Learning Italic

[KaB]

Another evening of exercising:

 

[KaB]

And some fun poem to end with:

 

 

who can guess the author?

[KaB]

(It's in Dutch and hard to translate 'cause there's a word-joke. It talks about a rabbit swimming with lot of tuna fishes, shrugging and saying: 'that's what happens when you can't pronounce the "k" ' (in Dutch, rabit is Konijn and tuna is Tonijn)).

 

(oh how I hate to explain jokes, but I can't expect you all to be tri- or quadrilingual. And even then, who would choose Dutch even as his or her fourth language). (Slightly getting of topic, am I?, all comments on where to focus first for improving my handwriting more than welcome!)

[dms525]

KaB -

 

It's nice to have you join this topic. I think it is meant to be the place to display our progress and to get advice on our italic writing.

 

It looks like you have an instructional manual, although I don't recognize it from the pages you show. And it looks like you have a pen with an italic nib.

 

From your writing, the first thing that strikes me is that you have your nib almost parallel to the writing line. It should be rotated to 45º and kept there (except for some advanced special effects). The second thing is that most of your letters that "branch" such as n, m, h and b are branching too low. The branch off the vertical downstroke should occur half way between the writing line and the waistline (the top of the letter body). But I see that (in my opinion) error in the book you are using. <sigh> It may also help you to remember that the basic shape of most italic letter bodies is an oval, not a circle.

 

I hope others with more expertise than I will chime in to advise you.

 

David

[GClef]

Thanks to this thread I bought a manuscript set. I tried to follow the sticky for chancery but several pictures are missing from there. Will need to think of a guidesheet as my slants are all over the place. But I think I need to fix the shapes first.

http://imageshack.com/a/img35/5459/9c1z.jpg

 

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/r0ia.jpg

 

GClef, sorry for your neck. Will rotate my images in future. Promise (kinda)

There...it's been driving me CRAZY!

[KaB]

KaB -

 

It's nice to have you join this topic. I think it is meant to be the place to display our progress and to get advice on our italic writing.

 

It looks like you have an instructional manual, although I don't recognize it from the pages you show. And it looks like you have a pen with an italic nib.

 

From your writing, the first thing that strikes me is that you have your nib almost parallel to the writing line. It should be rotated to 45º and kept there (except for some advanced special effects). The second thing is that most of your letters that "branch" such as n, m, h and b are branching too low. The branch off the vertical downstroke should occur half way between the writing line and the waistline (the top of the letter body). But I see that (in my opinion) error in the book you are using. <sigh> It may also help you to remember that the basic shape of most italic letter bodies is an oval, not a circle.

 

I hope others with more expertise than I will chime in to advise you.

 

David

 

Hi David,

 

So this IS the place to be.

 

To begin at the top:

- my instruction manual was recommended on FPN, I got it as a download (easy to print the exercise sheets):

 

 

- pen this was written with: Lamy Vista with 1.5 stub nib

 

 

- angle: I'm sure it shifts a lot during one line of text, nice suggestion to pay extra attention to the right (and consistent) angle.

 

- your remark on the branching letters: I'm sorry, but I don't fully understand it; (Just a matter of vocabulary probably)

 

 

- my fault or the guides fault? Here's a sample of the entire abc as I found it in the book:

 

 

CU

[JordanLH]

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag32/akustyk/IMG_7762_zps457c3343.jpg

Wow, your handwriting is great! I'm just starting to work on my italic handwriting, and this is very inspirational.

[dms525]

KaB -

 

The following illustrations are from Fred Eager's book, "The Italic Way to Beautiful Handwriting." I hope they help you understand my point regarding "branching."

 

 

 

Briem's letters branch much lower. The criticism of this has been that, as writing speed increases, legibility decreases. v and r can be confused, for example. You know, none of these "rules" were handed down on Mount Sinai. The decision is yours, but it helps to understand the consequences for legibility, speed and aesthetics.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[KaB]

KaB -

 

The following illustrations are from Fred Eager's book, "The Italic Way to Beautiful Handwriting." I hope they help you understand my point regarding "branching."

 

 

Briem's letters branch much lower. The criticism of this has been that, as writing speed increases, legibility decreases. v and r can be confused, for example. You know, none of these "rules" were handed down on Mount Sinai. The decision is yours, but it helps to understand the consequences for legibility, speed and aesthetics.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

 

@ David

Thx for taking the time to not only explain it but even share some scans (or pics). So this Eager book would be your recommendation to shift my learning proces to a higher gear? (Those two pages do give the impression of a more thorough approach)

 

Meantime, I'll focus on my 45° angle ...

[smk]

David, thank you for sharing that piece by Lloyd Reynolds. It is very interesting in how he has interpreted the Batarde to suit his style. The flexibility of this form of writing is one of the things I love about it - being the cursive variant of the very structured Gothic hands it allows a lot of room for personal interpretation.

 

The change in slant seems quite deliberate to me though. The letterforms do change with the slant but I think that is only natural.

 

I encourage you to follow through the lessons from Geoff. They opened my eyes to a whole new level of Calligraphy and helped me in all aspects of penmanship. It even helped me improve my Arabic Calligraphy by starting to see negative spaces and elements of balance a bit better.

 

Salman

[dms525]

 

@ David

Thx for taking the time to not only explain it but even share some scans (or pics). So this Eager book would be your recommendation to shift my learning proces to a higher gear? (Those two pages do give the impression of a more thorough approach)

 

Meantime, I'll focus on my 45° angle ...

 

I took the illustration from Eager's book because it addressed your question clearly. It is a good book, but I was not recommending it particularly. Many like the books by Barbara Getty and Inga Dubay: "Write Now" and "Italic Letters." My favorite is actually Lloyd Reynolds' "Italic Calligraphy & Handwriting." This is a small and inexpensive work book. Reynolds made a series of 20 videos for Oregon Public Broadcasting that follows the lessons in his workbook. The videos are viewable at no charge through youtube.com and also through the Apple iTunes U web site. In either iTunes U or youtube, a search for "Lloyd Reynolds calligraphy" should get you to them. Personally, I find the combination of reading the workbook and then watching the videos to actually see the movements that make the letters very helpful.

 

If cost is not a barrier, having more than one book gives you multiple perspectives. One approach may work best for you, even if it doesn't work for me.

 

One more piece of advice: I think with any art or craft, there is value in a disciplined approach to learning basic skills and developing good habits. In handwriting, where motor memory is so important, this is especially true. So, learning the classic letter forms is worth the effort, even if your long-term goal is a personal, individualistic italic hand.

 

So, enjoy the process, and share your progress with the forum!

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[dms525]

David, thank you for sharing that piece by Lloyd Reynolds. It is very interesting in how he has interpreted the Batarde to suit his style. The flexibility of this form of writing is one of the things I love about it - being the cursive variant of the very structured Gothic hands it allows a lot of room for personal interpretation.

 

The change in slant seems quite deliberate to me though. The letterforms do change with the slant but I think that is only natural.

 

I encourage you to follow through the lessons from Geoff. They opened my eyes to a whole new level of Calligraphy and helped me in all aspects of penmanship. It even helped me improve my Arabic Calligraphy by starting to see negative spaces and elements of balance a bit better.

 

Salman

 

Hi, Salman.

 

If you look closely at the Reynolds piece, you will see that the "italicized" lines are the chorus of the roundel. The upright lettering resumes with the following verse as do the "more gothic" letter forms.

 

FYI, I exchanged emails with Gay Walker, the Special Collections Librarian and Stephanie Snyder, the Director and Curator of the Cooley Gallery at Reed College. They co-curated the Lloyd Reynolds exhibit in 2011 the catalogue of which contains the piece I posted. Greg McNaughton, the Education Director for the Cooley Gallery, who also runs a weekly educational "Scriptorium," teaching italic to members of the Reed community, also joined the "conversation." Bottom line is that this is a piece of work that Reynolds never completed. No one seems to know why. It is more than a planned draft, I would say, since, Gay told me, it is on vellum.

 

If you are interested, the Reynolds Exhibit Catalogue contains another small piece in a version of Gothic Bâtarde that is less cursive. And I have a collection of "Edged Pen Alphabets" made by Reynolds in 1954, shortly after he started formally teaching calligraphy and after a visit to Portland by Arnold Bank in 1951 who, I have been told, shifted Reynolds focus from paleography and italic script exclusively to a broader perspective on calligraphic hands. It has a plate with both Gothic Bâtarde and Secretary Hand minuscule alphabets. But, maybe this is too tangential to this topic - Learning Italic.

 

I have read through Geoff's lessons and his delightful interactions with his "students." I have saved those pages and printed the ones pertaining to Gothic Bâtarde. I very much admire his teaching style, and I learned quite a lot. I didn't participate because I didn't feel I could commit to sufficient time. Maybe an excuse. Maybe a mistake.

 

David

[smk]

Interesting story about the unfinished piece - thank you for sharing it.

 

I am very much interested in studying the Batarde piece in the Reynolds Exhibit Catalogue - is a scan of it available online? I find Reynold's expression of a particular hand to be very interesting (as opposed to the 'correct' form in instruction material). I have learned a lot about style from studying pictures of his Weathergrams.

 

I have a scanned copy of the Edged Pen Alphabets - it makes for very interesting study. I particularly enjoyed Plate 17 and the associated instructions on how to produce English Roundhand with both an edged pen and a flexible pointed nib.

 

I think you should start the lessons with Geoff. While I provide most feedback now (Geoff's eyesight has greatly deteriorated) he does step in from time to time. The reason I recommend it though is that you would get to know Geoff. He really cares about his students and is a great person to know.

 

You are right about straying from the topic of the thread but this is part of the learning too - right?

 

S.

 

 

[dms525]

Interesting story about the unfinished piece - thank you for sharing it.

 

I am very much interested in studying the Batarde piece in the Reynolds Exhibit Catalogue - is a scan of it available online? I find Reynold's expression of a particular hand to be very interesting (as opposed to the 'correct' form in instruction material). I have learned a lot about style from studying pictures of his Weathergrams.

 

I have a scanned copy of the Edged Pen Alphabets - it makes for very interesting study. I particularly enjoyed Plate 17 and the associated instructions on how to produce English Roundhand with both an edged pen and a flexible pointed nib.

 

I think you should start the lessons with Geoff. While I provide most feedback now (Geoff's eyesight has greatly deteriorated) he does step in from time to time. The reason I recommend it though is that you would get to know Geoff. He really cares about his students and is a great person to know.

 

You are right about straying from the topic of the thread but this is part of the learning too - right?

 

S.

 

 

 

I don't think the catalogue contents are available online. I will scan the two pages I think will particularly interest you and put them in a personal message. I think the other 101 things I want to say would be better said elsewhere.

 

Regards,

 

David

[KaB]

Ordered two books to intensify the learning proces a little and give it more direction. But they'll have to come from the UK and the US respectively, so in the mean time, trying to do sth about the tendency to write realy ugly y's. (with the 2nd downward stroke at a different angle than the first)..

 

[smk]

KaB - it is great that you are identifying individual elements in your writing and focusing on fixing the errors. This is a great way to improve.

 

The last line (obviously getting tired) is well written. The spacing in 'getting' is nice.

 

Salman

[caliken]

During the resurrection of my missing posts a while ago, I seem to have missed this one. As there were a couple of comments concerning it, I'm posting it again here, to maintain continuity.

 

[caliken]

A little Formal Italic

 

[caliken]

As has been said many times before, Italic is a versatile style of lettering: arguably the most versatile.

 

In this example, I have written very light, Formal Italic. All that has really changed from the previous post, is the x height in relation to nib width, but it makes a considerable difference to the overall appearance: not better or worse - just different.

 

[caliken]

This was written as a descriptive panel for a local Art Gallery for fixing to the back of a painting.

 

The lettering is a little bit squarer than usual (extended), giving it a slightly squat look - this was intentional!

 

Edited July 21, 2014 by Ken Fraser