How To Write Properly? Finger Writing Vs Whole Arm Writing?

[Bo Bo Olson]

If you go into advanced search to "classic tripod" or "Death Grip", with in these two threads a tripod variant the 'forefinger up' method of grasping a fountain pen is discussed.

 

I changed from the classic tripod after 50 some odd years of Death Grip, to the forefinger up method. It took three minutes.

My fatigue left, the pain I had in the nail at the joint of my middle forefinger stopped...because I moved the pen down 1/3 of an inch.

 

The thumb at 09-09:30 braces....does not press. If you don't post, the thumb is about 1/3 into the front joint of your index finger. If you post, then the thumb is even with the crease.

 

 

The forefinger lays on top....12-12:30 or 13:00 and just lays there holding the pen in my hand by it's weight alone. It is not bent into the air....it is 'long', rather flat....rather not ruler flat.

 

I'm not Gripping. I'm letting the pen rest in my hand.

Automatic light grip from the first minute...no years of learning like with the classic tripod.

 

The first few days, you might have to think to use this way of grasping a pen, but by the end of week, you'll have to think, to go back to your old uncomfordable grip.

Which is only good on the Safari and the old US P-75.

[Mickey]

  On 11/12/2013 at 8:43 PM, Bo Bo Olson said:

If you go into advanced search to "classic tripod" or "Death Grip", with in these two threads a tripod variant the 'forefinger up' method of grasping a fountain pen is discussed.

This isn't helpful, BoBo. Let's give the OP a chance to try the grip which works for most people. Besides, your forefinger up grip really isn't anything other than a tripod grip with wrist rotated a bit counter clockwise. It looks more different than it is. BTW, it's the grip I use. It's the old fashioned form, but it's still fundamentally tripod. I also agree that the best use of a Safari is as a tent peg.

 

 

Here's a holder with an 'editorial' grip where the maker (Bill Lilly) got the angles correct. Hint to Lamy: it isn't an equilateral triangle.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Mickey

[bobjohnson201]

  On 11/12/2013 at 9:24 PM, Mickey said:

This isn't helpful, BoBo. Let's give the OP a chance to try the grip which works for most people. Besides, your forefinger up grip really isn't anything other than a tripod grip with wrist rotated a bit counter clockwise. It looks more different than it is. BTW, it's the grip I use. It's the old fashioned form, but it's still fundamentally tripod. I also agree that the best use of a Safari is as a tent peg.

 

 

Here's a holder with an 'editorial' grip where the maker (Bill Lilly) got the angles correct. Hint to Lamy: it isn't an equilateral triangle.

your thumb and forefinger aren't touching...

[Mickey]

  On 11/12/2013 at 9:51 PM, bobjohnson201 said:

your thumb and forefinger aren't touching...

This is a custom made holder, the cross section of which is not round. The slight separation is not significant, particularly considering the geometry of the grip section which encourages a soft grip. (If the pen feels secure in the hand, people generally do not grip tightly.) I posted the photo to show the position of my index finger for BoBo, not to instruct or help you. None the less, I think you can see where the finger and thumb should meet on a conventional section. Let me assure you with a round sectioned pen or holder, the corners of my thumb and index finger meet, even on large diameter pens.

[owend]

I used to be a teacher before retirement. I didn't offer criticism or advice to children about how they held a pen, by age ten or twelve they'd established their own method and if the end result was readable that was fine (although what they wrote was another matter entirely). There's lots of great advice in this post, but the key thing is you're still using a ballpoint. Seriously, get a fountain pen, with a round shaped barrel rather than a clever shape like a Safari, which demands that you hold it in a particular way, and which may not suit your grip. There are plenty of cheap school pens around for £10-ish.

 

Fountain pens give you much better feedback than ballpoints, rollerballs, fibretips or even lead pencils, and you'll also find you don't have to use as much pressure to make a line.

 

THAT means you don't have to hold the pen so firmly, although at first you may have to consciously make yourself hold it a bit looser if you've got an ingrained habit, and you'll get less writing fatigue.

 

And practice with your new pen by copy writing, eg a newspaper article or a book, so you don't have to think about what you're writing. Sounds boring, but it's easier than doing two jobs at once - composing a sentence and writing it!

[Dan308]

  On 11/12/2013 at 4:16 AM, bobjohnson201 said:

Yes, the cramping is related to the increased amounts I am writing. I am writing for work/study not for pleasure. I already changed to the tripod grip (see pictures above) but am still having issues when writing for extended periods of time - and am assuming its because I'm using my fingers to write not my arm? or holding the ballpoint too low (see pictures above)?

I would strongly suggest that at least a portion of your left to right motion across the page happens in your arm. The up and down and fine motor control happens in the fingers. This is not how they teach to write the traditional script, but for note-taking I would suggest that this is your best approach. You are likely going to get some cramping at first, no matter what, if you have just changed the way you hold your pen. You definitely need to abandon the ball point. Even a roller ball will write with a much lighter stroke...fountain pen, even better.

 

Writing with your arm is not going to eliminate any / all fatigue no matter what you do or for how long. Eventually, if you write long enough, you are going to get sore. The more you do it, the less it will happen—just like every other muscle group and exercise.

[bobjohnson201]

  On 11/13/2013 at 12:12 AM, Dan308 said:

I would strongly suggest that at least a portion of your left to right motion across the page happens in your arm. The up and down and fine motor control happens in the fingers. This is not how they teach to write the traditional script, but for note-taking I would suggest that this is your best approach. You are likely going to get some cramping at first, no matter what, if you have just changed the way you hold your pen. You definitely need to abandon the ball point. Even a roller ball will write with a much lighter stroke...fountain pen, even better.

 

Writing with your arm is not going to eliminate any / all fatigue no matter what you do or for how long. Eventually, if you write long enough, you are going to get sore. The more you do it, the less it will happen—just like every other muscle group and exercise.

thank you for this. i will go to the store tomorrow and start out with some disposable fountain pens. arm writing will not eliminate fatigue? i thought that was the benefit...

Edited November 13, 2013 by bobjohnson201

[bobjohnson201]

  On 11/13/2013 at 12:02 AM, owend said:

I used to be a teacher before retirement. I didn't offer criticism or advice to children about how they held a pen, by age ten or twelve they'd established their own method and if the end result was readable that was fine (although what they wrote was another matter entirely). There's lots of great advice in this post, but the key thing is you're still using a ballpoint. Seriously, get a fountain pen, with a round shaped barrel rather than a clever shape like a Safari, which demands that you hold it in a particular way, and which may not suit your grip. There are plenty of cheap school pens around for £10-ish.

 

Fountain pens give you much better feedback than ballpoints, rollerballs, fibretips or even lead pencils, and you'll also find you don't have to use as much pressure to make a line.

 

THAT means you don't have to hold the pen so firmly, although at first you may have to consciously make yourself hold it a bit looser if you've got an ingrained habit, and you'll get less writing fatigue.

 

And practice with your new pen by copy writing, eg a newspaper article or a book, so you don't have to think about what you're writing. Sounds boring, but it's easier than doing two jobs at once - composing a sentence and writing it!

can you recommend some good ones to start with? some quick drying ink too?

[Randal6393]

For students actually using "whole arm movement", check out Lloyd Reynolds Calligraphy Exercises (Ex. # 4, IIRC) on YouTube, the Reed College channel.

 

At the end of the exercise, he shows his advanced writing class and focuses on using wrist/arm and relaxed writing. Very beneficial, no matter the style of writing one uses.

 

Enjoy,

[Moshe ben David]

I think I have a bit different pov based on your posts and photos. The emphasis on grip and hand movements vs arm movements to alleviate the cramping made me think of the impact of the size of the pen/pencil as well as the weight. I know for myself that using a slim pen or pencil for extended periods leads to some cramping.

 

The "Dr. Grip" line of bp, gels, and pencils seem to help many people who find their hands cramping from writing. I know they are often recommended to people with arthritis -- not saying you have that; just illustrating the point. They're not very expensive and pretty widely available at place like Staples. The grips are bigger in diameter, and the implements are a bit heftier than most disposables (like the Signo in your photos).

 

I believe the pens are refillable; certainly the pencils are.

 

Maybe something like this would also help?

[DanF]

I'm in the big pen camp - a skinny pen hurts my hand even when it's held correctly. The most important factor though is how tightly you grip whatever pen you are using. For me, a skinny pen seems to encourage a tighter grip. I can relax more with a fatter pen. A Platinum Preppy or Plaisir is a good place to start. When the cap of the Preppy cracks, you can still use it in a Plaisir, the sections are interchangeable.

 

Dan

[dickydotcom]

  On 11/12/2013 at 4:34 AM, bobjohnson201 said:

What technique do most people use today for everyday writing? Finger or arm writing?

The heel of my hand rests on the desk. I do move my wrist and combine that with finger movement. I move the hand along every four or five letters.

Dick D

[readonly]

  On 11/13/2013 at 4:50 AM, Randal6393 said:

For students actually using "whole arm movement", check out Lloyd Reynolds Calligraphy Exercises (Ex. # 4, IIRC) on YouTube, the Reed College channel.

 

At the end of the exercise, he shows his advanced writing class and focuses on using wrist/arm and relaxed writing. Very beneficial, no matter the style of writing one uses.

 

Enjoy,

Are you referring to this?

 

I find that most students in that clip use way too much finger writing. Only at 25:06 there is some proper arm writing.

[Ernst Bitterman]

I feel an idiot for not also suggesting wider rather than narrower pens. Once you've got the gripping/movement technique sorted out, you can get away with narrow pens, but they're no fun for remedial work.

 

For the "finger atop" posture; here's a nice example WITH a rather slender instrument.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Gerard_ter_Borch_d._J._001.jpg/563px-Gerard_ter_Borch_d._J._001.jpg

Look how nice and relaxed those fingers are!

[bobjohnson201]

  On 11/13/2013 at 8:24 AM, DanF said:

I'm in the big pen camp - a skinny pen hurts my hand even when it's held correctly. The most important factor though is how tightly you grip whatever pen you are using. For me, a skinny pen seems to encourage a tighter grip. I can relax more with a fatter pen. A Platinum Preppy or Plaisir is a good place to start. When the cap of the Preppy cracks, you can still use it in a Plaisir, the sections are interchangeable.

 

Dan

what about this? http://www.amazon.com/Lamy-Safari-Fountain-Pen-Charcoal/dp/B0002T401Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384357909&sr=8-1&keywords=lamy+safari#productDetails

[Mickey]

  On 11/13/2013 at 3:33 PM, Ernst Bitterman said:

I feel an idiot for not also suggesting wider rather than narrower pens. Once you've got the gripping/movement technique sorted out, you can get away with narrow pens, but they're no fun for remedial work.

Good points, though for some (I have no idea what percentage) moving to an exceedingly thin pen can also help. (I've seen suggestions of using a piece of spaghetti for practice.) Whichever tactic one adopts or finds effective, the idea is to make it difficult (or unnecessary) to squeeze the barrel between the forefinger and thumb.

 

It might be of some interest, but one way to apply shades in Copperplate or Spencerian is by squeezing the pen between the index finger and thumb (counter-clockwise shade) or between thumb and middle finger (clock-wise shade). This obviously requires that the pen not be squeezed the rest of the time, but merely contained by the grip.

[Ernst Bitterman]

While I'm throwing pictures around, here's one from a Waterman's catalogue of the 1920s-- I forget which of their points they said suited this grip, but that's aside the point here. What is to the point is that this grip would pretty much defeat finger-driven writing, but works well enough when the arm's in charge (yes, I did try it).

 

http://ravensmarch.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/1925chaney.jpg

 

It's not what we'd call "perfect technique", even though it is after a fashion a tripod grip, and yet it comes from an age when yardstick-wielding nuns had no bag limit in their efforts to correct the writing practices of their charges.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Ernst Bitterman

[proton007]

All the gripping techniques have their merits, but the nib's feedback also plays a role in how hard the pen is gripped. Nibs that glide will need just a light support, those that drag on the paper will need a firm grip.

[Mickey]

  On 11/14/2013 at 2:48 AM, proton007 said:

All the gripping techniques have their merits, but the nib's feedback also plays a role in how hard the pen is gripped. Nibs that glide will need just a light support, those that drag on the paper will need a firm grip.

Generally, the lighter the grip, the lighter the pressure on the nib and consequently lower less drag. You might be surprised how smooth a UEF feels when it isn't being strangled. Regardless, the best grip locks the pen in position without squeezing the section to the point where there is perceivable pressure.

Edited November 14, 2013 by Mickey

[Beckwith]

Part of the reason I find myself doing finger writing (in addition to speed) is a lack of space. When I try to do arm writing, I want to be able to rest the pad of my hand on a hard surface. Of course a hard surface is only available if I'm at a proper desk. When I'm taking notes in class I don't really have that space.

 

I've played around a bit with Lyander's suggestion of using the elbow as an anchor, and I've found that can help if there's somewhere to place my elbow.

 

 

  On 11/12/2013 at 4:23 AM, Lyander0012 said:

 

If whole arm writing really pains you, though, then might I suggest a compromise of sorts? It's what I do when I'm none too conscious of my writing technique: I use what I call half-arm writing (insert sheepish laughter here).

 

Basically, it's similar to whole arm writing save for the fact that I use my elbow as a focus point of sorts. The part of my arm that isn't my forearm (what's it called, again? ) stays relatively still, while my forearm moves about a lot. I make sure to keep my fingers and wrist steady, though, since that helps me work with more precision and comfort. As with all other bits of advice offered here, your mileage may vary

 

 

Any other suggestions for anchor-points?