Learning Italic

[PhiloPlume]

11 minutes ago, dms525 said:

The nibs are all stub or cursive italics. They are different widths. 

 

Yes, my mistake.  I  guess F-C was referring to the width of their #5 and #6 cursive-italic nibs being the same.

 

[PhiloPlume]

18 hours ago, dms525 said:

another option is the OPUS88 pens with either #5 or #6 stubs.

 

So something like this for the OPUS 88?

https://www.jetpens.com/Opus-88-Demo-Fountain-Pen-Clear-Demonstrator-1.5-mm-Stub-Nib/pd/25693

 

[dms525]

20 minutes ago, PhiloPlume said:

 

So something like this for the OPUS 88?

https://www.jetpens.com/Opus-88-Demo-Fountain-Pen-Clear-Demonstrator-1.5-mm-Stub-Nib/pd/25693

 

 

Yes. That's one good option. An Opus 88 model that has a really nice #5 1.4mm stub nib is the "Halo." It seems to be out of stock everywhere.  I wonder if it's still being made. However, the Koloro model uses the same #5 nibs and is available.

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

24 minutes ago, dms525 said:

Yes. That's one good option. An Opus 88 model that has a really nice #5 1.4mm stub nib is the "Halo." It seems to be out of stock everywhere.  I wonder if it's still being made. However, the Koloro model uses the same #5 nibs and is available.

Here is the nib.  Just need to find a pen for it there:

https://www.jetpens.com/Opus-88-Fountain-Pen-Nib-JOWO-5-1.4-mm-Stub/pd/31469

 

There is this but it's $250!  And 1.1mm

 

https://www.jetpens.com/Esterbrook-Estie-Piston-Fountain-Pen-Raven-Stub-1.1-mm-Nib-Limited-Edition/pd/41115

 

Edited March 16 by PhiloPlume
added another link

[PhiloPlume]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:40 PM, dms525 said:

 

I think Fred Eager's book is one of the better ones. Pay attention to the letter shapes and ductus

Do you prefer another book (or videos) to learn italic from?  I am going to concentrate more on it than something other that I started teaching myself (copperplate).  I don't think I can do this project for my church because most the kids and parents probably cannot read cursive or Copperplate or Spencerian or anything like that.

 

It is only writing the kids names and their chosen Catholic Saint's names and making it look impressive on their certificates for their first communion.  About 20 certificates.  I thought I should do something that a computer, Microsoft Word, etc.. couldn't spit out.  I am thinking that perhaps Italic/Italic Calligraphy will make more sense.  But not Gothic or Roman type.

 

I showed a woman from the office today a Copperplate book and all the flourishes, and the open p's that she said look like n's and h's and u's and the dreaded Z and z, etc... and she told me she doubts the kids or parents could decipher that or cursive (what I have always thought!!).

 

Oh - there is only one line at the top of the certificate that is below traditional calligraphy without the loops and only has room for 1 to 1.5 cm max.  Shooting for 1cm.

Edited March 17 by PhiloPlume
Forgot something!

[PhiloPlume]

On 3/14/2024 at 8:40 PM, dms525 said:

"nib ladder" to determine the optimum "x-height" of letters? Eager's book has instructions on the top of Page 103. Look at "Fig. 1." 

I also just found this 🙂

 

 

[dms525]

14 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

Do you prefer another book (or videos) to learn italic from?  I am going to concentrate more on it than something other that I started teaching myself (copperplate).  I don't think I can do this project for my church because most the kids and parents probably cannot read cursive or Copperplate or Spencerian or anything like that.

 

It is only writing the kids names and their chosen Catholic Saint's names and making it look impressive on their certificates for their first communion.  About 20 certificates.  I thought I should do something that a computer, Microsoft Word, etc.. couldn't spit out.  I am thinking that perhaps Italic/Italic Calligraphy will make more sense.  But not Gothic or Roman type.

 

I showed a woman from the office today a Copperplate book and all the flourishes, and the open p's that she said look like n's and h's and u's and the dreaded Z and z, etc... and she told me she doubts the kids or parents could decipher that or cursive (what I have always thought!!).

 

Oh - there is only one line at the top of the certificate that is below traditional calligraphy without the loops and only has room for 1 to 1.5 cm max.  Shooting for 1cm.

 

In my opinion, the very best way to learn is face-to-face with an expert teacher. Second best is Lloyd Reynolds' "Italic Calligraphy & Handwriting - Exercises & Text" in conjunction with the videos that Reynolds made for Oregon Public Broadcastin in 1978. Unfortunately, the book is out of print. It is available used. (See: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/0800842847/ref=dp_olp_unknown_mbc) The videos are available on youtube. The videos follow the book's content.  You can watch them a dozen times and learn something new every time.

 

The third best option would be to learn basic letter forms from the Fred Eager book you have, but also watch the Lloyd Reynolds videos

 

Regarding learning other lettering styles: I think trying to acquire multiple styles at the same time would be a mistake. Achieve some level of mastery of one style - I'd recommend italic - before tackling another.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

6 hours ago, dms525 said:

Second best is Lloyd Reynolds' "Italic Calligraphy & Handwriting - Exercises & Text

 

I have two copies!

 

Thanks for everything.  No teachers where I live that I know about.  Doubt there are in Bozeman either. Certainly not in Livingston.   I would want a male teacher any way.  I have had enough of the way woman write, etc...  Don't get me going on Modern Calligraphy, Brush Pen Lettering, Faux Calligraphy,.... Tired of the bouncy, round stuff. hehe

 

But especially the out of control, show off looking flourishes! I crack myself up sometime 🙂

 

So, like everything I have learned in my life I need to teach myself from books 🙂

 

Edited March 17 by PhiloPlume

[Mercian]

1 hour ago, PhiloPlume said:

I would want a male teacher any way.  I have had enough of the way woman write, etc...  Don't get me going on Modern Calligraphy, Brush Pen Lettering, Faux Calligraphy,.... Tired of the bouncy, round stuff. hehe

You could look at getting one of the books that teach Getty-Dubay Italic. I bought a copy of their Write Now for myself. It teaches their system of ‘printed’ italic letterforms, then the joins to turn their ‘printed’ italic in to ‘cursive italic’, and then edged-nib cursive italic.
Their system is based on work by Lloyd Reynolds and Alfred Fairbanks (and their predecessors in the Renaissance in Italy).

https://handwritingsuccess.com/italic-handwriting-series/

 

I recommend the purchase of some tracing paper (and paperclips) to use with Write Now. Using tracing paper means that one doesn’t ‘ruin’ one’s copy of the book while doing the exercises.

 

Or you could try to find a book/books that teach the italic handwriting that the Swedish government’s school oversight board tried to introduce to their schools in the 1970s to replace the country’s traditional looped-cursive.
The so-called ‘SÖ-stilen’.

The effort failed, because the oversight board didn’t bother to try to explain/justify the change to Sweden’s parents, or bother to train Sweden’s teachers in how to write it themselves, let alone how to teach it to Sweden’s kids 

 

Btw, Getty and Dubay are both, like the well-respected calligrapher who developed SÖ-stilen for the Swedish Skolöverstyrelsen, women 😉
I do know what you actually meant though 

[PhiloPlume]

1 hour ago, Mercian said:

You could look at getting one of the books that teach Getty-Dubay Italic. I bought a copy of their Write Now for myself. It teaches their system of ‘printed’ italic letterforms, then the joins to turn their ‘printed’ italic in to ‘cursive italic’, and then edged-nib cursive italic.
Their system is based on work by Lloyd Reynolds and Alfred Fairbanks (and their predecessors in the Renaissance in Italy).

https://handwritingsuccess.com/italic-handwriting-series/

That is what refined my handwriting years ago.  Every week I sit down with the books to keep my muscle memory in tune., and to make sure I don't stray.  I have all the grades books even.  The whole set.  Right now I am studying the pink Italic Writing one.  I even have the iPad app and use the Apple pencil and write the letters, etc.. on it 🙂  I have their fonts on my PC too!  I have been planning on making a font based on my handwriting sometime.

 

Their system is based on cursive and cursive-italic without the loops because so many people have trouble reading cursive and a lot of kids haven't been taught that for a generation or two.  I know all their rules by heart!!  Made myself a cheat cheat.

 

The Swedish books look interesting.

 

Thank you so much!

 

>> do know what you actually meant though 

 

Hehe!!  It is not hard to notice!  They have taken over teaching writing and penmanship.  The owner of thepostmansknock admitted that to me and told me I should develop my own manly style.  Am working on that a little bit at a time <g>

Edited March 18 by PhiloPlume

[PhiloPlume]

On 3/17/2024 at 10:58 AM, dms525 said:

Regarding learning other lettering styles: I think trying to acquire multiple styles at the same time would be a mistake. Achieve some level of mastery of one style - I'd recommend italic - before tackling another

 

I am going to concentrate in Italic David and use it for the certificates that I was asked to do, and for my general handwriting, letter writing.. Especially after discovering what Spencerian Calligraphy looks like.  I had trouble deciphering it.  Final nail in the coffin, so to speak 🙂

 

Thank you for convincing me.  I found a YouTube page with all of Lloyds video's listed on one page 1-20.

 

Thanks again!

 

-paul

[PhiloPlume]

On 3/13/2024 at 6:02 PM, dms525 said:

Welcome to the wonderful world of italic handwriting!

I understand the nib is held at 45 degrees.

 

Is there a proper degree slant or it is what it is.  For instance, Copperplate is 55 degrees.

[inkstainedruth]

I think it depends on the script/hand.  I seem to recall that Italic was a 45° slant (i.e., from the base line -- not how upright the pen/nib is from the page surface) but that other hands like Blackletter were at less of one (I think Blackletter was done at no slant at all -- don't remember now about Uncial; and never took anything that taught Copperplate).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[dms525]

1 hour ago, PhiloPlume said:

I understand the nib is held at 45 degrees.

 

Is there a proper degree slant or it is what it is.  For instance, Copperplate is 55 degrees.

 

The angle of the nib nib to the writing line should be 45º. The slope of the letters should generally be 5-10º from vertical, but some italic styles are vertical (no slope), and some are up to 15º. The angle of the pen barrel to the writing surface is whatever works for you and your nib.

 

Note that in typefaces, "italic" connotes a typeface/font where the letters slope to the right. Strictly speaking, italic handwriting is usually sloped, but is defined more by the letter shapes.

 

Note the neatest, but a quickly dashed off illustration ....

 

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

15 minutes ago, dms525 said:

The angle of the nib nib to the writing line should be 45º. The slope of the letters should generally be 5-10º from vertical, but some italic styles are vertical (no slope), and some are up to 15º. The angle of the pen barrel to the writing surface is whatever works for you and your nib.

 

Note that in typefaces, "italic" connotes a typeface/font where the letters slope to the right. Strictly speaking, italic handwriting is usually sloped, but is defined more by the letter shapes.

 

Note the neatest, but a quickly dashed off illustration ....

 

Thank you David!  Big help as always!

 

I did not see that mentioned in Lloyd Renold's book.

[txomsy]

I personally think that there is an over-emphasis in over-definition of writing nowadays.

 

If I may, I would make a distinction between pointed-pen and italic-pen scripts. Italic pen scripts are not all italic. So, one can find lots of different scripts developed through the ages and specialized by geographical region and -often- office/use destination.

 

That said, italic is a misnomer. What most people refers to when using the term is Chancelleresca, the renacentist script promoted by Petrarca. To learn it, I think that the Operina is still one of the best references. And Arrighi's rendering of Petrarca's poems (available digitized for free) is a wonderful masterpiece. Tagliente, Yziar and de Lucas are still as good today as 500 years ago (Vincentino's "Mode de temperare la penne" dates from 1524, Arrighi's "Operina" from 1522 and Tagliente's "Thesauro de scrittori" from 1520).

 

Even so, there soon appeared variations. The "rules" for writing italic were taken mostly as guidelines, as some modern masters recognize: in "The Art of Calligraphy", for example, Harris mentions that the size of the descender should be at least four pen widths; and indeed, a cursory look to "The Art of the Pen. Calligraphy from the court of emperor Rudolf II" by Hendriz and Vignau-Willberg, will show all kinds of scripts, lengths and shapes -round, left and right slanted, vertical- (sure, many of these styles got their own names), and "Essemplare di più sorti de lettere" de Cresci (digitized, free) also shows a huge variation, including "ugly" running hand variants for common use. The slant started being about 5º, then 10º, then 15º and depending on local variants, it kept on growing over time.

 

Yziar already demonstrated round hands and variations of Chancelleresca, can't remember if he also showed left-slanted variants, he did show formata, grossa, llana, romana, de breves (formal), capitals.. and a round hand, and many other flat-tipped pen hands (including a Hebrew script).

 

Moving on in time, we can see the slant, ligatures, serifs, and shapes changing -all within the same century. And if we press ahead until XIX century over different regions, we will see yet even more variations. To the point where by the XIX century Italian italic scripts were approaching the shapes of the "English" pointed-pen hand.

 

What I mean is that it all depends on which "variant", if any, one wants to learn. Many modern books do actually not match exactly any historical one. What is common to almost all is that the angle of the nib flat part touching the page with the base line is 45º as @dms525 points out. The letter slant in Chancelleresca formata was originally 5-10º depending on the date of the manual. Beyond that, since the very early times, there were many variants and I personally do not think one should talk of a single slant, length, ligatures or shape.

 

What I do think is that the manuals of Arrighi's, Vincentino, Tagliente or Palatino are a very good foundation/reference for italic scripts. But that there is ample room for each one to choose or develop their own preferred variant. What characterizes Italic for me is its readability (based on uniform shapes and sizes), ovals and basic proportions. If one keeps letters uniform, round letters as ovals, minimal proportions and readability, that is likely bound to result in one or other acceptable variant of the Italic script.

 

From my personal point of view, Italic is a family of scripts, and there is no need to obsess with very specific rules, but rather what makes your hand "attractive" is more the uniformity and proportions rather than a single specific shape. So, do practice and enjoy.

[dms525]

9 hours ago, txomsy said:

I personally think that there is an over-emphasis in over-definition of writing nowadays.

 

If I may, I would make a distinction between pointed-pen and italic-pen scripts. Italic pen scripts are not all italic. So, one can find lots of different scripts developed through the ages and specialized by geographical region and -often- office/use destination.

 

That said, italic is a misnomer. What most people refers to when using the term is Chancelleresca, the renacentist script promoted by Petrarca. To learn it, I think that the Operina is still one of the best references. And Arrighi's rendering of Petrarca's poems (available digitized for free) is a wonderful masterpiece. Tagliente, Yziar and de Lucas are still as good today as 500 years ago (Vincentino's "Mode de temperare la penne" dates from 1524, Arrighi's "Operina" from 1522 and Tagliente's "Thesauro de scrittori" from 1520).

 

Even so, there soon appeared variations. The "rules" for writing italic were taken mostly as guidelines, as some modern masters recognize: in "The Art of Calligraphy", for example, Harris mentions that the size of the descender should be at least four pen widths; and indeed, a cursory look to "The Art of the Pen. Calligraphy from the court of emperor Rudolf II" by Hendriz and Vignau-Willberg, will show all kinds of scripts, lengths and shapes -round, left and right slanted, vertical- (sure, many of these styles got their own names), and "Essemplare di più sorti de lettere" de Cresci (digitized, free) also shows a huge variation, including "ugly" running hand variants for common use. The slant started being about 5º, then 10º, then 15º and depending on local variants, it kept on growing over time.

 

Yziar already demonstrated round hands and variations of Chancelleresca, can't remember if he also showed left-slanted variants, he did show formata, grossa, llana, romana, de breves (formal), capitals.. and a round hand, and many other flat-tipped pen hands (including a Hebrew script).

 

Moving on in time, we can see the slant, ligatures, serifs, and shapes changing -all within the same century. And if we press ahead until XIX century over different regions, we will see yet even more variations. To the point where by the XIX century Italian italic scripts were approaching the shapes of the "English" pointed-pen hand.

 

What I mean is that it all depends on which "variant", if any, one wants to learn. Many modern books do actually not match exactly any historical one. What is common to almost all is that the angle of the nib flat part touching the page with the base line is 45º as @dms525 points out. The letter slant in Chancelleresca formata was originally 5-10º depending on the date of the manual. Beyond that, since the very early times, there were many variants and I personally do not think one should talk of a single slant, length, ligatures or shape.

 

What I do think is that the manuals of Arrighi's, Vincentino, Tagliente or Palatino are a very good foundation/reference for italic scripts. But that there is ample room for each one to choose or develop their own preferred variant. What characterizes Italic for me is its readability (based on uniform shapes and sizes), ovals and basic proportions. If one keeps letters uniform, round letters as ovals, minimal proportions and readability, that is likely bound to result in one or other acceptable variant of the Italic script.

 

From my personal point of view, Italic is a family of scripts, and there is no need to obsess with very specific rules, but rather what makes your hand "attractive" is more the uniformity and proportions rather than a single specific shape. So, do practice and enjoy.

 

The origin of italic handwriting is generally credited to Niccolo Niccoli who used a cursive version of Poggio Bracciolini's "humanist book hand." Poggio, a gifted scribe and finder of manuscripts of classical Roman texts, thought the Carolingian script used by monkish scribes in the middle ages, was, in fact, of classical Roman origin. Niccoli was a scribe in the papal chancery, thus his handwriting was called "chancery cursive," or "chancelleresca." 

 

For those interested, I recommend Stanley Morison's "Early Italian Writing-Books: Renaissance to Baroque."

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

On 3/17/2024 at 10:58 AM, dms525 said:

In my opinion, the very best way to learn is face-to-face with an expert teacher. Second best is Lloyd Reynolds' "Italic Calligraphy & Handwriting - Exercises & Text" in conjunction with the videos that Reynolds made for Oregon Public Broadcastin in 1978

I just finished watching episode 3 David.  Episode 2 seems to be lost in space and does not exist lol!  17 more to go I think 🙂

 

He is writing (it's actually drawing) on an angled desk.  Should I be doing that or flat on a table is okay?  I realize the proportions may be off if done on a flat surface when the page is lifted up to be read.

 

-paul

[dms525]

8 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

I just finished watching episode 3 David.  Episode 2 seems to be lost in space and does not exist lol!  17 more to go I think 🙂

 

He is writing (it's actually drawing) on an angled desk.  Should I be doing that or flat on a table is okay?  I realize the proportions may be off if done on a flat surface when the page is lifted up to be read.

 

-paul

 

I think the slanted desk tradition started in the day of writing with quills. It may help with your posture, but I suspect its main effect is on ink flow from quills or dip pens. Personally, I have never gotten comfortable using a slanted table for writing, but there is no question that is the preferred way to write for almost all professional calligraphers. They, of course, almost exclusively use dip pens. I use fountain pens which, I believe, are engineered to write on a horizontal surface.

 

If you have access to a sloped writing surface, try it out and see how you like it. But,  writing on a desk is fine, IMO. There should be no difference in letter shape or proportions.

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

1 hour ago, dms525 said:

If you have access to a sloped writing surface, try it out and see how you like it. But,  writing on a desk is fine, IMO. There should be no difference in letter shape or proportions.

Thanks!

 

I do.  I bought a desktop easel a while back from blicks on-line but haven't tried it yet or a smaller fixed one made of plastic.  I might as well try them!