Parker Vacumatic Maxima?

[kirchh]

On the other hand good thing you said Maxima -I say nothing because Mr. Kirchheimer says that the Maxima always have wider band ( I say such pens with narrower cap bands are Majors. Kirchh Posted it on 14 February 2014 - 21:15)

 

Lazard:

 

I see that you have edited your post in a desperate effort to cover up your lie.

 

You've now added a quotation of mine to pretend I said Maximas always have wider bands. Of course, you didn't provide the entire quotation, because if you had, it would have exposed your lie. And, of course, you didn't include a link to the post in which the quotation appears; you are probably hoping that nobody tries to find that post, because if they do, you know that they will discover your deceit.

 

Unfortunately for you, I will supply the link to the post, as well as the complete quotation, so that everyone on FPN who reads this thread will learn how extremely dishonest you are.

 

Here is the link to the post.

 

Here is the complete quote which exposes how dishonest you are:

 

 

You claim that slender 135mm-long pens with double vertical lines adjacent to the indicia are all Slender Maximas.

 

I say such pens with narrower cap bands are Majors.

 

As can be plainly seen, I never said that the Maxima always has a wider band., You lied about that.

 

It is really quite incredible how dishonest you are willing to be to avoid admitting that you were wrong. But it's very educational to observe.

 

--Daniel

Edited February 17, 2014 by kirchh

[Lazard 20]

Self-explanatory.

http://s3.postimg.org/tksvfet0j/1942_maxima_banda_estrecha.jpg

[Lazard 20]

Another ringed vacs 135 mm long contemporary of "51" vacs and MADE IN USA as usual. This one golden pearl and from my collection.

If Parker's name was Major -I say nothing, I query- , why Parker mounted on them the chevron band with double vertical like the Maxima and not with simple vertical as Major?

 

http://s28.postimg.org/jaajwap7x/1942_135_mm_vs_127_mm.jpg

This matter is finished. I hope to meet FPN readers newly in another thread. Good evening there.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Lazard 20

[kirchh]

 

Self-explanatory.

http://s3.postimg.org/tksvfet0j/1942_maxima_banda_estrecha.jpg

 

 

This pen has nothing to do with any question in this entire thread. The pen depicted is the larger-diameter Maxima. This discussion concerns only the thinner, 135mm-long pen with narrow cap band, which you wrongly claim Parker called the Slender Maxima, but which they actually called the Major.

 

Where is your retraction and apology for lying about what I wrote?

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Another ringed vacs 135 mm long contemporary of "51" vacs and MADE IN USA as usual. This one golden pearl and from my collection.

If Parker's name was Major -I say nothing, I query- , why Parker mounted on them the chevron band with double vertical like the Maxima and not with simple vertical as Major?

 

http://s28.postimg.org/jaajwap7x/1942_135_mm_vs_127_mm.jpg

 

Let's agree on what model this is not.

 

Parker did not call this model "Slender Maxima."

 

We agree on that, because we agree that the Slender Maxima was discontinued; there is no Slender Maxima in 1942.

 

So, we agree that the pen you show was not called "Slender Maxima" by Parker.

 

Right?

 

Or do you still claim Parker called this pen "Slender Maxima," even though there is no Slender Maxima in 1942 because, as you agree, it was already discontinued?

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

If Parker's name was Major -I say nothing, I query- , why Parker mounted on them the chevron band with double vertical like the Maxima and not with simple vertical as Major?

 

Let me point out the obvious logical fallacy you have used here.

 

You are assuming what you are trying to prove.

 

You are assuming that Parker only used the "||" band on Maximas, and that they did not use the "||" band on Majors.

 

You then use that assumption to try to prove that pens with the "||' band, therefore, cannot be Majors, because Majors don't have that band.

 

This is called "circular reasoning," or "begging the question." You can look up those terms if they are unfamiliar to you. They represent logical fallacies; invalid reasoning.

 

But you cannot assume that which you are trying to prove; it invalidates your argument completely.

 

Please re-state your question after removing the baseless assumption.

 

Also, please tell us what the Parker model names were for the two pens shown below:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Long_Major/Long_Major_and_Slender_Maxima.jpg

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Lazard -

 

Please show us a stickered example of a slender, 135mm-long Vacumatic with narrower band.

 

The sticker will identify whether Parker called the model the Major or the Slender Maxima.

 

I am looking forward to seeing this picture.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

You haven't established that Parker had a Slender Maxima in its line in 1942.

 

False. Even I do not want to establish that. I wanted and here we are determined that in 1942 ("dark year" for ringed vacs) there was a ringed Vacumatic 135 mm total long, 61 mm cap long, 13.5 mm. cap diameter and narrow double vertical chevron band that some collectors mistakenly called Long Major .

 

Thank you for finally conceding that you did not establish that Parker had a Slender Maxima in 1942.

 

Therefore, you can no longer claim that the slender, 135mm-long 1942 pen with narrower cap band was called "Slender Maxima," because you do not even want to establish that there was such a model in the line in 1942.

 

Now we are making progress.

 

What do you think Parker called that model, which you now concede cannot be a Slender Maxima, because you do not even want to establish that Parker had a Slender Maxima in its line in 1942?

 

You claim that slender 135mm-long pens with double vertical lines adjacent to the indicia are all Slender Maximas.

 

No, you're very wrong again. In this point my conclusions and certainties I keep with myself. I'm just undoing misunderstandings about "Long Majors" and fixing the eyes of readers to aspects for them to form their own opinion.

 

You're lying. Again. Fortunately, the proof of your dishonesty is easily found.

 

Here's what you claimed:

 

"In general, Slender Maxima of the '40s as the present one do not have broad band nor nib Maxima nor feed channel width "W" engraved. You can verify that your Slender Maxima has "||" two vertical bars limiting the band engraving area -only 1 in the Major´s normally and 2 in the Maxima´s as my personal contribution to Pendom-."

 

And you claimed this:

 

"Vertical "bars" limiting the band engraving area. "|" one Major vs "||" two verticals Slender"

 

And you claimed this:

 

"Parker therefore easily distinguish the Maxima in length and cap band, It's easy since the chevron band "closed" is imposed; Maxima -135 mm and "two verticals" closing the engraving zone chevron band - vs Major -127 mm and "one vertical" closing the engraving zone chevron band-."

 

Then, you said this:

 

"Some nice examples of Maximas (Slender if we want last name) of 135 mm length, 13.5 mm diameter in cap band and the chevron band "Lazard double vertical". Taken in a fully aseptic sampling of virtually all Vacumatics auctioned in Ebay during January 2014. Each one has about 135 mm. and, of course, "vertical double" chevron band. If it awakens your curiosity, you can entertain with this matter in the next PenShow that you visit... and defend the honor of his real and beautiful name -Maxima, Slender Maxima if you so wish"

 

And this:

 

"Maximas and Majors continue to distinguish the "vertical double" or "vertical simple" in the chevron band."

 

And you claimed,

 

"the fact that we know it was called Maxima all 135 mm, both 15 mm in diameter as 13.5 mm, occupy the chevron band 'vertical double',"

 

And you claimed:

 

"I am demonstrating that they, Maxima 15 mm diameter and Maxima of 13,5 mm diameter, in the "ringed vacumatic dark ages" share the same band with "||" whereas Major only have one."

 

And you claimed:

 

"Maxima 135 mm total length, 61 mm cap length and '||' band vs Major 127 mm total length, 58 mm cap length and only '|'"

 

Your repertoire of deception is impressive. But easily exposed.

 

 

I appreciate that you recognize my contribution about "||" band ...

 

You're forgetful. Someone else posted on FPN about the "||" band before you brought it up.

 

FPN is very, very important and very interesting, but there are Pendom behind FPN´s borders too.

 

You specifically claimed that I recognized your contribution about the band with 2 verticals. I pointed out that you forgot that someone else posted about this before you did, so your conclusion that I recognized that observation as being yours was incorrect. I don't recognize your observation about the existence of those bands as being original; I was aware of it before you mentioned it here.

 

None of those pens is from 1942.

 

At the bottom you get what you want, from 1942. I hope your apology.

 

Thank you for implicitly conceding that you lied about those pens on eBay that you claimed were from 1942.

 

But you really should retract that claim. It's embarrassing for you to say a pen is from 1942 when it's really from 1946, or for you to say another pen is also from 1942 when it's really from 1947. Are you really so desperate to support your failed claim that you feel that you have to resort to fabricating evidence? Sad.

 

I am pleased that future readers can read this thread when they search for your name, so they can judge your credibility.

 

--Daniel

Edited February 17, 2014 by kirchh

[kirchh]

This matter is finished. I hope to meet FPN readers newly in another thread. Good evening there.

 

This is what is referred to as "sticking the flounce," though I'm not sure the phrase will translate.

 

But this is excellent news; it means that I can now summarize the facts of the matter without the tiresome digressions caused by Lazard's ever-increasing torrent of false statements. My thanks to FPN for allowing his posts, and my responses, to stand, so as to form a valuable record.

 

Prior to late 1938, Parker's Vacumatic model called the Major was distinctly shorter than, and had a smaller nib than, the same-diameter Slender Maxima. The Slender Maxima also had a wider cap band. The Major sold for less -- $8.75 vs. $10.00. Both pens were double-jeweled. In late 1938, Parker lengthened the Major to the same size as the Slender Maxima, but it still had a smaller nib and narrower band than the Slender Maxima, so the models continued to be sensibly distinguished in the line. From that point onward, until the Slender Maxima was discontinued, the Major and the Slender Maxima were the same length, but the Major had the smaller nib and narrower cap band. The longer Major continued to be made for about another year in single-jewel configuration after the Slender Maxima was discontinued, and then the Major returned to its previous, shorter length. The proof of this increase in length of the Major model is that examples of Vacumatics from this time period with Major attributes (smaller nib, narrower cap band), but of the shorter length, are not found, but the longer pen has been found with stickers indicating that it is the Major.

 

Lazard has claimed that the Major never got longer, and that there are shorter pens from this period, and that he even has many examples of them; he says that these shorter pens are the Majors from that era. However, he has failed to post even a single picture of such a pen. In addition, as mentioned earlier, there are stickered examples known of the longer pen with the smaller nib and the narrower cap band, and the stickers indicate that the pens are Majors, not Slender Maximas. Therefore, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Major made during this period was shorter (there aren't any), and there is ample evidence that the Major made during this period was longer (because there aren't any shorter ones, and stickered longer ones are found).

 

Lazard does agree that during this period, there were two slender pens in the longer length: the one with the smaller nib and narrower band, and the one with the larger nib and the wider band. He claims that Parker called both these versions -- which he agrees were offered simultaneously for several years until the Slender Maxima was discontinued -- Slender Maximas, which were $10 pens.

 

So, Lazard claims there were the following three configurations offered simultaneously for several years:

 

1. A slender, ~127mm-long pen with narrower cap band and smaller nib, which Parker sold as the Major for $8.75. Lazard cannot produce even a single example of such a pen, which he says was made for several years, though he says there are thousands of pictures on the Internet, and also that he has many of them in his collection.

 

2. A slender, ~135mm-long pen with narrower cap band and smaller nib, which Parker sold as the Slender Maxima for $10. (These pens are commonly found, and knowledgeable collectors know that they were the pen sold by Parker as the Major.)

 

3. A slender, ~135mm-long pen with wider cap band and larger nib, which Parker also sold as the Slender Maxima for $10. On this we agree; this pen was sold by Parker as the Slender Maxima.

 

Given that even Lazard cannot produce these examples of the shorter Majors he claims exist from this period (after I exposed his deceitful attempts to fabricate evidence, of course), despite the Major being a very common model, it is clear that only the second two models exist. It follows that the pen with the narrower cap band and the smaller nib is really the one sold as the Major (and stickered examples confirm this), and the pen with the wider cap band and the larger nib is the model called the Slender Maxima by Parker.

 

Lazard also tried to claim that in 1942, the larger-diameter Maxima's cap band was made narrower, and that therefore the Slender Maxima's cap band must also have been made narrower. His problem here is that he does not dispute that the Slender Maxima was already discontinued. Lazard also claims that at some point -- he doesn't say when -- the Slender Maxima's nib was made smaller, to be the same size as the Major's. He has identified many examples of pens from 1939, 1940, and 1941 with the narrower cap band and smaller nib as being pens called Slender Maxima by Parker. His identification is clearly incorrect on both counts; after all, it was he who said the Maxima's cap band wasn't made narrower until 1942, and the existence of pens with the wider band and larger nib during those same years of 1939, 1940, and 1941 proves that Parker did not simply change the configuration of the Slender Maxima. Lazard has offered no explanation for these glaring contradictions.

 

The misidentification of the longer Majors from late-'38 though 1942 or early '43 as Slender Maximas is a very common error among collectors who are not particularly knowledgeable about this period in Parker's history, But the facts are clear, and the story is really quite simple. Slender Maximas have wider cap bands and larger nibs than Majors. Despite repeated claims by Lazard, not one item of physical evidence has been produced to challenge this (though some have been fabricated!).

 

--Daniel

Edited February 17, 2014 by kirchh

[kirchh]

Some others vacs. ±127 mm. long taken from Ebay today (as I said there are everyday).

 

1942 1942 1942

 

As I explained earlier, you are attempting to perpetrate a falsehood here by pretending these pens are from 1942. The eBay auctions to which you've linked will eventually become unavailable, so I wanted to preserve the proof of your deception by adding screen shots that will remain viewable for FPN readers long into the future so they can judge your honesty.

 

Here's the first pen that you claim is a 127mm-long Vacumatic from 1942:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Long_Major/Lazard_Lies_About_1942_Vacumatic_1.jpg

 

The description states, "...a single jewel, which dates the pen to post-1942." It goes on to state that the date code "could be T7 or just 7."

 

Therefore, you were dishonest when you presented this pen as an example of a 127mm-long slender pen from 1942.

 

The second pen is even more shamelessly presented; you, of course, know that it is likely a Frankenpen of some sort (if it is correctly dated by the seller), because it has a blind cap with a jewel:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Long_Major/Lazard_Lies_About_1942_Vacumatic_2.jpg

 

The last pen you attempt to pass off as being from 1942 is this one:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Long_Major/Lazard_Lies_About_1942_Vacumatic_3.jpg

 

Apparently, you were hoping that no one would check your link and see that the title of the item says "CIRCA 1942," or may you were hoping that FPN readers don't know that "circa" means "around" the date given. In this case, the pen is from 1946 as indicated by the date code.

 

I do want to note that you stated that you owned many 127mm-long slender Vacumatics with narrower band from 1941, and that you would post photographs of them. From the fact that never could post those pictures, it has become very clear that you made that up.

 

--Daniel

[Brian-McQueen]

 

Also, please tell us what the Parker model names were for the two pens shown below:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Long_Major/Long_Major_and_Slender_Maxima.jpg

 

--Daniel

 

Kirchh, I fear that this Lazard guy must be more stubborn and misinformed than good ol' Brando090. I just read over some of this ridiculous conversation, and this picture is what stood out the most. An azure Slender Maxima?! I only recall ever seeing or hearing of one of those before... nice pen!

[kirchh]

 

Kirchh, I fear that this Lazard guy must be more stubborn and misinformed than good ol' Brando090. I just read over some of this ridiculous conversation, and this picture is what stood out the most. An azure Slender Maxima?! I only recall ever seeing or hearing of one of those before... nice pen!

 

I must sadly agree with respect to the stubbornness, and that can be a fatal flaw in a researcher, as we see here, where it leads not just to the irrational support of proven-wrong conclusions, but also to the employment of dishonesty in defense of that conclusion when all else seems to have failed.

 

Thanks for the compliment on the pen; this one is likely the same example as the one you had seen previously. I am lucky to own it.

 

--Daniel

[OcalaFlGuy]

I only have one question remaining myself.

 

At what point in the beating of a dead horse does one ether get Enough horse guts on them or just get tired enough to stop?

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

[georges zaslavsky]

so lazard is basically a non parker expert ??

[kirchh]

A follow-up: Lazard has finally conceded that the collector term "Long Major" is, in fact, accurate, and, by implication, he has at last conceded that his core claim in this thread that the pens for which that term is used are not Slender Maximas:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/281497-vac-third-generation-but-double-jewel/?p=3224177

 

--Daniel