Learning Italic

[Inky.Fingers]

http://i.imgur.com/d2RRSWF.jpg Edited January 24, 2019 by _InkyFingers

[Inky.Fingers]

Learning how to write Cancellarescha (aka italic) is firstly, learn how to hold a pen and how to write with it.

 

How does one correctly held the pen?

[Tuderte]

 

I hope that this will upload. It's taken from the Fred Eager book 'The Italic Way to Beautiful Handwriting' - I changed the extension from .pdf to .jpg but I'm unsure as to the resolution. This is my first attempt to upload and it's not actually a photograph, so unsure as to whether it will work.

 

If it does, then you will see that it has a photograph of the correct pen hold for writing Italic.

 

I hope this helps.

[Ryan5]

I find a larger pen better for practice, but then I write a more calligraphic italic with a dip pen more often than with my fountain pens.

[RoyalBlueNotebooks]

Update:

Rohrer & Klingner Alt-Goldgrun on low quality paper:

 

 

Diamine Macassar on low quality paper:

 

 

 

Diamine Ochre on Clairefontaine:

 

 

Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black:

 

 

Diamine Havasu Turquoise on Fabriano EcoQua:

[bobje]

RoyalBlue, I’ve heard good things about the Fabriano paper. Do you enjoy it?

[RoyalBlueNotebooks]

RoyalBlue, I’ve heard good things about the Fabriano paper. Do you enjoy it?

Generally yes, I have a few EcoQua notebooks and an Ocra notepad. Most inks behave very well, but the paper doesn't show off sheen as easily as, say, Rhodia or Clairefontaine, because it's not coated. I love the fact that it's slightly rough, though, gives a nice feeling to the writing.

Big downside is the fact that some inks bleed through it, especially the more extra-saturated Diamine inks.

But all in all, it's a good quality paper and I'm glad to support an historical brand of my home country.

[dms525]

I wonder if someone could explain to me why 'most' cursive italic seems to be written with a Medium nib at an x-height of less than 3mms? I understand that the x-height and the nib size (or nib line size) are inextricably related, but I'm just wondering why the desired x-height is so small - or, is it perhaps that I'm the only one who finds less than 3mm as 'uncomfortably small'?

 

I've only been learning the Italic hand for a couple of months and I'm teaching myself using Fred Eager's 'The Italic Way to Beautiful Handwriting - Cursive and Calligraphic' for daily exercises and practice and I've also printed out Lloyd Reynolds' 'Italic Calligraphy and Handwriting Exercises and Text' which I'm also working through while watching his television programs via YouTube. I find the Lloyd Reynolds' videos invaluable for the ability to see how he writes the letters and his explanations of why he does things in a particular manner.

 

I've now reached Project VI in the Eager book where I've changed from the Broad nib down to the Medium nib which, according to the Eager book, is the most 'commonly used size'. When I set out on this journey I bought myself an old Osmiroid 75 fountain pen and a set of six Osmiroid italic nibs, which I've been using since I started and I find them completely enjoyable.

 

My problem now is that, for the cursive italic mode the Medium nib is meant to be used with Guide Sheet 5, which has an x-height of 2.5 or 3 mms (it is ruled at both but, because they're so close together it looks either cramped or messy, whichever I choose).

 

Because I'm learning the Italic hand for my own enjoyment and, because I'm never going to need to be able to write at speed, I'm asking myself whether my education will be incomplete if I decide to not pursue the smaller nibs?

 

I'm happy to use the Medium nib but I really wonder why I would want to use the Fine, let alone the Extra Fine nibs which will mean a corresponding reduction in the size of my writing. In fact, I'm struggling with the present 'less than 3 mms' using the Medium nib and I find that in the exercises - no matter how hard I try - when I have to join from the lower case 'e' it ends up being 'filled in' - which I hate. I also don't really agree (nothing like someone who knows nothing having a strong opinion on the subject) with the way the Eager book tries to join almost every lower case letter unless it precedes a letter with an ascender or follows one with a descender - I find a lot of these joins quite ugly - I know they're possible but I don't see how anyone could describe them as 'beautiful'. I wonder whether this is something that's only done in pursuit of speed, which I don't need?

 

I would be very grateful for any replies - I note that this thread doesn't seem to have much activity but, hopefully, someone might read my query and respond.

 

Tricia

 

Tricia,

 

I'm not sure that there is an answer to your question. The preferred x-height is going to depend on the writer's personal preference and the application of the moment.

 

It may help to consider that the relationship between nib width and x-height is generally x-height is 4 to 5 nib widths. That is to say, if a nib writes a line 0.8 mm wide, the x-height would be 3.2 to 4.0 mm. That is for italic. Gothic scripts, for example, may require darker letters - x-height of 2-3 nib widths.

 

I hope this helps. If not, please try to clarify your question.

 

David

[dms525]

Here are the line widths in mm for Osmiroid nibs;

 

XF=05

F=0.75

M=0.9

B=1.4

B2=1.5

B3=2.0

B4=2.5

 

David

[Tuderte]

Many thanks for the response David.

 

Yes, I think that what you say answers my question, in that the response seems to be 'No, it's not essential that the x-height be 2 or 2.5mm'. The reason for my asking was that I had noticed that a lot of (really very beautiful) italic that I've seen posted by Ken Fraser seems to be written an an x-height of 2.5 mm and I was thinking that I should probably give up if that were the 'correct' x-height. I know, too, that the original 'cancelleresca cursiva' from the 16th century also seems to have been written at a very small x-height - but I put that down to the Church's determination that their scribes should squeeze as many lines on to a sheet of, presumably expensive, paper or parchment as was possible.

 

I've been writing with the Medium nib for a couple of weeks now and don't have any problems with it. Using your line width of 0.9 mm for the Osmiroid Medium nib and an x-height of 4 to 5 nib widths, that would be mean an x-height between 3.6 and 4.5 mms, which is probably taller than the x-height I've become accustomed to.

 

I tried out the Fine nib a couple of days ago and didn't really find much difference between that and the Medium - other than that there was less line variation (that may be different for someone who's more practised) using the Fine nib. I had to give up on it because, after writing a few lines the feed kept drying up, which hasn't happened on any of my other Osmiroid nibs. I have it soaking in water to see if perhaps there were some minuscule dust particles or something that may have lodged in that tiny plastic channel that I couldn't see. I'll give it another try in a few days.

 

Thank you, too, for posting the Osmiroid line widths - it's comforting to know that my test lines on the 'Extended Nib Width Chart' that I downloaded from the FPN site were all accurate. Although I thought that my Fine was 0.7 mms but I really wouldn't be competent to see the difference between 0.7 and 0.75mms on a sheet of paper printed on 80 gsm paper with my ink jet printer.

 

Tricia

[RoyalBlueNotebooks]

To Tricia, I've tried using the traditional proportion between the nib and the x-height and I always find the x-height too big for me, so I do whatever I want. XD

 

Pelikan 4001 Blue-Black

 

 

Diamine Shimmertastic Shimmering Seas

 

 

 

[Tuderte]

Hi there RBN,

 

Would you happen to know the width in mms of the Pilot Pluminix B nib? Many thanks,

 

Tricia

[Tuderte]

At the beginning of November I started to learn the Italic hand, using the Fred Eager book 'The Italic Way to Beautiful Handwriting - Cursive and Calligraphic' as well as Lloyd Reynolds' 'Italic Calligraphy and Handwriting Exercises and Text' - both of which I downloaded from the internet and printed out as my guides. I also refer constantly to the Lloyd Reynolds 30 minute TV programs that are available for viewing on YouTube.

 

I am aware that I need to do many, many more hours of practice on all aspects of my writing, however, I'm concerned that because I'm learning by myself from material I've downloaded and from watching videos, I run the risk of practising 'bad' habits that will become very difficult to 'un-learn'.

 

I have attached a sample of some practice that I did last night and I would be very grateful for any criticism/comments that would point out what I'm doing incorrectly and what I should concentrate on.

 

The pen I used for the example is an Osmiroid Italic Medium Straight nib - the x-height is 3 mms.

 

 

Tricia

 

 

 

 

[RoyalBlueNotebooks]

Hi there RBN,

 

Would you happen to know the width in mms of the Pilot Pluminix B nib? Many thanks,

 

Tricia

 

Honestly I have no idea, but I had bookmarked a FPN discussion about this topic:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/topic/325172-pilot-pluminix-italic-f-m-b/

[Tuderte]

Thanks for that .... I read through the thread but then I found something on John Neal's website that says the three Pilot F M and B italic nib sizes are between 0.75mm and 1.00 mm - he also says that the M is 'about 0.8 mm' so I guess that answers my question. I'm assuming that the nibs for the Plumix and Pluminix are the same ...

[Inky.Fingers]

IMHO, which nib to use is inconsequential to writing italics. Traditionally, it is much easier to use a broader nib to understand the letter form and learning to write with a broad edged pen.

One will graduate to a less broader pen when one fells comfortable with the transition. As one cannot write a small passage without filling the entire page with x-height of 2.5mm.

 

It is preferred if one can pickup any sized broad edge pen and be comfortable. And to 4x vs 5x for height...it is a preference. & Unless you move your paper, as instructed by Reynold's video...you'll

need to practice your slant...

 

[dms525]

Tricia,

 

For having begun working on italic handwriting so recently, your practice sheet looks wonderful! Letter forms are good. I'm sure you can see the occasional goof-up as well as I. I noticed a consistent problem with inconsistent slope of ascenders and descenders. They tend to be more upright than your minuscules bodies. You could also work on the angle of your entry strokes. Some look to be at a shallower angle than ideal. But, this is really reaching. Bottom line is I am very impressed with your italic hand, especially for how new you are to it.

 

As you progress, you will find more and more hints in Reynolds' videos. They are like the Bible, or Alice in Wonderland. They continue to reveal their secrets and subtleties, as you are ready and able to appreciate them.

 

Happy writing.

 

David

Edited February 7, 2019 by dms525

[Tuderte]

David,

 

Thank you so much for your kind words and encouragement!

 

More importantly, though, thank you for your constructive comments about the inconsistencies in the slope of my ascenders and descenders. Obviously, I abandoned the slope 'guide' in the Eager book far too early. I've printed out three copies and stuck them together with sellotape so I now have an A4 size 'slope guide', which I'll be placing under my practice sheets from now on - and doing lots of d's, b's, l's, f's, p's and q's - whoops, forgot h, k, g, j and y - wow, a lot of work to be going on with - I think that's about half the alphabet.

 

I'll also revisit the earlier Lloyd Reynolds videos on the weekend, too. At the beginning I was very keen to progress to the next lesson but I see that I have to slow down and get the basics right first.

 

Can I ask about the 'angle of the entry strokes'? I have to confess my ignorance - maybe they're what I was calling the 'serifs'? Perhaps it was in one of those early Lloyd Reynolds programs to which I should have paid more attention?

 

Tricia

[dms525]

Hi, Tricia.

 

"Entry stroke" is the initial stroke of letters like n, m, u, r, etc. This stroke should be a hairline, until you make the turn from an up and to the right stroke to a downward stroke. Your challenge is that, in order for this to be a hairline, you need to 1) be holding your pen with a strict 45º angle to the horizontal and 2) make the stroke at 45º diagonal to the writing line. I hope that makes sense to you.

 

Here is a worksheet Jaki Svaren made. Look at the initial stokes of her n, m, r, u, etc.

 

 

Jaki was a student of Lloyd Reynolds in the 1950's. FYI, here is a photo I took of her in 2015.

 

 

Jaki's fabulous book, "Written Letters," is going to be back in print in a new edition any month now. I saw Jaki and her editor reviewing galley proofs last June.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[Tuderte]

David,

 

Thank you so very much for the Jaki Svaren worksheet - this is almost like getting something directly from Lloyd Reynolds himself!

 

I opened the link to the worksheet in a new tab and then enlarged it to 130% and printed it out in landscape format from my browser - it's as clear as day and I'll be able to spend a lot of time going through it in great detail and practising my entry strokes.

 

I'll also keep my eyes peeled for a new thread advising that 'Written Letters' is now available - I hope that it can be purchased from outside the US?

 

Tricia