Learning Italic

[caliken]

Each line seems to be a different color -- do you have that many colors, or did you create mixes, or ...?

 

Constance :

 

I have around a dozen or so basic colours, and using a small container and an eyedropper, it's very easy

to mix gradual modifications as you write.

 

Thanks for your interest.

 

Ken

[akustyk]

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Letteringraduatedcolour700.jpg

 

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag32/akustyk/IMG_7781_zps12d7f2cd.jpg

[HDoug]

...

 

Have you seen the 2005 Master's Thesis from West Virginia University analyzing the transition in Michelangelo's handwriting from gothic mercantile to humanistic cursive between 1497 and 1502? It provides one example, albeit an extraordinarily interesting one.

 

I found it on the web!

 

The Influence of Humanism on the Handwriting of Michelangelo Buonarroti by Robert J. Tallaksen

 

Fascinating. With many examples of various scripts and individual letters.

 

Doug

[dms525]

David :

 

Please don't be offended by any of the following - it's meant to be constructive.

 

I think that your handwriting is consistently inconsistent. Let me explain what I mean.

 

In this little extract from your writing, there is no consistency in the slope line e.g the d in 'ascenders' and the l in 'formal'.

 

There are differences in the formation of the same letter e.g. the e in 'especially' and the e in 'flourishes'

 

There is variaion in the x height of minuscules e.g. the second e in 'especially' and the e in 'cursive'.

 

The lettering doesn't sit evenly on the baseline, but wanders.

 

"The letter is less important than the word, the word is less important than the sentence and the sentence is less important than the page"

 

You are consistent in your inconsistency. In other words, the variations I mentioned above, occur evenly throughout the page. If you had written the occasional line of exemplary Italic (in conventional terms) the effect would be to heighten awareness of the variations in the rest of the page.

 

You are consistent and this leads to an attractive page of handwriting IMO which is very easy to read at speed. It is strong and positive and is very personal to yourself. Unless you are interested in studying and developing Formal Italic, I wouldn't change a thing.

 

Many examples of handwriting are difficulty to read, and I'm sure that this has contributed greatly to it's lack of usage. I'm sure that receiving a letter from you, written in your very personal handwriting, would give a lot of pleasure to the recipient, copmpared tio the usual mechanised missive.

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Untitled-sample600.jpg

 

Ken,

 

Far from "offended," I am grateful that you took the time to provide a more detailed critique of my italic hand. It is very helpful to me to know which of my writing's abundant shortcomings are more significant in your eyes.

 

If you have any suggestions regarding the best approach to improving my hand, they would also be appreciated.

 

Best regards,

 

David

[conib]

I have around a dozen or so basic colours, and using a small container and an eyedropper, it's very easy

to mix gradual modifications as you write.

 

Thanks Ken for the explanation, much appreciated.

:-)

 

I have another question:

I'm interested in learning the Zapf cursive italic variation that you posted -- the one with underlinked ligatures, FPN exemplar Zapf Italic #71. Would this thread be an appropriate place for me to post queries about that? Or is there an already existing thread for learning that specific hand?

 

-- Constance

[Randal6393]

dms525, GClef

 

Thank you for your comments.

 

Sorry about the picture orientatation. I was trying to fix it but my Internet went out. I live way up in the north of Canada (-30 C today) and my Internet is not always reliable. I also only get 15GB a month so I have to be careful. I have started watching the Lloyd Reynolds videos but I have to space them out over a few months because of my bandwidth issues.

 

I got a couple italic nibs for my Al-Stars a few weeks ago and I love them! A few things on that sample page were written with them, the others were either with B or M nibs. I only just started moving onto writing actual sentences and I found my letter form and spacing to be much poorer than when I just do letter studies or write out the alphabet, so that has now become my focus.

 

I'm going to look into some of the books that have been suggested even though I spend too much on this hobby already. In the few months I've been at this I've bought 7 Lamy Al-Stars, a Vista, a bunch of inks and I got a Lamy 2000 for my birthday. Then again, you need a good hobby to get through these long northern winters.

 

A

 

So, when are you going to go on a paper binge? Everyone needs more paper and papers with various effects, colors, and finishes. We are nothing if not full-service enablers, here on the Fountain Pen Network.

 

On the books, fortunately many of the better books are older books and may be found on the internet. Keep on looking.

 

Enjoy,

Edited November 24, 2013 by Randal6393

[dms525]

[caliken]

David :

 

This is considerably more consistent than your previous post. A couple of suggestions, perhaps......

 

Practice on guidelines. There is no better way to sort out inconsistencies. Use all three - baseline waistline and slope line. The easiest way is to make up a basic page, either by hand or on computer, and then have it copied in faint blue or green multiple times. The x height for the nib you are using, looks perfect to me and this indicates where your waist line should be. Your writing is fairly upright and around 5 degrees from the vertical should be fine for your slope lines. For accuracy, I would place the slope lines fairly close together.

The use of those three guidelines will sort out letter height and slope. Your writing already looks good and it wouldn't take a lot of effort to move up to Formal script.

 

When learning a new script. I always use guidelines for as long as necessary - sometimes for months. Eventually, you'll be able to dispense with the slope and waist lines. . I see no point in making things unnecessarily difficult for myself, and I always use baseline guidelines for all my lettering. There are very few of us with HDoug's gift for being able to write perfectly-spaced, straight lines across the page without assistance, and I'm not one of them!

 

I look forward to your future posts.

 

Ken

Edited November 24, 2013 by caliken

[caliken]

Hope you enjoyed one or two of these historical examples.

 

Doug

 

It's good to have these wonderful. early examples of the Script on this thread, along with the brfief historical background. Thanks for posting.

 

Ken

[caliken]

 

Thanks Ken for the explanation, much appreciated.

:-)

 

I have another question:

I'm interested in learning the Zapf cursive italic variation that you posted -- the one with underlinked ligatures, FPN exemplar Zapf Italic #71. Would this thread be an appropriate place for me to post queries about that? Or is there an already existing thread for learning that specific hand?

 

-- Constance

Constance :

 

I think that it's entirely appropriate to post here.

 

This particular Italic variation seems to be specific to Hermann Zapf alone. Other than my effort, I know of no other example of this style of Italic. It appeared in a booklet "Creative Calligraphy" by Herman Zapf which was given free with Rotring ArtPens in the 1980s. Although it's quite idiosyncratic, he just calls it "Chancery Italic". I don't write it very often, but it is an interesting, personal slant on an established style of lettering.

 

Ken

Edited November 24, 2013 by caliken

[caliken]

deleted

Edited November 24, 2013 by caliken

[dms525]

David :

 

This is considerably more consistent than your previous post. A couple of suggestions, perhaps......

 

Practice on guidelines. There is no better way to sort out inconsistencies. Use all three - baseline waistline and slope line. The easiest way is to make up a basic page, either by hand or on computer, and then have it copied in faint blue or green multiple times. The x height for the nib you are using, looks perfect to me and this indicates where your waist line should be. Your writing is fairly upright and around 5 degrees from the vertical should be fine for your slope lines. For accuracy, I would place the slope lines fairly close together.

The use of those three guidelines will sort out letter height and slope. Your writing already looks good and it wouldn't take a lot of effort to move up to Formal script.

 

When learning a new script. I always use guidelines for as long as necessary - sometimes for months. Eventually, you'll be able to dispense with the slope and waist lines. . I see no point in making things unnecessarily difficult for myself, and I always use baseline guidelines for all my lettering. There are very few of us with HDoug's gift for being able to write perfectly-spaced, straight lines across the page without assistance, and I'm not one of them!

 

I look forward to your future posts.

 

Ken

 

Ken,

 

Thank you for your suggestions. I certainly abandoned full guidelines prematurely. Back we go ....

 

David

[akustyk]

 

Ken,

 

Thank you for your suggestions. I certainly abandoned full guidelines prematurely. Back we go ....

 

David

 

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag32/akustyk/IMG_7791_zpsea4fc2f4.jpg

[dms525]

 

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag32/akustyk/IMG_7791_zpsea4fc2f4.jpg

 

Well, thanks! One of my other obsessions is bread baking. In giving others advice about how to achieve "perfection" in, say, making baguettes, the dictum is "everything matters." It seems that the same applies to calligraphy. One must pay careful attention to a myriad variables simultaneously and practice until a certain amount of motor memory is established. Then, it is just as important to suspend conscious attention and, as Lloyd Reynolds used to say, "Get your mind out of the way of your hand."

 

I'm still at the "paying careful attention to everything" stage, I think. I just have to remember to do so, and that's the challenge.

 

BTW, I would be quite happy to get to the writing in your reply, above!

 

David

[smk]

 

Ken,

 

Thank you for your suggestions. I certainly abandoned full guidelines prematurely. Back we go ....

 

David

 

In my opinion you are moving forwards not backwards. I see nothing amateurish about using guidelines.

 

I believe Handwriting depends on muscle memory while Calligraphy depends on muscle control. You are just getting used to being more careful with your strokes. Guidelines help one produce good work and I think no less of any Calligrapher who uses them.

 

You clearly have the skill and can produce good Italic letterforms - I'm looking forward to the formal version.

 

Salman

[dms525]

 

In my opinion you are moving forwards not backwards. I see nothing amateurish about using guidelines.

 

I believe Handwriting depends on muscle memory while Calligraphy depends on muscle control. You are just getting used to being more careful with your strokes. Guidelines help one produce good work and I think no less of any Calligrapher who uses them.

 

You clearly have the skill and can produce good Italic letterforms - I'm looking forward to the formal version.

 

Salman

 

Salman,

 

Thank you very much for sharing your perspective. It's very helpful.

 

I had used guidelines some months ago, but not effectively. At the time, I felt they were not helping, so I gave up on them. Since Ken made his suggestions, I have gone back to them and am finding them very helpful. I am seeing consistent errors in how I have been making some letters - especially slopes of ascenders and descenders. The guidelines seem to be helping me focus on the attributes Ken pointed out as needing improvement. Maybe it's the other way around - Ken's suggestions helped me focus on how to use the guidelines. I can hardly believe some of what I have written today.

 

Thanks again for your encouragement.

 

Regards,

 

David

[thang1thang2]

 

In my opinion you are moving forwards not backwards. I see nothing amateurish about using guidelines.

 

I believe Handwriting depends on muscle memory while Calligraphy depends on muscle control. You are just getting used to being more careful with your strokes. Guidelines help one produce good work and I think no less of any Calligrapher who uses them.

 

You clearly have the skill and can produce good Italic letterforms - I'm looking forward to the formal version.

 

Salman

 

It is of my opinion that handwriting can be written, theoretically, perfectly while the person is blindfolded. However, calligraphy will always be written with the aid of guidelines.

 

I've noticed that, even when—my apologies for digressing into the topic of pointed scripts—Louis Madarasz and the other penman masters of their time had so thoroughly mastered their scripts that they were hailed as the champions of it and their feats of technical skill have not been surpassed, and have barely been equaled since, that they still used guidelines. They had their baseline, and slant line, but no more (due to their skill, they didn't need the mid line anymore).

 

However they always drew their capitals in pencil first. I haven't seen a single rough draft of the masters without their capitals omitted, but draw in with pencil. I've seen the snap shades of the 'd' and 't' penciled out so that they can make them the exact width every time, and the flourishes are penciled out for maximum smoothness and clarity. Even in their mastery, where the handwritten part of the script (the lower forms) were to the point where they could execute it without reference and with the barest hint of guidelines, they relied on muscular control and dexterity along with some muscular memory to execute the snaps and the capitals and all other artistic parts of it.

 

I've always found that fascinating. Surely someone with thousands of hours of practice might be able to write pretty without executing it out first in pencil. But then I remember that the skill is not so that one may execute it without any guideline or help at all; rather the skill comes in that they are able to execute it at all. This is true of any advanced element. The gymnast uses their wrist guards, the weightlifter wears his belt, the penman uses his guidelines, the artist sketches and relies on his eraser, the programmer thanks the Lord for his pre-compiler and the artist is glad of the fact that paint dries so he can paint over it.

 

Guidelines aren't anything to be ashamed of, but rather (when used properly) are something to enhance an already elegant art to a precision almost inhuman, and a beauty nearly divine.

[akustyk]

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag32/akustyk/IMG_7794_zps90d130da.jpg

[fiberdrunk]

 

 

I've noticed that, even when—my apologies for digressing into the topic of pointed scripts—Louis Madarasz and the other penman masters of their time had so thoroughly mastered their scripts that they were hailed as the champions of it and their feats of technical skill have not been surpassed, and have barely been equaled since, that they still used guidelines. They had their baseline, and slant line, but no more (due to their skill, they didn't need the mid line anymore).

 

However they always drew their capitals in pencil first. I haven't seen a single rough draft of the masters without their capitals omitted, but draw in with pencil.

 

This is all very comforting-- I feel like a kid still needing my "training wheels," but I'm glad to see others always used them, even the masters.

[bassmannate]

I want to start learning italic. I've started watching the Lloyd Reynolds videos and have been practicing with a standard nib. I don't have an italic nib at the moment. I have a Safari and am going to get a nib for it but, should I get the largest I can get so I can see my mistakes better or should I go smaller like a 1.5 so I'm more likely to use it in every day writing?