Iron-Gall Ink And Bleach

[josera]

Hi!

 

I've had some troubles recently with the post, because due to the water, the address of some letters were out of the paper and they didin't reach their destination.

 

I bought some Iron-gall Ink to solve this problem: I bough Rohrer & Klinger Salix and Pelikan Blue-Black (Even officially it's not an iron-gall ink, I've read that it contains a little bit of touch or Iron-gall).

 

I have perform a couple of tests:

1. With water: The resistance of both inks against water is good in general. In comparison Royal Blue and Black from R&K was removed from the paper after some time.

2. With Bleach: I soak the pater test in Bleach, and after some times, all the inks were missed!

 

I thought that the iron-gallic inks were inviolable and permanents and thus resistants to Bleach.

 

Do you know if there any iron-gallic ink resistant to Bleach? Should I try nano-pigments or Noddlers inks?

 

Thanks!

[Bo Bo Olson]

Well, do not ....do not ....do not use bleach to clean pens even if they had iron gall in them. Use Vinegar 1-10 when water doesn't do the trick, which it will mostly if the pen is cleaned ever six weeks.

 

 

Guess you have to go to Noodler's Warden inks....they are bleach proof....and anything else proof.

[josera]

I don't use the bleack to clean pens. I've used the bleach to test the ink and to see their resistance to it.

 

Only Noodler's are "bullet proof"?

[Bo Bo Olson]

I chase shading inks, and have got to get the other half of the Euro 100, before I can think of English inks....much less Noodlers. I'm sure there are other Euro inks like Diamine Register and a couple of expensive permanent inks by DA.

ESSR (better, cheaper and more than Diamine register ink) is the iron gall ink, or R&K iron gall inks are the only inks I have that should be check proof.

 

We do bank transfers over here. I write perhaps two checks a year from here to the states, where I have a check taking bank, also. So bullet proof is not heavy in my needs.

I've learned to keep liquids far from my writing....being the pre-ball point generation more or less....and the black ink we used back in B&W TV was homework childproof out side their cloths.

 

It is good to have fun two toned shading inks, and vivid stoggy mono-tone bullet proof inks.

[scrivelry]

I think the problem of bleach removing the ink from the paper is mostly a problem if you intend to bleach your writing.

 

Random water gets on anything - I do worry about addresses on envelopes myself - but random bleach just does not happen with the same frequency, in my experience.

 

Now, if there is something else you were concerned about removing the ink besides water and you tested with bleach because you thought the bleach was closer to whatever that was, there might still be some issue, but around here bleach does not happen willy-nilly the way good old "oops-just-spilled-my-seltzer/coffee/tea/soda/" does, so I personally see it as less of a problem.

 

T

 

T

[josera]

Dear Scrivelry,

 

yes, I'm with you. Usually in your daily written you don't need to face against a risk of spilling bleach over your papers. Normally for 99 % of writtens it's more than enough with normal iron-gall ink (For example for the post).

 

But recently I've read something about Check Washing, that thiefs are able to remove the ink of the paper with some chemical products (Like Acetone). So my next question, for such application, which ink would be perfect and 100 % safer against all this chemicals? (Resistant against bleach, acetone, etc.)

[Randwulfr]

I am new to the Fountain Pen Network, so I apologize if I am repeating information posted in the past re: iron gall inks. What I can share with you from my own experience (having learned something about Renaissance ink-making as a scholar of c16th English manuscript poetry, and having held many such manuscripts in my hands), is that no small measure of this ink's "permanency" is a function of the acids it contains (not only tannic acid from the oak galls themselves, but also from uric acid (yes...Shakespeare and his contemporaries would have mixed a bit of urine into the powdered galls)). This, in turn, eats into the paper's surface--sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. (I have turned the leaves of more than one Renaissance MS to see spots where the ink has actually burned through the page over time (and this was not cheap wood pulp paper--they used all-rag paper then)). So my suspicion is that iron gall ink is more durable in part b/c of the actual pigment, but also in part to the fact that it cuts into the paper a bit (maybe thereby also causing the pigment to infiltrate deeper layers of the paper?)--so you have nib carving into a soft surface and then dilute acids carrying the job on (even after the ink is dry).

Edited November 17, 2013 by Randwulfr

[recluse]

If you're interested in more than water resistance, there's always Noodler's Black.

[Tweel]

Iron gall doesn't resist bleach. Rather, you can test for its presence in ink with bleach -- the dye component of the ink will disappear, and any iron will oxidize and leave a yellowish trace of rust on the paper:

 

BTW, when I tried this with Pelikan blue-black a year or two ago, I did get a faint iron trace.

[josera]

Then Noodler's Black is bleach-proof?

 

Another question, what about Platinum / Sailor nano-pigment ink?

[RobbW]

I am new to the Fountain Pen Network, so I apologize if I am repeating information posted in the past re: iron gall inks. What I can share with you from my own experience (having learned something about Renaissance ink-making as a scholar of c16th English manuscript poetry, and having held many such manuscripts in my hands), is that no small measure of this ink's "permanency" is a function of the acids it contains (not only tannic acid from the oak galls themselves, but also from uric acid (yes...Shakespeare and his contemporaries would have mixed a bit of urine into the powdered galls)). This, in turn, eats into the paper's surface--sometimes a little, sometimes a lot. (I have turned the leaves of more than one Renaissance MS to see spots where the ink has actually burned through the page over time (and this was not cheap wood pulp paper--they used all-rag paper then)). So my suspicion is that iron gall ink is more durable in part b/c of the actual pigment, but also in part to the fact that it cuts into the paper a bit (maybe thereby also causing the pigment to infiltrate deeper layers of the paper?)--so you have nib carving into a soft surface and then dilute acids carrying the job on (even after the ink is dry).

Historic formulations of iron-gall inks are different from contemporary formulations. Besides being more consistent and containing just enough acid to react with the iron, contemporary inks are made with HCl, which offgasses as the ink dries. Historically, sulphuric acid remained in the ink and continued to eat into the paper. That's why centuries-old paper contains holes where the ink lay.

[thedeacon]

I have to ask, why are you so concerned about the effect of bleach on ink? If it is just curiosity, I understand. I just can't think of a scenario where it would be a major concern. Even when I did my undergrad work in chemistry and grad work for my MD, PhD I didn't worry this much about the effect of caustic substances. I just kept my written work out of the danger zone. I promise you can name any FP ink and I can come up with a substance that will effect it. It may destroy the paper, but it will effect the ink as well. Again, I'm just curious.

[ddustinn]

Noodler's Black is bleach-proof. If I remember correctly, a group of scientists were able to remove Noodler's Black with lasers of some sort, so he created the Warden's series that resisted that as well.

[dcwaites]

Iron-gall's main property is that it leaves tiny particles of black Iron III Oxide embedded in the matrix of what you are writing on. Because it is an oxide, it is chemically stable. However, bleach does fade the particles (whether it dissolves them, or changes the chemistry so the iron is no longer black, perhaps a current, practising inorganic chemist can enlighten us).

 

Neither bleach, nor any of the other 'normal' chemicals, will fade or remove the cellulose-reactive dye inks (Noodler's Bulletproof, PR Invincible, perhaps the new Mont Blanc permanent inks???) or the pigmented inks.

[josera]

I have to ask, why are you so concerned about the effect of bleach on ink? If it is just curiosity, I understand. I just can't think of a scenario where it would be a major concern. Even when I did my undergrad work in chemistry and grad work for my MD, PhD I didn't worry this much about the effect of caustic substances. I just kept my written work out of the danger zone. I promise you can name any FP ink and I can come up with a substance that will effect it. It may destroy the paper, but it will effect the ink as well. Again, I'm just curious.

 

I was wondering just in case of "Check Washing". For 99,9 % of applications is more than enough with normal iron-gallic inks (Like water in the post, etc.)

[thedeacon]

 

I was wondering just in case of "Check Washing". For 99,9 % of applications is more than enough with normal iron-gallic inks (Like water in the post, etc.)

Ahhhh, got it. I now remember reading that in another post, but I conveniently forgot. That makes perfect sense, just didn't think about it. I haven't written a check in so long it didn't click. I know many people still do, so it would be a concern. As others have suggested, some of the Noodler's inks are almost indestructible.

[scrivelry]

Dear Scrivelry,

 

yes, I'm with you. Usually in your daily written you don't need to face against a risk of spilling bleach over your papers. Normally for 99 % of writtens it's more than enough with normal iron-gall ink (For example for the post).

 

But recently I've read something about Check Washing, that thiefs are able to remove the ink of the paper with some chemical products (Like Acetone). So my next question, for such application, which ink would be perfect and 100 % safer against all this chemicals? (Resistant against bleach, acetone, etc.)

Fascinating!

 

I had thought that crooks were concentrating on credit card theft, but who says there is only one kind of crook...

 

Yes, clearly one would want to make this as difficult as possible!

 

T

[Laura N]

Dear Scrivelry,

 

yes, I'm with you. Usually in your daily written you don't need to face against a risk of spilling bleach over your papers. Normally for 99 % of writtens it's more than enough with normal iron-gall ink (For example for the post).

 

But recently I've read something about Check Washing, that thiefs are able to remove the ink of the paper with some chemical products (Like Acetone). So my next question, for such application, which ink would be perfect and 100 % safer against all this chemicals? (Resistant against bleach, acetone, etc.)

 

Your check company should use a paper that is designed to resist this. This isn't something to worry about.

[MarkTrain]

Iron-gall's main property is that it leaves tiny particles of black Iron III Oxide embedded in the matrix of what you are writing on. Because it is an oxide, it is chemically stable. However, bleach does fade the particles (whether it dissolves them, or changes the chemistry so the iron is no longer black, perhaps a current, practising inorganic chemist can enlighten us).

 

 

The iron gall pigment that forms on paper is most likely not just iron oxide. It most likely a iron complexed quinoid polymer. (See "Ageing of Laboratory Irongall inks Studied by Reflectance Spectrometry", Restaurator,1999 151-166.) Such a complex is expected to be strongly light absorbing and a dark brown. It is also known that quinoid polymers (e.g. melanin) are readily bleached.

 

Mark

[fiberdrunk]

I seem to remember somewhere that pharmacist here on FPN did a test on his homebrew iron gall ink (the urkundentinte one) and if I'm remembering correctly, his did stand up to bleach.

 

If you're looking for forgery and bleach-proof, Noodler's Bad Blue Heron or their other Warden series inks should fit the bill.