Learning Italic

[Arrighi]

Thank you @txomsy for that link.  It's feels that much more "real" to see it handwritten than engraved.  Very beautiful writing indeed.

 

I also did a search for "cataneo", and obviously this is not the same Cataneo of italic fame, but do you know anything about the script used in this?: Carta de Aurelio Cataneo al Cardenal Granvela. Roma, 17 febrero 1550. It's in Italian but has some unique elements like the mix of two lowercase 'd' forms and the 'p' that curves to the right. 

 

Thanks for sharing that resource: http://www.bne.es/es/Catalogos/BibliotecaDigitalHispanica/Inicio/index.html

 

 

@dms525 I had known that they were engraved, but didn't have a great feel for how well that engraving captured the written hand.  Based on his actual written text, it does seem like the "swing" of the verticals is less pronounced but still there (the 'i' and 't' especially), and the serifs are comparably sharp.  The bowl (is that even the right term?) of the 'a' and 'd' seem a lot easier to write than their carved equivalents. 

 

It's interesting to see the changes between this sample and what I copied.  In the handwritten sample, most of the ascenders start with serifs, and the 'g' uses the "humanist" form.  Also his 'o's are less round.  I wonder if that was his own stylistic choice, or whether the changes were imposed by his "editor" or equivalent.  I do prefer the airier letter-spacing.

 

I think I may pick up a copy of the Written Letters book.

 

 

Edit: actually what stands out to me now that this attachment is at a larger size is that his 'b', 'o' and 'c' all have some gothic-like shaping to them.  I don't know gothic at all, but I see a hexagonal kind of shape to those letters.  They're not as smoothly curved as what shows up in later italic writing.

[Grayspoole]

On 10/1/2021 at 12:35 PM, txomsy said:

I posted somewhere else here on FPN a link to a digitized copy of Petrarca's Poems hand written by one Ludovico Arrighi 😉

 

Found it:

 

So, one can see how Arrighi's hand looked actually when hand written.

 

My thanks for this link to Arrighi’s manuscript of Petrarch too! I had not seen it before, and I agree that it makes a better exemplar than the printed Operina. 

 

I have been studying cancellaresca using Cataneo’s copybook, but there is a strong relationship between Arrighi and Cataneo’s scripts, albeit with many subtle differences. I would say that Cataneo’s miniscule e’s, o’s, a’s are even more angular than Arrighi’s. Arrighi’s ascenders are shorter, and he doesn’t favor the long curved ascenders as much as Cataneo does. The differences are fun to explore.

 

We are so lucky, are we not. to have access to such wonderful digital versions of priceless manuscripts?

[dms525]

Like most professional calligraphers, Arrighi had at his command many variations of his basic script as well as some one might not identify as italic.  A digitized copy with illustrations of these variations can be found Here: https://archive.org/details/laoperinadiludou00arri/page/n5/mode/2up 

 

FYI, the reference in the document to Ugo da Carpi is to the fellow who carved Arrighi's text into wooden blocks from which the book was printed.

 

David

 

 

[Grayspoole]

David, thanks for posting the link to the digital Operina. I have a copy of John Benson’s edition, but the digitized original pages are better. And it is certainly true that Arrighi was a master of different styles, including the fascinating mercantile script as well gothic forms. I have been focusing on pages from  Arrighi’s Petrarch mss, like this one, that display a finely scaled and consistent chancery bookhand:

 

 

But carefully studying  any single page by Arrighi or Cataneo provides many insights.  For example, these two pages from Cataneo exhibit different treatments of serifs:

 

Ars longa, vita brevis!

[txomsy]

Note that I am only an amateur. My judgement may be totally unfounded.

 

From what I have seen in various writing books, there were a number of styles, all more or less related at the time, often with specific uses. Now, I would bet that a chancellery would have to produce many different documents and, accordingly, writers working there would have to dominate the various hands.

 

Another thing I have observed is that writers often do as they please when it comes to personal uses and taste. So, may be on official documents you will use the official letter forms, but on correspondence and personal writing, you have more freedom and can therefore write as you see fit. Of course you would like to impress your correspondent, but that also implies you feel more freedom to mix and match, use or abuse flourishes, include devices for efficiency or quickness, etc...

 

It is not uncommon to see documents where the author mixes styles and letter forms. It is writing, not calligraphy, so the form is less important as long as it looks good enough to achieve the communication goal.

 

This is to say, when one looks, one may see many variants of the "same hand" (e.g. cancelleresca), some done on purpose (like the shape of serifs or inclination), some haphazardly and some resulting from "contamination" from another popular hand. These often resulted in what were called "b a s t a r d" hands ('cos they came from many different parents).

[Fermata]

I was taught calligraphy at evening class, one of the techniques, early techniques, you guys may have surpassed this, is to use two pencils to practice itallic script.

 

Take two sharpened hex pencils of about the same length and ideally 2H or harder, stand them at 90 degrees and tape them together. They have now become an itallic nib, albeit a wide one. Hold the pencils so that both both are  in line on the page and practice your itallics, downstrokes and curves especially.

 

When you have mastered the perfect 0 with the thinnest stroke at 10 oclock and 4 oclock, ramp it up a little, take the tape off and set the points so that they are staggered, just a couple of mm,  repeat the exercises as if you are now using a left foot oblique.

 

Set the two pencils vertically and you will have an arabic nib and can therefore create the thinnest downstrokes and broad horizontals.

 

I hope that you will enjoy this exercise.

 

 

[dms525]

10 hours ago, Fermata said:

I was taught calligraphy at evening class, one of the techniques, early techniques, you guys may have surpassed this, is to use two pencils to practice itallic script.

 

Take two sharpened hex pencils of about the same length and ideally 2H or harder, stand them at 90 degrees and tape them together. They have now become an itallic nib, albeit a wide one. Hold the pencils so that both both are  in line on the page and practice your itallics, downstrokes and curves especially.

 

When you have mastered the perfect 0 with the thinnest stroke at 10 oclock and 4 oclock, ramp it up a little, take the tape off and set the points so that they are staggered, just a couple of mm,  repeat the exercises as if you are now using a left foot oblique.

 

Set the two pencils vertically and you will have an arabic nib and can therefore create the thinnest downstrokes and broad horizontals.

 

I hope that you will enjoy this exercise.

 

 

This is a good technique. It really makes errors in nib angle and angle consistency more obvious.

 

Using a "shadow nib" has similar benefits. Bock makes a #5 shadow nib which is available for Kaweco pens, for example. You can also buy or make a custom shadow nib for Pilot Parallel pens. 

 

I posted an example of shadow nib writing in this forum some time ago. Here's a link: 

My photos were deleted to clean up my attachments some time ago.

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

On 11/15/2013 at 8:01 PM, Mr Snuffles said:

I think I'll enjoy this topic very much!

Here's my entry:

This will do! 🙂 I know it is an old post but I just discovered this topic here.  I like the size and love the writing!

[dms525]

2 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

This will do! 🙂 I know it is an old post but I just discovered this topic here.  I like the size and love the writing!

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of italic handwriting!

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

1 hour ago, dms525 said:

Welcome to the wonderful world of italic handwriting!

You are here too David?! Lol!  I like your writing samples too.

 

Felipe's style is one way I would like to write.  Just need to figure out how! 🙂

[PhiloPlume]

On 3/13/2024 at 6:02 PM, dms525 said:

 

Welcome to the wonderful world of italic handwriting!

I bought a fantastic used book from abebooks.com  "The Italic Way to Beautiful Handwriting" by Fred Eager.  Some exercises were filled in but that is okay.  Just the large letters.  Has Guide Sheets and how to grind nibs!

 

The writing is beautiful like the title says.  Not all the writing is too big but he suggest a broad italic nib.  Must have shrunk down some of the pictures.

 

I am not sure I have the write pens and nibs but I bet I must!

 

-paul

[dms525]

19 minutes ago, PhiloPlume said:

I bought a fantastic used book from abebooks.com  "The Italic Way to Beautiful Handwriting" by Fred Eager.  Some exercises were filled in but that is okay.  Just the large letters.  Has Guide Sheets and how to grind nibs!

 

The writing is beautiful like the title says.  Not all the writing is too big but he suggest a broad italic nib.  Must have shrunk down some of the pictures.

 

I am not sure I have the write pens and nibs but I bet I must!

 

-paul

 

I think Fred Eager's book is one of the better ones. Pay attention to the letter shapes and ductus (the order and direction of pen strokes), not the letter size.  Start learning by writing large letters. Use that F-C music nib. Just remember, that regardless of the nib width, letters should be 4 or 5 pen widths high for minuscules and 7 pen widths high for majuscules. Do you know how to make a "nib ladder" to determine the optimum "x-height" of letters? Eager's book has instructions on the top of Page 103. Look at "Fig. 1." 

 

The last batch of pens you reported getting should be quite adequate.

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

1 hour ago, dms525 said:

Do you know how to make a "nib ladder" to determine the optimum "x-height" of letters? Eager's book has instructions on the top of Page 103. Look at "Fig. 1." 

 

The last batch of pens you reported getting should be quite adequate.

 

Never heard of a nib ladder! Nice!  There it is!

 

I also have three other pens with nibs that you would probably love (besides the Pilot Stub) hehe am being a wise cracker.  Don't know how I ended up buying these:

 

Duke Charlie Chaplin Fude Broad Nib
Monteverde Stub
Pilot E95S

 

I also have this set: https://www.ellingtonpens.com/products/calligraphy-set

 

Broad 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5 and a whopping 3.0 along with a Bent nib .8-1mm

 

I had no idea it contain all/any of those way broad nibs.

 

Not sure if I have the finances to feed these big guys! 🙂

 

-paul

 

 

Edited March 15 by PhiloPlume

[PhiloPlume]

>The last batch of pens you reported getting should be quite adequate.

 

I think so too!

 

Do you see anything that you like David from the new stuff I listed? 

 

Thanks again, very much.

 

-paul

[dms525]

18 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

 

Never heard of a nib ladder! Nice!  There it is!

 

I also have three other pens with nibs that you would probably love (besides the Pilot Stub) hehe am being a wise cracker.  Don't know how I ended up buying these:

 

Duke Charlie Chaplin Fude Broad Nib
Monteverde Stub
Pilot E95S

 

I also have this set: https://www.ellingtonpens.com/products/calligraphy-set

 

Broad 1.0, 1.5, 2.0, 2.5 and a whopping 3.0 along with a Bent nib .8-1mm

 

I had no idea it contain all/any of those way broad nibs.

 

Not sure if I have the finances to feed these big guys! 🙂

 

-paul

 

 

 

Re. your newly ordered pens: 

 

* Fude nibs are meant to emulate brush writing, e.g., for Japanese calligraphy. It's not for European scripts but some find them fun to play with.

 

* I have no experience with Monteverde pens or nibs.

 

* The Pilot E95S is a great pen, but not for calligraphy.

 

* The Ellingtonpens appear to have some nibs that may be useful. I have no experience with them.

 

I doubt any of these will match the quality and utility of the Franklin-Christoph nibs or the Pilot SU nib for your purposes. If you are looking for low cost pens with very good nibs for calligraphy, another option is the OPUS88 pens with either #5 or #6 stubs.

 

David

[PhiloPlume]

3 hours ago, dms525 said:

doubt any of these will match the quality and utility of the Franklin-Christoph nibs or the Pilot SU nib for your purposes. If you are looking for low cost pens with very good nibs for calligraphy, another option is the OPUS88 pens with either #5 or #6 stubs.

 

F-C is out of the cursive italic nibs for a couple of weeks now,#6 MCI.  I asked them about the cursive italic but Kaitlyn says it is fun to play with but broader bold lines:

 

"It's a nice nib. One of the favorites around here. It's closest to a Broad Stub by Nagahara. A couple of the guys here tend to put in 1.1cc nibs when the demo pens. But they do the steel of course. The 1.1 in 14K is popular, just know that it will be a broader bolder line. "

 

Love my Franklin-Christophs!  Thanks! But I am really liking the Pilot Metal Fine Falcon a lot (2nd place now behind the F-C Cursive Italics)

[PhiloPlume]

4 hours ago, dms525 said:

f you are looking for low cost pens with very good nibs for calligraphy, another option is the OPUS88 pens with either #5 or #6 stubs.

 

What is a #5 or #6 exactly?

 

I have a couple Pilot Metropolitan's with the CM nib and I think they are great for the money.  I like writing italic with them.

[dms525]

14 hours ago, PhiloPlume said:

 

What is a #5 or #6 exactly?

 

I have a couple Pilot Metropolitan's with the CM nib and I think they are great for the money.  I like writing italic with them.

It's the size of the nib carrier. Your F-C nibs are #6. Except for a few custom-made nibs, most modern nibs are #5, #6 or #8.

 

 

Left to Right:#5, #6, #8 nibs.

[PhiloPlume]

12 hours ago, dms525 said:

t's the size of the nib carrier. Your F-C nibs are #6. Except for a few custom-made nibs, most modern nibs are #5, #6 or #8.

Okay, so the nib points are the same.

 

Thanks for taking the photo.  I will look for an OPUS 88 now.  Might as well 🙂

 

-paul

[dms525]

19 minutes ago, PhiloPlume said:

Okay, so the nib points are the same.

 

Thanks for taking the photo.  I will look for an OPUS 88 now.  Might as well 🙂

 

-paul

 

The nibs are all stub or cursive italics. They are different widths.