How To Write Properly? Finger Writing Vs Whole Arm Writing?

[bobjohnson201]

Hi everybody, I'm new here.

 

I was never taught proper writing and I was holding my pencil/pen like this (I have been writing like that my whole life - notice how the pencil is not supported/resting on any of my finger tips (the assembly is not resting on my ring or middle finger).

http://i42.tinypic.com/2iqn345.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/rjk495.jpg

 

 

After developing pain /soreness in my thumb, I had to change my grip. After looking around and doing some research on the net I found the tripod grip, so with much difficulty I changed it to this.

http://i40.tinypic.com/118hd1h.jpg

About three weeks later there was improvement but I was still having issues, so I started writing with ballpoint pens and tried lowering the writing angle to this.

http://i40.tinypic.com/rl9xjq.jpg

 

A few weeks later and I still cannot write for extended periods of time without pain. Reading more on here I am seeing that writing with ball points are designed for higher writing angles so maybe I am not holding it correctly? Also, I read some articles that say you are supposed to write with your whole arm as opposed to your fingers. I am definitely a finger writer. I was just wondering if this technique is only applied for calligraphy/fountain pen use or is it meant for everyday writing? I am a college student so I need to be able to write fast, and whole arm movement seems a lot slower than finger writing. Are you supposed to use your whole arm to write even with regular pens and pencils? If so, what is the fastest way I can learn? Is finger writing bad? Should I just switch back to a pencil and ditch the ballpoints? I really would appreciate some help here! Thanks...

Edited November 12, 2013 by bobjohnson201

[thedeacon]

Switch to a fountain pen!

 

 

Seriously, you'll get some good answers from others. Admittedly, I am by no means a writing/penmanship expert.

[bobjohnson201]

Switch to a fountain pen!

 

 

Seriously, you'll get some good answers from others. Admittedly, I am by no means a writing/penmanship expert.

I am considering it, but I do not want to have to switch between whole arm writing (fountain pen) and finger writing (pencil), that's why I want to know the answers to the questions I asked before I make my next move.

[Dr_P]

Switching to a fountain pen is not a bad piece of advise

 

Now seriously, I would say that if you are using a ball pen or a pencil you will have to exert more pressure to leave a mark on the paper compared with the pressure that you would have to do with a fountain pen with a good ink-flow. If you have to do more pressure, you will probably hold the ball-pen tighter which will cause fatigue in your fingers. (you see why switching to a FP is a goo idea:) )

 

Besides, writing, like any other physical activity, requires exercising your muscles. The more you write, and the more relaxed you are, the longer you will be able to do it without pain.

[bobjohnson201]

Switching to a fountain pen is not a bad piece of advise

 

Now seriously, I would say that if you are using a ball pen or a pencil you will have to exert more pressure to leave a mark on the paper compared with the pressure that you would have to do with a fountain pen with a good ink-flow. If you have to do more pressure, you will probably hold the ball-pen tighter which will cause fatigue in your fingers. (you see why switching to a FP is a goo idea:) )

 

Besides, writing, like any other physical activity, requires exercising your muscles. The more you write, and the more relaxed you are, the longer you will be able to do it without pain.

What about whole arm writing vs finger writing? what do you do? and do you use the same method for regular pens and pencils?

[brunico]

I do not want to have to switch between whole arm writing (fountain pen) and finger writing (pencil)

 

I don't write with pencils, biros, rollerballs, gel pens any differently from the way I write with fountain pens, so no switching is required if you have a good grip to begin with.

 

Don't get fixated on the tripod grip. There are variants. Personally, I tend to use four fingers to hold the pen - it's a kind of modified tripod grip - because when I was growing up, the old grip got uncomfortable and began to cramp my little finger as it trailed behind my ring finger. And that's the important thing. Be comfortable, be relaxed, don't hold on to the pen like grim death - a tripod grip is no improvement if you're tensing your fingers - and the writing will follow naturally. Remember you're guiding the pen, not stirring porridge.

 

The "whole arm" idea is a bit of a misnomer: it's really about distribution of effort. As with playing the piano, your fingers are only the final part of what makes the magic happen. Don't tense your shoulder, and let some of the movement come from the hand itself, moving about the fleshy pad at the bottom of your palm as an anchor point.

[bobjohnson201]

 

I don't write with pencils, biros, rollerballs, gel pens any differently from the way I write with fountain pens, so no switching is required if you have a good grip to begin with.

 

Don't get fixated on the tripod grip. There are variants. Personally, I tend to use four fingers to hold the pen - it's a kind of modified tripod grip - because when I was growing up, the old grip got uncomfortable and began to cramp my little finger as it trailed behind my ring finger. And that's the important thing. Be comfortable, be relaxed, don't hold on to the pen like grim death - a tripod grip is no improvement if you're tensing your fingers - and the writing will follow naturally. Remember you're guiding the pen, not stirring porridge.

 

The "whole arm" idea is a bit of a misnomer: it's really about distribution of effort. As with playing the piano, your fingers are only the final part of what makes the magic happen. Don't tense your shoulder, and let some of the movement come from the hand itself, moving about the fleshy pad at the bottom of your palm as an anchor point.

Thank you for your reply. I am not quite sure what you mean at the end - it almost sounds like you are suggesting writing with hand movement? Should my fingers be moving as I write or should they stay still? I am seeing different things. This article suggests writing with arm movement http://www.paperpenalia.com/handwriting.html, while this one suggests writing with finger movement http://rjblain.com/2013/05/on-writing-a-lesson-in-holding-a-pen-or-pencil/. What do you do?

[ac12]

A ball point has to be held more vertically than a fountain pen to work. Tilt it too much and the ball cannot be moved easily or at all.

 

I used a fountain pen all thru college to take notes. This is because I could not write with a ball pen as fast as I could with a fountain pen. And yes I was a finger writer. I also gripped the pen HARD. As a result, I could not write more than 30 min without starting to get a hand cramp, so by the end of a class, my hand usually HURT.

I also used narrow ruled paper, to get as much stuff on the page as I could, so I also wrote small. This small writing reinforced finger writing.

 

Today I use my hand and arms for a lot of the movements, and I also hold the pen MUCH lighter than I did in college. As a result I can write for a couple hours without developing any trace of a hand cramp.

• Moving the hand and arm also allows me to write much larger than I could before.
  I practice on WIDE ruled paper, so I have the paper space to let me move my hand/arm.
• I also use a Medium nib to practice with. Writing small with a M nib will result in messy writing, so the M nib forces me to write larger to fill the vertical space in the wide ruled paper.

• I also changed my grip.
  I first moved my 2 fingers+thumb back to 4cm back from the tip of the pen.
  Then I changed it again to keep the thumb at the 4cm position, but move my 2 fingers forward till they were comfortable, as in the following thread.

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/201146

This reduced my both my grip pressure on the pen and the pressure on the tip of the pen.

• Changing the grip and moving the hand/arm does take a lot of practice to retrain your muscles, until it becomes natural. This is called developing muscle memory. Things feel odd until your muscles get used to the change.
  I keep a daily journal and try to write at least 4 pages a day, to practice. Sometimes what I write is just rambling.
  Now I feel odd if I cannot use my hand and arm to write, and I do not like to hold the pen as close to the tip as I used to.

• Having just started practicing hand and arm movement a couple months ago, I found that moving the hand and arms slows down my handwriting, when compared to my finger writing days. I do not know if I can write FAST with hand/arm movement. I suppose if I have to write fast, I might revert to a variant of finger writing.

• Also I have difficulty writing with hand/arm movement if I do not have a desk surface to rest my arm/elbow on.
  So writing on the foldout writing surface of a college lecture hall chair would be difficult for me.

Having said all this, the root of my problem was that I was not taught, did not learn any form of shorthand or quick writing. So my note taking was in longhand, which was very inefficient and slow. As a result my handwriting got worse and worse as I sped up my writing to keep up with the professors mouth. I cannot read some of my college notes. So I also urge you to learn some form of quick writing/shorthand.

 

For times when you need to use a ball pen, I suggest that you switch over to a gel pen or roller-ball pen. They require much less pressure to write. That will reduce the difference in writing pressure between fountain pen and ball pen.

 

gud luk

[welch]

Move your hand as you write...not your fingers. My teachers taught me that, back when I was learning to write and we all had Sheaffer student pens (clear, more or less, cartridge fillers). I now roll my hand, having learned BAD HABITS from ballpoints. Do what I was taught...not what I do.

[bobjohnson201]

A ball point has to be held more vertically than a fountain pen to work. Tilt it too much and the ball cannot be moved easily or at all.

 

I used a fountain pen all thru college to take notes. This is because I could not write with a ball pen as fast as I could with a fountain pen. And yes I was a finger writer. I also gripped the pen HARD. As a result, I could not write more than 30 min without starting to get a hand cramp, so by the end of a class, my hand usually HURT.

I also used narrow ruled paper, to get as much stuff on the page as I could, so I also wrote small. This small writing reinforced finger writing.

 

Today I use my hand and arms for a lot of the movements, and I also hold the pen MUCH lighter than I did in college. As a result I can write for a couple hours without developing any trace of a hand cramp.

• Moving the hand and arm also allows me to write much larger than I could before.

  I practice on WIDE ruled paper, so I have the paper space to let me move my hand/arm.

• I also use a Medium nib to practice with. Writing small with a M nib will result in messy writing, so the M nib forces me to write larger to fill the vertical space in the wide ruled paper.

• I also changed my grip.

  I first moved my 2 fingers+thumb back to 4cm back from the tip of the pen.

  Then I changed it again to keep the thumb at the 4cm position, but move my 2 fingers forward till they were comfortable, as in the following thread.

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/201146

This reduced my both my grip pressure on the pen and the pressure on the tip of the pen.

• Changing the grip and moving the hand/arm does take a lot of practice to retrain your muscles, until it becomes natural. This is called developing muscle memory. Things feel odd until your muscles get used to the change.

  I keep a daily journal and try to write at least 4 pages a day, to practice. Sometimes what I write is just rambling.

  Now I feel odd if I cannot use my hand and arm to write, and I do not like to hold the pen as close to the tip as I used to.

• Having just started practicing hand and arm movement a couple months ago, I found that moving the hand and arms slows down my handwriting, when compared to my finger writing days. I do not know if I can write FAST with hand/arm movement. I suppose if I have to write fast, I might revert to a variant of finger writing.

• Also I have difficulty writing with hand/arm movement if I do not have a desk surface to rest my arm/elbow on.

  So writing on the foldout writing surface of a college lecture hall chair would be difficult for me.

Having said all this, the root of my problem was that I was not taught, did not learn any form of shorthand or quick writing. So my note taking was in longhand, which was very inefficient and slow. As a result my handwriting got worse and worse as I sped up my writing to keep up with the professors mouth. I cannot read some of my college notes. So I also urge you to learn some form of quick writing/shorthand.

 

For times when you need to use a ball pen, I suggest that you switch over to a gel pen or roller-ball pen. They require much less pressure to write. That will reduce the difference in writing pressure between fountain pen and ball pen.

 

gud luk

thank you for your reply! can you re-link the thread you were talking about for writing position (it just takes me to the home page)? there will not be times I need to use a ball pen, but I will need to use a pencil for tests and some assignments. I look forward to more responses

[Paddler]

In general, the more muscles you use to perform a task, the less fatigue you will experience. I write with fountain pens by using fingers and wrist. There is a very small amount of forearm involved, also. I grip the pen with the smallest amount of finger pressure needed to maintain control. I can write this way for hours without fatigue. Writing with a ballpoint pen will give me hand cramps in a few minutes.

[brunico]

Should my fingers be moving as I write or should they stay still? [...] This article suggests writing with arm movement http://www.paperpenalia.com/handwriting.html

 

Hi! I write more or less as in the paperpenalia link.

 

My fingers are mostly still: my whole hand is tracing letters most of the time, but I can see my fingers 'pull' down on descenders, probably because I can't do a combination like gh with my hand alone without moving something. What I don't do is trace the letter c, for example, by moving my fingers to the left, then down, then right again. My hand does that entire letter by itself (my fingers remain still, and I move my hand about the cushion/heel of my palm). I seem to have developed a way of writing largely with my hand while using my fingers to extend my vertical 'reach' particularly on descenders, but not on every descender. I do it intuitively, so it's hard to describe.

 

And from writing a few sentences just now, I can see I used my fingers to pull down on the descender of the g but use my hand to complete the tail of the g, rather than using the fingers to move left. I imagine other people balance hand and fingers in completely different ways, in ways that feel natural to them - as I imagine most people stir with a teaspoon. If there is a right method, I'm possibly not doing it, but I don't think I'm far wrong, because my writing's quick and legible and my muscles don't fatigue.

 

All I can offer is my own observations. My entire knowledge of the mechanics of writing comes from trying to work out what people on FPN were on about when they were talking about writing with the arm, and then looking to see how I wrote myself, which I'd never bothered to do before.

 

I write with italic nibs. The edge of an italic nib has to be flat against the paper, and the pen should be in pretty much the same position (relative to the paper) all the time (no yawing). This means keeping the fingers relatively still. If you start drawing letters with your fingers when using an italic nib - especially with a sharper, broader nib - you'll soon come unstuck. I'm wondering whether this would help: an italic felt marker (like the 2mm Edding 1255 calligraphy pen) should only be a couple of dollars from an art store, or you could even tape two pencils together! It will be nigh on impossible to keep both pencil points in continuous contact with the paper if you're writing with your fingers.

[bobjohnson201]

Move your hand as you write...not your fingers. My teachers taught me that, back when I was learning to write and we all had Sheaffer student pens (clear, more or less, cartridge fillers). I now roll my hand, having learned BAD HABITS from ballpoints. Do what I was taught...not what I do.

what do you mean by roll your hand? I heard the hand tires more quickly...? This articles says figuratively that the pen, fingers, hand and forearm are a solid bar of iron (with motion coming from the elbow and shoulder). Writing like that feels so weird and seems very slow

Edited November 12, 2013 by bobjohnson201

[bobjohnson201]

 

Hi! I write more or less as in the paperpenalia link.

 

My fingers are mostly still: my whole hand is tracing letters most of the time, but I can see my fingers 'pull' down on descenders, probably because I can't do a combination like gh with my hand alone without moving something. What I don't do is trace the letter c, for example, by moving my fingers to the left, then down, then right again. My hand does that entire letter by itself (my fingers remain still, and I move my hand about the cushion/heel of my palm). I seem to have developed a way of writing largely with my hand while using my fingers to extend my vertical 'reach' particularly on descenders, but not on every descender. I do it intuitively, so it's hard to describe.

 

And from writing a few sentences just now, I can see I used my fingers to pull down on the descender of the g but use my hand to complete the tail of the g, rather than using the fingers to move left. I imagine other people balance hand and fingers in completely different ways, in ways that feel natural to them - as I imagine most people stir with a teaspoon. If there is a right method, I'm possibly not doing it, but I don't think I'm far wrong, because my writing's quick and legible and my muscles don't fatigue.

 

All I can offer is my own observations. My entire knowledge of the mechanics of writing comes from trying to work out what people on FPN were on about when they were talking about writing with the arm, and then looking to see how I wrote myself, which I'd never bothered to do before.

 

I write with italic nibs. The edge of an italic nib has to be flat against the paper, and the pen should be in pretty much the same position (relative to the paper) all the time (no yawing). This means keeping the fingers relatively still. If you start drawing letters with your fingers when using an italic nib - especially with a sharper, broader nib - you'll soon come unstuck. I'm wondering whether this would help: an italic felt marker (like the 2mm Edding 1255 calligraphy pen) should only be a couple of dollars from an art store, or you could even tape two pencils together! It will be nigh on impossible to keep both pencil points in continuous contact with the paper if you're writing with your fingers.

I appreciate your response. What are your thoughts on some of those disposable fountain pens?

[two2tone]

This 110 year old book is still timely.

 

http://www.iampeth.com/books/mills_modern_business_penmanship/Mills_Modern_Business_Penmanship_index.php

[brunico]

What are your thoughts on some of those disposable fountain pens?

 

Have never used them, though I hear they can be very good. And an inexpensive way to try fountain pens out.

[proton007]

^^ The iampeth book can help.

 

Bob,

What you need to realize is that every language has a general flow, or movement. For all languages relying on Latin script, its a chain of circular movements in the anti-clockwise direction from the left of the page to the right, 95% of the time. For other languages, they can be clockwise left to right, or right to left.

You'll find this is one of the preliminary exercise in any penmanship book.

 

These movements are best done with the use of the arm, in this case it doesn't matter how you hold the pen. The arm helps with the broader movements, the fingers just add the precision.

Edited November 12, 2013 by proton007

[Dan308]

From the research that I have done in the past, the arm movements I have found, tend to be more a manifestation of the Spencerian Script style (North American traditional) of writing and it's associated recommendations for posture and muscle control.

 

The answer to the question you pose; "finger or arm movements?" I think should be more a product of what you intend to do. I am assuming that your increased cramping is of course directly related to an increase in the amount you are writing. If this is not the case, your cramping could be related to something completely different or biological...arthritis, carpel tunnel syndrome etc.

If you are in fact writing more frequently and longer why: For pleasure? For work / study?

If you are writing more often for work or study, my recommendation is to not try to completely re-invent your writing style just in an effort to "get the job done." You can make huge improvements by following some of the very sound suggestions already offered above. Even in this case however, learning and forcing yourself to use the tripod grip is almost a MUST. The way you are currently holding your pen—as you mention—provides no support from the bottom, demanding a much tighter grip that will likely always lead to earlier fatigue.

 

If you are looking to improve your writing, for the sake of the enjoyment (and multitudes of other benefits of spending time with your favourite fountain pens!) then I really suggest you start with the tripod grip, download a few Spencerian Script study guides (available for free in many places) from the days of yore, and begin practicing proper posture and writing with your arm, not your fingers. Once you have some decent letterform happening, combine this style with your own, and let things land where they land. OH, but this, in my opinion demands a fountain—with a nice wet line—as mentioned earlier. Hold it no tighter than you absolutely have to, and relax.

 

Best of luck!

Edited November 12, 2013 by Dan308

[bobjohnson201]

From the research that I have done in the past, the arm movements I have found, tend to be more a manifestation of the Spencerian Script style (North American traditional) of writing and it's associated recommendations for posture and muscle control.

 

The answer to the question you pose; "finger or arm movements?" I think should be more a product of what you intend to do. I am assuming that your increased cramping is of course directly related to an increase in the amount you are writing. If this is not the case, your cramping could be related to something completely different or biological...arthritis, carpel tunnel syndrome etc.

If you are in fact writing more frequently and longer why: For pleasure? For work / study?

If you are writing more often for work or study, my recommendation is to not try to completely re-invent your writing style just in an effort to "get the job done." You can make huge improvements by following some of the very sound suggestions already offered above. Even in this case however, learning and forcing yourself to use the tripod grip is almost a MUST. The way you are currently holding your pen—as you mention—provides no support from the bottom, demanding a much tighter grip that will likely always lead to earlier fatigue.

 

If you are looking to improve your writing, for the sake of the enjoyment (and multitudes of other benefits of spending time with your favourite fountain pens!) then I really suggest you start with the tripod grip, download a few Spencerian Script study guides (available for free in many places) from the days of yore, and begin practicing proper posture and writing with your arm, not your fingers. Once you have some decent letterform happening, combine this style with your own, and let things land where they land. OH, but this, in my opinion demands a fountain—with a nice wet line—as mentioned earlier. Hold it no tighter than you absolutely have to, and relax.

 

Best of luck!

Yes, the cramping is related to the increased amounts I am writing. I am writing for work/study not for pleasure. I already changed to the tripod grip (see pictures above) but am still having issues when writing for extended periods of time - and am assuming its because I'm using my fingers to write not my arm? or holding the ballpoint too low (see pictures above)?

Edited November 12, 2013 by bobjohnson201

[Lyander0012]

I write with both fountain pens and mechanical pencils on a regular basis, and only resort to ballpoint pens when no other option is available. As far as writing style goes, I write in cursive using whole-arm movement when possible. Yes, that even applies with pencils.

 

I admit that it takes quite a bit of practice to achieve the same level of precision with whole arm writing that finger writing offers, but it's hardly an impossible task. If whole arm writing really pains you, though, then might I suggest a compromise of sorts? It's what I do when I'm none too conscious of my writing technique: I use what I call half-arm writing (insert sheepish laughter here).

 

Basically, it's similar to whole arm writing save for the fact that I use my elbow as a focus point of sorts. The part of my arm that isn't my forearm (what's it called, again? ) stays relatively still, while my forearm moves about a lot. I make sure to keep my fingers and wrist steady, though, since that helps me work with more precision and comfort. As with all other bits of advice offered here, your mileage may vary

 

 

Cheers!

 

Kevin