Cards On The Table: Nibmeisters Are Far From Infallible.

[lurcho]

I possess a M800 medium from John Mottishaw. It's the best writer I've ever had by a hell of a long chalk. (Despite my boring goings-on about the greatness of the humble Safari elsewhere on this board).

 

Richard Binder fixed a M250 nib for me, and it's just great. (Though I tweaked it years later, ever so slightly, for increased flow, because my taste changed.)

 

But I've had some very, very mediocre experiences with so-called masters of this particular dark art.

 

I refuse to name names.

 

But I bet you have too.

 

Pens that were bought with the expectation of greatness, but the experience of rubbishness, frankly.

 

Nibs sent for improvement that came back just the same.

 

Like me, don't name and shame, but do own up: They're not infallible, are they? (Who is? But that's the whole point of a nibmeister: to be meister.)

 

[jar]

My experience is that the customer often really doesn't want what he asks to be done.

[OcalaFlGuy]

I'd suggest that most of the "mess ups" aren't the "fault" of either the customer or nibmeister. They're the fault of "the process".

 

IMO, doing custom nib work by mail order is a risky proposition at least so far as getting exactly what you want on the first try. Nib work is both exact and at the same time very subjective, not the easiest combination to accomplish when both parties are separated by distance.

 

I have near a 100% first try success rates with nibmeisters.

 

That's because I am sitting across from the at a pen show, with the nib, while it's being worked on. I know what I want and by being there, I've eliminated most all chance for Mis-communication.

 

The problem with any other way, is the increase in difficulty of clearly communicating one's desire for the nib And from the professional, what He understands that to be.

 

I think often, the biggest root of the problem is the customer either not knowing exactly what they want or not being able to clearly COMMUNICATE that to the technician.

 

You pay them for nib work. You Don't pay them to be mind readers.

 

The more specifics you know about what you want and the more clearly you communicate those, the better the chance you'll get what you want on the first try.

 

[EDIT] There are ways to work around distance. You have the technology. Even several years ago, I knew a Britt FPNer who videoed himself writing with the pen to be worked on and emailed that vid to Mike Masuyama in Atlanta. A year later, Mike used that same vid, now on his cellphone, to grind another nib for the same customer in the UK, to hand to Me in Atlanta.

 

Bruce in Ocala, Fl

Edited October 24, 2013 by OcalaFlGuy

[I like mango cheesecake]

I agree that sending off to the nibmeister is all about communication and that is spotty at best. He doesn't know exactly how you write, how much pressure you use, what slant you use, how high up the barrel you write with, if you are a lefty or a righty, plus a whole lot of other things.

 

I saw a Japanese video of a Japanese grand master nib meister (linked on here) and he asked all these questions first of the customer and observed the customer write with their pen first.

 

THis is how it should be done.

 

Having said that. I'd rather mod my own nibs than send it out if I could. I can control the entire process, fine tuning it right down to my exact writing specifications.

[BrandonA]

I disagree with communication being a fault. If you end up getting something you did not want this is either because you didn't explain your requirements properly or the nibmeister misinterpreted your requirements. When I had a nib changed the process involved a lengthy email conversation during which all the options were explained and I asked lots of questions. The work only proceeded once both parties were happy.

 

Sometimes a pen is sent for repair when it is beyond repair.

 

Mistakes do happen. Can anyone on this forum claim that they've never made a mistake at work?

[migo984]

,

I think often, the biggest root of the problem is the customer either not knowing exactly what they want or not being able to clearly COMMUNICATE that to the technician.

 

You pay them for nib work. You Don't pay them to be mind readers.

 

 

 

Hmmm - I only agree with that to a certain extent. Communicationis a two-way process and part of the skill of any expert is to know what and how to ask the questions that will get her/him the information they need to do their job. To some extent they do have to be mind readers and the customer is paying for the meister's experience as much as his skills. There should be no expectation that a customer will have the degree of knowledge that enables them to explain what they want. That is a skill there that a good expert will have developed

 

As an example, a good surgeon/consultant will ask the right questions in such a way as to enable their patient to explain and communicate their problem, thereby providing the consultant with the right info to make informed decisions and to do their job better. I know; when I was very ill I experienced very bad and very good communicators, and the difference it makes when an expert (ie consultant) is easy to talk to, is clear and asks the right prompts and questiosn is remarkable.

 

I know this analogy has flaws but you get my point. Bad communication can be just as much the fault of the expert.

 

Marie

[rochester21]

I tend to believe that it`s indeed the customer who often expects more from the nibmeister than it`s actually possible. People read about other people`s "dream pens" and want the same thing, but often don`t exactly know what to expect. Again, this is just my intuition, backed-up by some real life observations on the matter.

 

But it`s also only logical to assume that not all people who repair pens, nibs have the same degree of skill. Sending your pens out to a stranger to fix them for you is always a gamble. Sometimes it actually pays off to do your own nib work- that way, the only person you can blame or congratulate is yourself

Edited October 24, 2013 by rochester21

[JonSzanto]

So, what is the point of the topic, precisely? That people are human, or is it something that we didn't already know?

[proton007]

Its the same thing with all tasks done by hand. They're never objective.

 

Everytime we buy a pen, even if it has a writing sample, its hard to say the pen will perform the same in our hands.

 

Hence, I'd say even a 75% success rate in customizing a nib to someone's preference is pretty good.

[Wheatflower]

So, what is the point of the topic, precisely? That people are human, or is it something that we didn't already know?

 

I'm pleased to see I am not the only person unsure on this point.

[mrchan]

 

Hmmm - I only agree with that to a certain extent. Communicationis a two-way process and part of the skill of any expert is to know what and how to ask the questions that will get her/him the information they need to do their job. To some extent they do have to be mind readers and the customer is paying for the meister's experience as much as his skills. There should be no expectation that a customer will have the degree of knowledge that enables them to explain what they want. That is a skill there that a good expert will have developed

 

As an example, a good surgeon/consultant will ask the right questions in such a way as to enable their patient to explain and communicate their problem, thereby providing the consultant with the right info to make informed decisions and to do their job better. I know; when I was very ill I experienced very bad and very good communicators, and the difference it makes when an expert (ie consultant) is easy to talk to, is clear and asks the right prompts and questiosn is remarkable.

 

I know this analogy has flaws but you get my point. Bad communication can be just as much the fault of the expert.

 

Marie

I'd have to agree with this. Sometimes the customer might not know what specific requests to make, not every customer is an expert at knowing what they want, there is always a first time for everything. Communication is of course a two way thing. Like a doctor asking a patient about their symptoms, the patient don't always know the right symptoms to offer up. The nibmeister should also ask some specific questions before making the modification also. Nibmeisters are of course not infallible, but that is just the risk you take. Hope for the best, use the best nibmeister and use the same one so they'll perhaps get used to your style after a while.

[View from the Loft]

 

I'm pleased to see I am not the only person unsure on this point.

 

And I'm a third that was wondering this.

 

We're all human - none of us get everything right first time.

[GabrielleDuVent]

So, what is the point of the topic, precisely? That people are human, or is it something that we didn't already know?

 

And here I thought all of you were cyberbots! Someone lied!

 

Jokes aside, they're "meisters"; they aren't infallible. Even the best grammarian makes a mistake at times.

 

Do they make mistakes? Yes, of course they will. Will I do a much better job? I can bet my hand I won't.

 

If it bothers you that much, actually go to the nib-meister yourself to get it tuned. I certainly don't "send" my instrument to the luthier; I go there myself. There are certain quirks between the user and the instrument sometimes.

[Fabienne]

I really think it's tricky. You may ask a nibmeister to do something and that action causes a problem in another part of the pen. If you don't ask to have that problem fixed, it's not the nibmeister's fault, now is it? Also, your tastes and the tastes of the nibmeister might be very different indeed. He might be able to make 99.99% of his clients blissfully happy but you just find his work "meh" and that is because of your taste. Finally, there are the less-than-perfect nibmeisters, and you might run across them, too. I have dealt with all three types and I will go back to the first ones in a hearbeat. The second and third, not so much. You just have to live and learn and if you have not dealt with someone expen$ive and you have a pen which needs tweaking, ask a friend on the board what they think before you send your pen away to be inexorably altered. References are always always a great idea before using someone you don't know.

[Lyander0012]

Strangely enough, this is the first time I've heard of anyone having trouble with a nibmeister. I mean, sure, the "meister" bit may sound a bit grandiose or whatever, but it's a title that's well-deserved. They invest a lot of time and effort into working the fine art of nib re-working. Trust me, I have fairly steady hands and some experience with working with tiny things, but regrinding a nib to suit a particular individual's writing style? Bloody Mary, it's a lot harder than it looks; however difficult you might think it is to modify or tune a nib, it's usually a lot harder than you expect.

 

This goes double for nibmeisters who usually have to deal with dozens of orders at a time, by the way, meaning dozens of different grinds and customizations and flow adjustments to deal with.

[SteveE]

I was reading this topic, all set to jump in. . . then I realized that I cannot really add much to what has already been said. I just consider myself lucky that I have never had a nib come back that was so far from my wants that I could not get it the rest of the way there myself. All of the nib people I have worked with (only about 4 of the best known folks) have turned out very respectable products - just once in a while not exactly what I had hoped for. In these rare cases, though, they were close and I just had to tweak a small bit to finish it off. I consider that success. A couple of my pens made multiple trips back to the nib shop, but to the shops' credit, there was never any push-back. I wasn't happy, they saw what was wrong, and they remedied the issue in a most personable and businesslike manner. I would go back to any of these shops at any time.

 

As I said, I consider myself lucky.

[RudyR]

 

And I'm a third that was wondering this.

 

We're all human - none of us get everything right first time.

+ 1

Its just someone who wants to grouse about his / hers experience. Maybe even wants to cast a wide net of aspersions to hopefully shame the person. No personal info on the OP so I don't take this OP's opinion too seriously until I learn a little more about him/ her.

[kronion]

So, what is the point of the topic, precisely? That people are human, or is it something that we didn't already know?

But although the thread started with this rather unsurprising insight into human nature, there are some more interesting points in the discussion: That consulting a nibmeister is very much about communication (both ways), and that the two paries can have different expectations and ideas about the same thing (what is the perfect pen).

[JonSzanto]

But although the thread started with this rather unsurprising insight into human nature, there are some more interesting points in the discussion: That consulting a nibmeister is very much about communication (both ways), and that the two paries can have different expectations and ideas about the same thing (what is the perfect pen).

One always hopes for the best.

[Lyander0012]

... Honestly, I dunno about you guys, but I'm one of those excessively polite and empathetic people that believe that it's perfectly fine to make mistakes, so long as they weren't done on purpose (if that were the case, I drop the "excessively polite and empathetic" bit). Nibmeisters generally work really hard at their trade to earn their keep, though I guess some people just do it to keep busy. Whatever the case may be, they do try their best to make sure that their clients end up with exactly the pen they want. At least, the reputable ones that we all know and love do, as far as I'm aware.

 

Oh, and though I realize this has already been said several times before, it bears repeating: of course no one is infallible, and saying that nibmeisters in particular are "far" from infallible is a rather subjective thing to postulate; how does one determine how far is "far"?

 

If anyone's had trouble with pen-work, then the most reasonable thing to do would be to contact the person whom you had tinker with the nib and state your case. Nine times out of ten (disclaimer: not an actual statistical finding), the problem was a mere oversight or the result of damage attained during transportation.

 

Cheers!

 

 

P.S.

The kindergarten I attended when I was younger didn't have an actual garden. Ought I make a fuss over that? "Nibmeister" is a title indicating one's familiarity and experience in working with, you guessed it, nibs. However, as is the case with a lot of words in most every language nowadays, people are beginning to generalize and misuse the term to suit themselves as a matter of convenience. Only experience will be able to tell the nibmeister from the nibmeister.