Arm On Desk?

[Zeboim]

Hi there guys,
I'm a bit shy about asking this simple question, I hope it won't take too long for you to answer. I'm going through Eager's book with my new Safari, and I'm trying to cure the habit of writing with my wrist and fingers only. Now I've read the posts about writing with the arm etc., and the advice seemed to be

"There are 3 points of contact between the writer and the desk (in ascending order of pressure): the nib, the last two fingernails of the writing hand, and the pad of forearm muscle near the elbow... you do not lean on your forearm. There should only be enough pressure to help stabilize the arm and confine forearm movement to a plane parallel to the desk." - Mickey

Now I've tried, but when I'm writing from my shoulder, my whole arm is off the table - in fact I'm writing right down to its edge. If I shunt in real close, and lower my chair until my forearms are on the table, the weight of the arm just seems to make writing from the shoulder difficult. Am I missing something here?

 

[beak]

Saving the quote from Mickey, which is spot on IMO, two things occur:

 

1 Chair and desk height; experiment with cushions and so on until the desk is at just the correct height for you.

 

2 This is all a bit difficult at first; you will be asking things of muscles that they will object to - some little training and practise is needed before the arm will be strong enough to begin floating somewhat from the desk, and as Mickey said, rather than hover freely in the air, it's more about reducing the support required from the desk, reaching a point where it does not rest heavily on the surface at all, but simply uses the writing surface as a reference contact - so that you have physical feedback as to the position of your hand and fingers relative to the writing - as do those trailing fingers that Mickey spoke of.

 

Let us know how you get on - this is a common theme and it won't hurt for us to cover the ground again with a new person and share their experience. Good luck.

Edited November 9, 2013 by beak

[Mickey]

There is some disagreement on this, but the conventional wisdom is that for anything other than flourishing, elaborate majuscules, and such, the pad of muscle near the elbow rests lightly on the desk. (Some teacher specify that elbow itself should be past the edge of the desk. This determines your seat position.) If the pressure is light enough, there should be enough movement possible within your skin to write all but the largest handwriting. In effect, the muscle, fat, and skin of your writing arm acts as a flexure bearing, least damped at right angles to the writing line and most damped (and limited) parallel to the writing line. Every few characters, slide the paper, not the arm.

 

Some teachers have recommended long-sleeve shirts or jackets (but with short sleeved shirt) to much the same effect. For handwriting, not flourishing, some support and guidance for the arm is desirable. Check out this source. http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/ornamental_penmanship/FB_Courtney/dashy_writing_index.html There haven't been too many penmen much better than F. B. Courtney.

 

Here's another thought for you. Don't think about writing from the shoulder. Instead, think of the pen point or perhaps your forefinger pulling your arm. Give control back to your fingers, just don't let them do any of the work. (imagine a winking smiley)

Edited November 9, 2013 by Mickey

[Nanny]

Yours is not a simple question! If you are using Fred Eager's book, you are writing italic. It is principally the forefinger that manipulates the pen. Muscular movement is in the fingers and some in the wrist. The ulnar side of the hand ( the part nearest the little finger) rides along the desk as you write. There is no shoulder movement for italic, as the hand rests on the paper, it moves along with a very slight lift between some letters.

 

Many on this list follow IAMPETH and the copperplate hands or their derivatives. You may know the Palmer method that is also a copperplate derivative, just simplified for business use. For these hands, shoulder movement is used with with the hand in a more or less stationery position. This allows the pen to flow though many joins within letters.

 

Palmer was an improvement for legibility and speed.

 

Italic is a further improvement for legibility and speed. Most here will know its Renaissance history, and perhaps know the hand has been used throughout the western world for 600 years. See a quick review of italic history:

 

Just a tip regarding the x height in Fred Eager's book: it is a bit short and cramps the counters. Sheila Waters, the reknowned calligrapher assisted Mr. Eager in writing his book, and agrees.

 

[Mickey]

Yours is not a simple question! If you are using Fred Eager's book, you are writing italic. It is principally the forefinger that manipulates the pen.

 

No, the question is not simple, but neither is your answer particularly well informed. Yes, the Eager book is a study of italic, - I am quite aware of that, having used the book over 30 years ago -, but the movement of the pen is definitely not primarily the domain of the index finger. As has been discussed ad nauseam in this forum, nearly all writing in the Western tradition is a blended movement, whether of italic, copperplate, or Spencerian derivative. Scale dictate which parts and how much of the arm are active. To advise otherwise is to misinform and invite RSI.

 

Added: BTW, I doubt many other people would argue that italic is faster than Palmer. I write both hands and mono-line Spencer (business writing in the Ames style), and cursive italic is the slowest of the three, if admittedly only by a small margin. It is no more legible than the other two hands executed competently.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Mickey

[Zeboim]

5

Thanks, beak, Mickey and Nanny, I've learnt a few things here that helped me, especially from studying the position of F. B. Courtney, , and hopefully will help someone else:

Your desk needs to be lower than your elbows at rest, or else your neck and shoulder muscles will tighten up.

Leaning forward is OK! It allows your elbows to move out to the side and to stick out just off the edge of the desk. I find it more comfortable to keep spine straight while tilted forward, and look down my nose at the paper rather than craning my neck.

Elbows and feet should be wide apart and symmetrical so as not to put the load on one side of the body.

Thanks again - I'll keep trying!

[Ed333]

On a related note, I have found (to my chagrin) that my beautiful custom mahogany stand-up desk, with slanted leather covered top, while very well suited to reviewing documents and making occasional marginal notes, is NOT well suited to my rediscovered flowing penmanship with fountain pen. In fact, it is downright uncomfortable, and results in smallish cramped script which reflects my discomfort. I made a big effort to negotiate taking the desk with me when I retired (after all, it was custom-made for my 6'3" frame, and would not fit anyone else!), and is located in a perfect protected niche for correspondence, with interior storage of inks and papers and pens, but no...it is not to be. I tire very quickly when trying to write on it.

[Zeboim]

Here's something else. I'm also teaching myself to keep the italic nib at 45 degrees to the paper. Drawing crosses from one side of the page to the other, however, I find that on the left, my horizontal stroke is too thick, while on the right the downstroke is too thick. I think it has something to do with the angle of the elbow, going from shallow to steep, left to right. Any tips on how to keep it consistent?

6

[Randal6393]

Here's something else. I'm also teaching myself to keep the italic nib at 45 degrees to the paper. Drawing crosses from one side of the page to the other, however, I find that on the left, my horizontal stroke is too thick, while on the right the downstroke is too thick. I think it has something to do with the angle of the elbow, going from shallow to steep, left to right. Any tips on how to keep it consistent?

6

Lloyd Reynolds, among other penmen, recommends moving the paper rather than your arm to keep the writing spot at the same position in front of you. Thus, a consistent cross because a consistent angle of your elbow.

 

Best of luck,

[Mickey]

Lloyd Reynolds, among other penmen, recommends moving the paper rather than your arm to keep the writing spot at the same position in front of you. Thus, a consistent cross because a consistent angle of your elbow.

 

Best of luck,

+1 This also maintains optical alignment. Spencerian penmen move the page every few characters. Such alignment is less critical for italic, but moving the page periodically (both horizontally and vertically) is definitely worthwhile.

[HDoug]

This is the sort of question that will get you many words in response. While trying to remain nonpartisan on this issue, I just report that in my practice only the nib and wrist near the pinky actually touch the paper. If I have a proper table/desk available, then just the forearm and nib. In any case, my fingernails do not usually touch the paper.

Of course, not saying that my way of doing things ought to be emulated, but I don't think it's very mysterious. But to substitute some pictures to contemplate (perhaps even distract) in lieu of thousands of words, some paintings from two eras of quill/pen for your enjoyment:

 

Pen holds in paintings part 1

 

Pen holds in paintings part 2

 

Doug

[HDoug]

Yours is not a simple question! If you are using Fred Eager's book, you are writing italic. It is principally the forefinger that manipulates the pen. Muscular movement is in the fingers and some in the wrist. The ulnar side of the hand ( the part nearest the little finger) rides along the desk as you write. There is no shoulder movement for italic, as the hand rests on the paper, it moves along with a very slight lift between some letters.

 

No, the question is not simple, but neither is your answer particularly well informed. Yes, the Eager book is a study of italic, - I am quite aware of that, having used the book over 30 years ago -, but the movement of the pen is definitely not primarily the domain of the index finger. As has been discussed ad nauseam in this forum, nearly all writing in the Western tradition is a blended movement, whether of italic, copperplate, or Spencerian derivative. Scale dictate which parts and how much of the arm are active. To advise otherwise is to misinform and invite RSI.

Mickey, the issue of arm/shoulder vs finger/wrist motion to write may have been discussed ad nauseum but hasn't been settled, particularly for italic. Many write well without using arm and shoulder motion or participation, and use the forefinger and wrist motions that Nanny describes and without any Repetitive Stress Injury.

 

I want to encourage everyone to contribute tips and what they know from experience and study, but hold off on condemnation and accusation. Telling Nanny that to advise others of a method other than the one you use is "to misinform and invite RSI" is over the top.

 

Doug

[Mickey]

 

Mickey, the issue of arm/shoulder vs finger/wrist motion to write may have been discussed ad nauseum but hasn't been settled, particularly for italic. Many write well without using arm and shoulder motion or participation, and use the forefinger and wrist motions that Nanny describes and without any Repetitive Stress Injury.

 

I want to encourage everyone to contribute tips and what they know from experience and study, but hold off on condemnation and accusation. Telling Nanny that to advise others of a method other than the one you use is "to misinform and invite RSI" is over the top.

 

Doug

Hardly over the top and no accusation or condemnation, except as regards the method. Contracting RSI from the approach being espoused is not a certainty, but it is a distinct risk. So why invite trouble? The method Nanny's pushing in her videos requires repetitive flexation of the wrist while supporting the writing arm on the side of the hand. This strikes me as a fine way to create problems.

 

I would point out that Lloyd Reynolds, grand old champion of italic, encouraged use of the entire arm. Ken Fraser, our resident guru, is likewise a champion of blended movement. I could continue the list ad nauseam. As a matter of fact, I can't think of reputable teacher of handwriting who believes planting the heal or side of the one's hand on the desk is a particularly good idea, unless it is the non-writing hand, nor can I find a credible champion for a fingers only approach. I'm ready to hear all arguments in either method's favor.

 

I also did not say it was my way or the highway, only that I believed the approach being espoused was risky and I made clear what I thought the risk was.

 

During the past couple of years the principle discussions regarding basic method have included:

 

1) Does the preferred method, whatever one chooses to call it, include only the big muscles or a blending of various muscle groups (the general consensus has been the latter)

 

2) Is the entire arm held free of the table (undetermined)

 

3) Is the wrist allowed to provide support (undetermined)

 

4) Does some part of the forearm provide support (undetermined, but likely)

 

5) What part of the last three digits brush the desk, if they do so at all

 

This was most of it. I suppose no clear consensus can be drawn from these discussions, except perhaps what was not deemed worth seriously considering.

 

Now I have a question. If we are not allowed to criticize serious 'tips and suggestion' we consider questionable, counter-productive, or even potentially injurious, what are we to do? Complain to the monitors? That seem to me an unfair imposition on them.

[HDoug]

It ain't all that complex. Treat this forum as a grand salon of experts, professionals, amateurs, and dilettante alike. Thrill and challenge us with your expertise; ask us difficult (or easy) questions.

 

But my main request: Be polite. Save insults and condemnation for other venues. If you cannot comply with this request, please do not post here.

 

This is directed to all and comes from me with my moderator hat on.

 

Me ka haʻahaʻa (humbly offered),

Doug

[Zeboim]

6Thanks for the advice about moving the paper - moving it across 2-3 times per line really makes a difference. I've found it is related to the angle of the elbow. When the elbow angle is correct, then the pen will tend to be at the right angle (pun not intended) to the paper. Focusing on your position is much easier and more effective than trying to adjust with each stroke. Relaxation is also important: I tend to bunch my fourth and fifth fingers together, which makes me pinch with my thumb and forefinger and makes my lines wobbly.

 

A note to Safari users: don't try and change the vertical angle of the pen to the paper. Unless your hand is unnaturally hooked, if you have your fingers placed in the grip indents, then the pen will always sit just below the knuckle of your first finger.

[thang1thang2]

@Zeboim, that's one of the reason's I was hesitant to buy the Safari. I like to be in charge of my own pen grip.

 

Plus, does the safari encourage an older style of pen grip like the one Mickey is talking about or does it want a more modern type of pengrip? Some molded handles go one way or the other and some allow both so I'm just curious.

 

Edited November 13, 2013 by thang1thang2

[Mickey]

@Zeboim, that's one of the reason's I was hesitant to buy the Safari. I like to be in charge of my own pen grip.

 

Plus, does the safari encourage an older style of pen grip like the one Mickey is talking about or does it want a more modern type of pengrip? Some molded handles go one way or the other and some allow both so I'm just curious.

 

Let me answer. The Safari grip encourages a plain, vanilla, tripod grip for most people. For outliers, such as myself (I'm big, with big hands) it is a bit too 'editorial' or dictatorial. I do have a couple of (custom) oblique holders with grip areas that are roughly triangular. The triangles are not equilateral or, in one case, even very close to equilateral. The top flat spot (the fore finger spot) is relatively narrow, the angle opposite being closer to 40 degrees than 60.

 

Regarding old-fangled vs new-fangled: The issue from my point of view is mostly one of wrist rotation, not grip, per se. The old fashioned grip has the back of the hand (the top knuckle-line really) nearly parallel to the desk and the new fashioned has the hand rotated about 45 degrees clockwise. I'm most comfortable somewhere in between. One old writing aid was a cardboard wafer for the student to balance on the back of the hand while practicing, kind of like walking with a book balanced on one's head. I suspect this might have some effect on the ability or approach to make shaded strokes.

[HDoug]

Hardly over the top and no accusation or condemnation, except as regards the method.

 

Thatʻs what Iʻm talking about, your accusation/condemnation "as regards the method" is over the top.

 

Ken Fraser, our resident guru, is likewise a champion of blended movement.

Let our resident guru speak for himself as he so eloquently does. Or quote him with enough context that we can understand his point.

 

As a matter of fact, I can't think of reputable teacher of handwriting who believes planting the heal or side of the one's hand on the desk is a particularly good idea, unless it is the non-writing hand, nor can I find a credible champion for a fingers only approach. I'm ready to hear all arguments in either method's favor.

Nanny is a reputable teacher of handwriting. Your readiness to hear all arguments must extend to her.

 

Now I have a question. If we are not allowed to criticize serious 'tips and suggestion' we consider questionable, counter-productive, or even potentially injurious, what are we to do? Complain to the monitors? That seem to me an unfair imposition on them.

 

No donʻt take it to the "monitors," thatʻs not what weʻre here for. To answer your question, my response is that if you respond you must do so politely. If this is beyond your ability, you must not respond at all.

 

Further discussion about this should be privately between us if you wish. I just want to make clear what my position is, and what I expect from all members of this forum.

 

We need to make sure that this forum more resembles a salon than saloon.

 

Doug

[Columba Livia]

Thatʻs what Iʻm talking about, your accusation/condemnation "as regards the method" is over the top.

Nanny/Nan Jay Barchowsky is a handwriting professional with a published book and so forth, so when someone puts themselves out there as a professional, makes and puts up videos on youtube &c. they're opening themselves up for discussion about their methods &c.

 

I honestly cannot see what was so offensive about discussing the issues raised by Nanny's post/ video/method, since she is inviting discussion about it by sharing it. I'd expect high standards from a professional in a particular field, so things like RSI which can be a real issue with handwriting are very worthy topics to discuss.

 

 

Nanny is a reputable teacher of handwriting. Your readiness to hear all arguments must extend to her.

 

Why don't you let her respond or not, if she so wishes, then?

[HDoug]

I'm not preventing her from responding. On the contrary, I'm trying to establish an environment where one can respond without subjecting themselves to abuse.

Doug