of dogma around to tell you what to do (and what not to do). I found Tom Gourdie's explanation the easiest and simplest to understand (back in the 70s) and I still write that way today. I can say that I don't get "death grip" finger cramps from writing too much.