How To Write Properly? Finger Writing Vs Whole Arm Writing?

[Lyander0012]

By the by, the Platinum Preppy is an excellent starter (semi?) disposable FP. I say "semi" because some people contrive to convert them into eyedropper-fillers and reuse them. Sailor also offers some really nice disposables, though I've heard less of them than of the Preppies. There's the Sheaffer VFM (though I don't think it really counts as a disposable) and the Pelikan Pelikano if you want to go for a western hemisphere nib. You're almost certain to have to do a bit of tweaking to make the most of the nib, though, since quality control is a bit spotty at best for this tier of fountain pens.

 

 

Cheers!

K

[bobjohnson201]

I write with both fountain pens and mechanical pencils on a regular basis, and only resort to ballpoint pens when no other option is available. As far as writing style goes, I write in cursive using whole-arm movement when possible. Yes, that even applies with pencils.

 

I admit that it takes quite a bit of practice to achieve the same level of precision with whole arm writing that finger writing offers, but it's hardly an impossible task. If whole arm writing really pains you, though, then might I suggest a compromise of sorts? It's what I do when I'm none too conscious of my writing technique: I use what I call half-arm writing (insert sheepish laughter here).

 

Basically, it's similar to whole arm writing save for the fact that I use my elbow as a focus point of sorts. The part of my arm that isn't my forearm (what's it called, again? ) stays relatively still, while my forearm moves about a lot. I make sure to keep my fingers and wrist steady, though, since that helps me work with more precision and comfort. As with all other bits of advice offered here, your mileage may vary

 

 

Cheers!

 

Kevin

Thank you! Can you or someone post a video showing this writing technique?

[bobjohnson201]

What technique do most people use today for everyday writing? Finger or arm writing?

[Lyander0012]

Haha, I don't recommend you bandy about this technique too much, by the way. As far as I'm concerned, it's a bit like cheating in terms of proper calligraphy, and might irritate some of the more stiff-collared members of this forum if it became standard. Also, that might put me on any number of blacklists, hahaha XD

Hmm, just think of it as whole arm writing, but with your elbow resting on the table.

[Lyander0012]

What technique do most people use today for everyday writing? Finger or arm writing?

 

The vast majority of people (esp. ballpoint pen users) use finger writing. Whole arm writing, which some might refer to as "proper writing" is still being taught in schools here in the Philippines, though its use isn't as strongly enforced as it might have been in previous-era America, which produced some of the finest engrossers and calligraphers in recent memory.

 

Not my memory, though; I'm only 20

 

But yeah, even when I was a kid back in the early 2000s, penmanship was already losing steam. I doubt that my old school still enforces the rules, actually. I'm not going back to find out )

 

 

Kevin

[Lone Coyote]

As one of the members said, you can never go wrong with a book, grab the one he suggested or the palmer one. Both are pretty much the same.

 

Cheers,

 

Lone Coyote

[bobjohnson201]

 

The vast majority of people (esp. ballpoint pen users) use finger writing. Whole arm writing, which some might refer to as "proper writing" is still being taught in schools here in the Philippines, though its use isn't as strongly enforced as it might have been in previous-era America, which produced some of the finest engrossers and calligraphers in recent memory.

 

Not my memory, though; I'm only 20

 

But yeah, even when I was a kid back in the early 2000s, penmanship was already losing steam. I doubt that my old school still enforces the rules, actually. I'm not going back to find out )

 

 

Kevin

So what it sounds like to me is that for everyday writing (quick, not very neat, just to get the job done) majority of the people do finger writing, but for calligraphy/penmanship (slower, neater) people use whole arm writing (which seems like an old technique based on the books)? It doesn't seem like many people do whole arm writing just for everyday writing (someone correct me if I'm wrong)?

[ac12]

Here is the post about the tripod grip.

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/201146-the-classic-tripod-grip/?hl=%2Btripod+%2Bgrip

[smk]

I think the term 'whole arm' bears some clarification.

 

The whole arm technique allows the arm to contribute some of the movements so the fingers don't have to do all of the work. The pad below the elbow usually rests on the desk, this still allows for ample movement for regular size writing. The writing ends up being a combination of the moving arm (supported by the pad of muscle below the elbow on the underside of the forearm) and fingers. This reduces the amount of work the fingers need to do and allows one to write for longer without fatigue.

 

bobjohnson201 - where exactly does your thumb hurt? If it is the first joint, it is most likely due to holding the pen/pencil too tightly.

 

I would like to suggest an alternate hold recommended by Getty & Dubay for people who cannot write comfortably with the tripod grip. You hold the pen between your forefinger and middle finger (rather than between the thumb and the forefinger) and hold the end with the tips of the thumb, forefinger and middle finger. This might feel a little awkward at first but you'll be surprised at how comfortable this is.

 

Here is the link to the instructions: Alternate Pen hold by Getty & Dubay

 

I hope this helps,

 

Salman

[bobjohnson201]

I think the term 'whole arm' bears some clarification.

 

The whole arm technique allows the arm to contribute some of the movements so the fingers don't have to do all of the work. The pad below the elbow usually rests on the desk, this still allows for ample movement for regular size writing. The writing ends up being a combination of the moving arm (supported by the pad of muscle below the elbow on the underside of the forearm) and fingers. This reduces the amount of work the fingers need to do and allows one to write for longer without fatigue.

 

bobjohnson201 - where exactly does your thumb hurt? If it is the first joint, it is most likely due to holding the pen/pencil too tightly.

 

I would like to suggest an alternate hold recommended by Getty & Dubay for people who cannot write comfortably with the tripod grip. You hold the pen between your forefinger and middle finger (rather than between the thumb and the forefinger) and hold the end with the tips of the thumb, forefinger and middle finger. This might feel a little awkward at first but you'll be surprised at how comfortable this is.

 

Here is the link to the instructions: Alternate Pen hold by Getty & Dubay

 

I hope this helps,

 

Salman

thank you, i have seen this method before but yeah it does feel quite weird. the end joint of the thumb (joint closest to nail) is what hurts for me - and yes i do have a tendency to grip the pencil extra tightly (especially in tense situations such as taking tests and what not). this tendency combined with the old way I used to write is what I believe started giving me problems

Edited November 12, 2013 by bobjohnson201

[Ernst Bitterman]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the grip you show at the top of the thread; it's one more finger than I use and than the classical or modern tripod grips urge, but it looks relaxed enough, so long as you in fact relax. That's where the "whole arm" thing really comes to the fore, since if your fingers aren't involved in making the letter-forms, you have a chance to notice if they're working too hard on simply keeping the pen attached to the hand. The best way I've come upon to train the arm to write is perform the act as if writing on a blackboard so the back of the class can read it-- unless you've got inhumanly large hands, fingers and wrist can't flap around enough to make letters that big. When you scale down the movements to normally-sized writing, it's just as fast as the finger-based writing-- especially if you use a fountain pen or fine-liner which isn't dependent on downward force to get the ink transferred to the paper.

[bobjohnson201]

There's nothing inherently wrong with the grip you show at the top of the thread; it's one more finger than I use and than the classical or modern tripod grips urge, but it looks relaxed enough, so long as you in fact relax. That's where the "whole arm" thing really comes to the fore, since if your fingers aren't involved in making the letter-forms, you have a chance to notice if they're working too hard on simply keeping the pen attached to the hand. The best way I've come upon to train the arm to write is perform the act as if writing on a blackboard so the back of the class can read it-- unless you've got inhumanly large hands, fingers and wrist can't flap around enough to make letters that big. When you scale down the movements to normally-sized writing, it's just as fast as the finger-based writing-- especially if you use a fountain pen or fine-liner which isn't dependent on downward force to get the ink transferred to the paper.

one more finger than the tripod grip would be this grip (quadropod grip) http://www.hwtears.com/files/grip(1).jpg where the pencil rests on the side of the ring finger. My picture might look like the pencil was resting on the side of my ring finger but its not (it was not resting on any finger, just pinched between the thumb index and middle fingers, with the ring and pinky not doing anything.) i did not know that whole arm writing can be as fast as finger writing, thank you for telling me this.

[Mickey]

thank you, i have seen this method before but yeah it does feel quite weird. the end joint of the thumb (joint closest to nail) is what hurts for me - and yes i do have a tendency to grip the pencil extra tightly (especially in tense situations such as taking tests and what not). this tendency combined with the old way I used to write is what I believe started giving me problems

I think the solution to the problem is to rethink or redefine what you believe is gripping the pen. It's not a chisel or engravers tool. It need not be pushed into the paper. Gravity will supply plenty of downward force, even for a ball point pen. A pen will also not skitter away under its own force. It will pretty much stay where you put it unless gravity says otherwise. So what is the purpose of the grip? It is simply to prop up the pen such that the business end faces the paper. That's it. The tripod grip simply locks the pen in place against horizontal forces, which, if you don't press down, will not be significant.

 

I'll be honest with you. My fingers don't press against the pen. They press against each other. The pen is simple caught in between. Lightly put the tips of your index finger, middle finger, and thumb together. Don't press. There's your grip. Now stuff a pen in between the digits and still don't press. The pen barrel will cross the web of the hand very close to (if not on) the first knuckle. That's it. Your hand is relaxed and the pen is locked in.

 

Here's another technique which might help. Find or cut a small ball of sponge or soft foam, between 3 and 4 cm in diameter. Place the ball in the palm of your hand and grasp in lightly with the last 3 finger. Now, grip the pen as described above. This is the (most) proper grip. All your fingers are where they should be. Allow the ball to remain in the hand, don't squeeze it. If you compress it, you will also over grip the pen.

 

Put the pen point on the paper and slide it around a bit. Don't try to write, just lightly scribble, maybe draw a few circles. Get used to the idea of the pen marking the page under it own pressure and being moved by your entire arm, which means that your shoulder, upper and lower arms, wrist, and fingers are all active and available for use, depending on the scale of the object you wish to draw or write. When this starts to make 'physical sense' to you, begin writing. When it doesn't, stop, reset, and begin fresh.

 

I hope this helps a little.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Mickey

[ac12]

So what it sounds like to me is that for everyday writing (quick, not very neat, just to get the job done) majority of the people do finger writing, but for calligraphy/penmanship (slower, neater) people use whole arm writing (which seems like an old technique based on the books)? It doesn't seem like many people do whole arm writing just for everyday writing (someone correct me if I'm wrong)?

 

I DO use the hand/arm movement daily.

It is only when I am pressured to write FAST does it deteriorate into a hybrid of hand/arm+finger movement. Or if I am cramped for space, then finger only (at least right now).

But with the grip that I am using now, it is harder to write with my fingers, as my grip is tuned for more hand/arm movement.

 

Using the arm gives me another benefit.

When I was a finger writer, I also ANCHORED my hand on to the paper. This limited both my vertical movement to what my fingers could do and horizontal movement to what my wrist and fingers could do. As a result I used to break up longer words into segments that I could easily write without lifting up my hand from the paper and moving my hand to the right and setting it down again. Example the word deteriorate might be done in 3 segments; det-erior-ate. With moving the arm, I am now able to do LONG words in a single flow, no segments. This actually makes parts of my writing faster, as I do not constantly stop to move my hand and segment words.

[bobjohnson201]

I think the solution to the problem is to rethink or redefine what you believe is gripping the pen. It's not a chisel or engravers tool. It need not be pushed into the paper. Gravity will supply plenty of downward force, even for a ball point pen. A pen will also not skitter away under its own force. It will pretty much stay where you put it unless gravity says otherwise. So what is the purpose of the grip? It is simply to prop up the pen such that the business end faces the paper. That's it. The tripod grip simply locks the pen in place against horizontal forces, which, if you don't press down, will not be significant.

 

I'll be honest with you. My fingers don't press against the pen. They press against each other. The pen is simple caught in between. Lightly put the tips of your index finger, middle finger, and thumb together. Don't press. There's your grip. Now stuff a pen in between the digits and still don't press. The pen barrel will cross the web of the hand very close to (if not on) the first knuckle. That's it. Your hand is relaxed and the pen is locked in.

 

Here's another technique which might help. Find or cut a small ball of sponge or soft foam, between 3 and 4 cm in diameter. Place the ball in the palm of your hand and grasp in lightly with the last 3 finger. Now, grip the pen as described above. This is the (most) proper grip. All your fingers are where they should be. Allow the ball to remain in the hand, don't squeeze it. If you compress it, you will also over grip the pen.

 

Put the pen point on the paper and slide it around a bit. Don't try to write, just lightly scribble, maybe draw a few circles. Get used to the idea of the pen marking the page under it own pressure and being moved by your entire arm, which means that your shoulder, upper and lower arms, wrist, and fingers are all active and available for use, depending on the scale of the object you wish to draw or write. When this starts to make 'physical sense' to you, begin writing. When it doesn't, stop, reset, and begin fresh.

 

I hope this helps a little.

thank you. When I write the pen seems to naturally come in this position (the pen rests on the middle of my index finger's knuckle - is it correct?

http://i40.tinypic.com/15mbh9u.jpg

 

some pictures look more like this where the pen is resting past the knuckle.

http://i41.tinypic.com/fkpdtf.jpg

 

does the higher writing angle matter? so majority of the movement comes from your arm while some minor movement might come from your fingers and wrist (correct me if i'm wrong)?

Edited November 12, 2013 by bobjohnson201

[Mickey]

thank you. so majority of the movement comes from your arm while some minor movement might come from your fingers and wrist (correct me if i'm wrong)?

That depends, on the size (and style) of what you are writing and who you ask. There are some excellent penmen (I mean truly excellent) whose fingers move not a whit except as an extension of the arm and other, equally talented penmen whose fingers are very active. There is room for variety.

 

The biggest fault, as I see it, is anchoring the side and or base of the hand to the desk and writing exclusively with wrist and fingers. If God and genetics blessed you with broad, wide open carpel tunnels, you'll probably do okay that way, but if not, welcome to the world of writer's cramp, RSI, and lousy handwriting.

[bobjohnson201]

That depends, on the size (and style) of what you are writing and who you ask. There are some excellent penmen (I mean truly excellent) whose fingers move not a whit except as an extension of the arm and other, equally talented penmen whose fingers are very active. There is room for variety.

 

The biggest fault, as I see it, is anchoring the side and or base of the hand to the desk and writing exclusively with wrist and fingers. If God and genetics blessed you with broad, wide open carpel tunnels, you'll probably do okay that way, but if not, welcome to the world of writer's cramp, RSI, and lousy handwriting.

I edited my post - can you check out the pictures above? I thought writing exclusively with wrist and fingers are what most people do nowadays, so im surprised to see not many people having issues with it

[Mickey]

I edited my post - can you check out the pictures above? I thought writing exclusively with wrist and fingers are what most people do nowadays, so im surprised to see not many people having issues with it

Just because most people do it doesn't mean it's right. Making that argument to a cop after he stops you for drifting through a 4 way stop is not going to get you anywhere. As to why few people take issue with it, "ignorance is bliss" right up to the point where you need to see an occupational therapist or hand surgeon.

 

The top photo looks better. The middle finger could still be turned under a bit more. It might be useful to think of the last three fingers as being a unit. As long as the middle finger is in a strong position (i.e., forward with the pad near the pen), there will be a tendency for the fingers to take over. (Turning the middle finger in is like weakening the right hand golf grip to make the hands more passive in the swing. You take away some of it's range of motion and reduce its leverage.)

 

Addendum: Make the okay signal with your thumb and forefinger. From the palm side, poke a pen back through the 'O' and bring the middle finger up to lock in the pen in place. The section should cross the middle finger on its side, between the nail bed and the knuckle.

Edited November 12, 2013 by Mickey

[bobjohnson201]

Just because most people do it doesn't mean it's right. Making that argument to a cop after he stops you for drifting through a 4 way stop is not going to get you anywhere. As to why few people take issue with it, "ignorance is bliss" right up to the point where you need to see an occupational therapist or hand surgeon.

 

The top photo looks better. The middle finger could still be turned under a bit more. It might be useful to think of the last three fingers as being a unit. As long as the middle finger is in a strong position (i.e., forward with the pad near the pen), there will be a tendency for the fingers to take over. (Turning the middle finger in is like weakening the right hand golf grip to make the hands more passive in the swing. You take away some of it's range of motion and reduce its leverage.)

 

Addendum: Make the okay signal with your thumb and forefinger. From the palm side, poke a pen back through the 'O' and bring the middle finger up to lock in the pen in place. The section should cross the middle finger on its side, between the nail bed and the knuckle.

Thank you. How's this?

http://i42.tinypic.com/10gidea.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2q2oncn.jpg

[Mickey]

It looks better, but having the forefinger and thumb touching is better. (Remember, it's the okay sign, not the backwards C sign.) With the thumb and forefinger touching, it's nearly impossible to squeeze the pen, which is the biggest part of the habit we're trying to help you break.