Learning Italic

[PhiloPlume]

On 3/17/2024 at 10:58 AM, dms525 said:

e third best option would be to learn basic letter forms from the Fred Eager book you have

Oh  David.

 

On these certificates, I have 1cm or 1 inch max to write the kid's names on.  I am reading the page 103 from Eager's book you suggested about guide sheets and the nib.  I am a little brain twisted (it hurts :-)) trying to come up with some guides that will fit in that for all three (X, A, D).  Not sure which nib to use.  I am trying the F-C medium cursive italic, their Music nib and also have a cursive-calligraphy pen from them in addition to the Pilot stub.

 

-paul

[PhiloPlume]

On 1/24/2021 at 1:03 PM, hh1990 said:

I know this is a really old post, but that is perfect for what I want to do.

 

Any way, the Dubay-Getty "Italic Letters: Calligraphy and Handwriting" purple/pink book is partly based on Lloyd Reynolds so that is good enough for me!  That is what I am going to go with.

 

"The letters in this book are our own version of italic patterned after our study of historical manuscripts and the models of Lloyd Reynolds".

 

[Tasmith]

On 3/25/2024 at 11:19 AM, PhiloPlume said:

I know this is a really old post, but that is perfect for what I want to do.

 

Any way, the Dubay-Getty "Italic Letters: Calligraphy and Handwriting" purple/pink book is partly based on Lloyd Reynolds so that is good enough for me!  That is what I am going to go with.

 

"The letters in this book are our own version of italic patterned after our study of historical manuscripts and the models of Lloyd Reynolds".

 

Very nice!

[XYZZY]

On 3/23/2024 at 9:57 AM, PhiloPlume said:

I just finished watching episode 3 David.  Episode 2 seems to be lost in space and does not exist lol!  17 more to go I think 🙂

 

He is writing (it's actually drawing) on an angled desk.  Should I be doing that or flat on a table is okay?  I realize the proportions may be off if done on a flat surface when the page is lifted up to be read.

 

-paul

 

On 3/23/2024 at 6:17 PM, dms525 said:

 

I think the slanted desk tradition started in the day of writing with quills. It may help with your posture, but I suspect its main effect is on ink flow from quills or dip pens. Personally, I have never gotten comfortable using a slanted table for writing, but there is no question that is the preferred way to write for almost all professional calligraphers. They, of course, almost exclusively use dip pens. I use fountain pens which, I believe, are engineered to write on a horizontal surface.

 

If you have access to a sloped writing surface, try it out and see how you like it. But,  writing on a desk is fine, IMO. There should be no difference in letter shape or proportions.

 

David

 

I use a writing desk with a 45-degree slope with a fountain pen and have never noticed a difference in flow.  The slant is all about maintaining posture and not torturing my back.  In spite of having to learn a couple of new habits (mentioned below), for me and my lower back a sloped writing desk is an enabling technology.

 

The slanted writing desk was invented by non-fountainpen users, but that might merely be because fountainpens are a much more recent invention than writing.  I would think that as long as your pen is nib-down so that ink can get from pen-body to the ink channel that capillary action will take care of getting ink to the page.  Can the change in angle effect things? I have no doubt it could be measured with proper lab equipment, but I would argue the effect is miniscule and if you notice it then the pen was having flow issues already.  Having said that, I only use a couple of my pens at the sloped writing desk so cannot honestly say "none of my pens have an issue".

 

When I started copying the Bible onto A4 pages (on A3 sheets) it exacerbated ongoing lower back issues.  I also noticed subtle differences in writing between top and bottom of pages that I attributed to different angle of holding the pen when "reaching way out there" at the top of a page, not something I notice normally.  Once I got an inclined drawing board the pain was gone.  It took a few days to settle on an angle:  perhaps toward the top of the page something like 55-60 degrees would be better, and at the bottom of the page 30 degrees would be sufficient, but futzing around to change the angle as you work down a page is an unacceptable distraction.  I've settled in at 45 as a happy medium.  I have found that I also got in the habit of repositioning my page as I write so that my posture doesn't change much throughout the page.

 

Since I reposition the page while writing I have one hand dedicated to pen and the other to holding/positioning the paper.  Anything let go will end up on the floor.  I also use guidesheets clipped behind the page.  It probably took a bit to get comfortable with a routine for capping the pen, setting it aside, flipping the page and guidesheet, uncapping the pen, all with nothing on the floor...it's a trivial little dance but took a week before becoming routine.

[PhiloPlume]

17 hours ago, XYZZY said:

nce I got an inclined drawing board the pain was gone.  It took a few days to settle on an angle:  perhaps toward the top of the page something like 55-60 degrees would be better, and at the bottom of the page 30 degrees would be sufficient, but futzing around to change the angle as you work down a page is an unacceptable distraction.  I've settled in at 45 as a happy medium.  I have found that I also got in the habit of repositioning my page as I write so that my posture doesn't change much throughout the page.

 

Since I reposition the page while writing I have one hand dedicated to pen and the other to holding/positioning the paper.  Anything let go will end up on the floor.  I also use guidesheets clipped behind the page.  It probably took a bit to get comfortable with a routine for capping the pen, setting it aside, flipping the page and guidesheet, uncapping the pen, all with nothing on the floor...it's a trivial little dance but took a week before becoming routine.

Thank you!  Great advice.  I do have a couple of desktop options, and also an easel that lay at different angles and flat.  Never thought about copying the bible for practice.  Great idea.

 

I tilt my paper to the left quite a bit and didn't think about how to hold the paper.

[XYZZY]

1 hour ago, PhiloPlume said:

Never thought about copying the bible for practice.  Great idea.

 

 

You can start smaller.  For a couple of years I would find a historically significant document and copy it on July 4 or Thanksgiving.  Declaration of Independence, U.S Constitution, etc.

[PhiloPlume]

2 hours ago, XYZZY said:

ou can start smaller.  For a couple of years I would find a historically significant document and copy it on July 4 or Thanksgiving.  Declaration of Independence, U.S Constitution, etc.

Yes!  There are some beautiful examples in Italic in some handwriting manuals.  The Declaration of Independence being one.  Besides, the Bible's I have do not lay flat!

 

Thanks

[XYZZY]

2 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

Yes!  There are some beautiful examples in Italic in some handwriting manuals.  The Declaration of Independence being one.  Besides, the Bible's I have do not lay flat!

 

Thanks

For copying the Bible, where I'm using a desk included at 45 degrees, there is no place for a hardcopy Bible.  I have the translation I wanted in Kindle edition.  I pull it up on my iPad, then set the iPad on the desk with cover hanging over the top of the desk so that it does not slide down.  This works much better than working from a hardcopy.  A scribe doesn't read the original so much as refer back to it every few seconds.  Being able to increase the font size, change line spacing, etc, makes that much easier.  It's also nice that I can highlight and color some text to note where I left off, or if I made a mistake because something is hard to follow and decide to redo a few pages I can highlite the tricky portion in red. 

[PhiloPlume]

On 3/30/2024 at 4:59 PM, XYZZY said:

or copying the Bible, where I'm using a desk included at 45 degrees, there is no place for a hardcopy Bible.  I have the translation I wanted in Kindle edition.  I pull it up on my iPad, then set the iPad on the desk with cover hanging over the top of the desk so that it does not slide down.  This works much better than working from a hardcopy.  A scribe doesn't read the original so much as refer back to it every few seconds.  Being able to increase the font size, change line spacing, etc, makes that much easier.  It's also nice that I can highlight and color some text to note where I left off, or if I made a mistake because something is hard to follow and decide to redo a few pages I can highlite the tricky portion in red

I can do that!! 🙂

 

I have a Kindle and an iPad.  Also a holder for both that keeps them upright.

 

Thanks again.

[OregonJim]

On 3/23/2024 at 6:17 PM, dms525 said:

 

I think the slanted desk tradition started in the day of writing with quills. It may help with your posture, but I suspect its main effect is on ink flow from quills or dip pens. Personally, I have never gotten comfortable using a slanted table for writing, but there is no question that is the preferred way to write for almost all professional calligraphers. They, of course, almost exclusively use dip pens. I use fountain pens which, I believe, are engineered to write on a horizontal surface.

 

If you have access to a sloped writing surface, try it out and see how you like it. But,  writing on a desk is fine, IMO. There should be no difference in letter shape or proportions.

 

David

 

Back in my drafting and art instruction days, these were given as the reasons for a sloped drawing/writing surface:

 

1.) To eliminate distortion caused by the eye not being perpendicular to the paper surface.  What appears as a perfectly drawn circle on a flat surface viewed askew becomes an oval when the drawing is hung on a wall and viewed at eye level.

 

2.) To alleviate fatigue.  Longer sessions are possible because the hand/wrist does not have to overcome gravity when lifting as much as with a prone (level) position.

 

3.) To save the back.  A sloped writing surface allows one to sit up straighter and still maintain a proper (perpendicular) view of the surface.

 

I never heard any mention of ink flow being affected, nor any change in the use of dip pens (other than to be wary of placing ink bottles on sloped surfaces).

 

[dms525]

2 hours ago, OregonJim said:

 

Back in my drafting and art instruction days, these were given as the reasons for a sloped drawing/writing surface:

 

1.) To eliminate distortion caused by the eye not being perpendicular to the paper surface.  What appears as a perfectly drawn circle on a flat surface viewed askew becomes an oval when the drawing is hung on a wall and viewed at eye level.

 

2.) To alleviate fatigue.  Longer sessions are possible because the hand/wrist does not have to overcome gravity when lifting as much as with a prone (level) position.

 

3.) To save the back.  A sloped writing surface allows one to sit up straighter and still maintain a proper (perpendicular) view of the surface.

 

I never heard any mention of ink flow being affected, nor any change in the use of dip pens (other than to be wary of placing ink bottles on sloped surfaces).

 

 

All good reasons. 

 

David

[Mercian]

On 3/24/2024 at 1:17 AM, dms525 said:

 

I think the slanted desk tradition started in the day of writing with quills. It may help with your posture, but I suspect its main effect is on ink flow from quills or dip pens. Personally, I have never gotten comfortable using a slanted table for writing, but there is no question that is the preferred way to write for almost all professional calligraphers. They, of course, almost exclusively use dip pens. I use fountain pens which, I believe, are engineered to write on a horizontal surface.

 

If you have access to a sloped writing surface, try it out and see how you like it. But,  writing on a desk is fine, IMO. There should be no difference in letter shape or proportions.

 

David

I own a ‘writing slope’ - a box that opens out to reveal an angled slope on which one can write, and which contains compartments in which one can store pens, ink, paper, and correspondence.

 

Apart from it being an attractive artefact/possession, one advantage that it offers to its users is that it - like angled desks - encourages one to use one’s shoulder muscles to control/direct one’s writing, rather than one’s wrists/fingers.

Doing this means that one can write more-consistently, and for longer, than when writing with the letterforms generated by the (smaller) muscles in one’s wrist/fingers.

[Stompie]

To save you holding your paper in place you can use Washi Tape a it does not stick very fast

[XYZZY]

5 hours ago, Stompie said:

To save you holding your paper in place you can use Washi Tape a it does not stick very fast

Post-it tape is very gentle when removing it.