Name Change: Should A Kultur Be Called Simply "phileas"?

[TwelveDrawings]

In my hunt for Phileas fountain pen bargains, I naturally glance through eBay occasionally. The number of $199 price tags on black Phileas pens tell me that the sellers are feeling bullish (optimistic) about the price of that model. FP experts might call this irrational overpricing, but the buyers have the final vote on what the pen is really worth.

 

Phileas "Kultur" pens are an inexpensive version of the more costly Phileas. They lack the gold-plating and have no hefty brass tube inside the handle. The Kultur models have a slightly different tip on their cap, but appear to be cast from the same mold as a conventional Phileas. Every Kultur I have seen is made of transparent—and often colorfully tinted—plastic instead of the Phileas' signature opaque colors. I prefer Phileas, but I notice the Kultur have been selling for $20-40 lately.

 

This morning, I came across this listing on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/WATERMAN-PHILEAS-TRANS-BLUE-DEMONSTRATOR-FOUNT-PEN-MED-/130484388789?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6179c3b5

 

See anything missing? The photo shows a transparent blue pen with no gold plating and no brass tube inside. Look at the name. It is called a Phileas "demonstrator"; the word "Kultur" is nowhere in sight. I myself bought a crystal clear Phileas "demonstrator" last year, thinking it would be an interesting novelty. Only later did I realize it is the same pen as the more colorful Kultur. I paid about $35 last year and today's pen has a "buy now" price of $67.....about what a classic used Phileas sells for.

 

I don't know this particular seller and they would probably say I am making much ado over a simple omission. I'll grant that. But as the true Phileas pens become increasingly rare, will we see more Kulturs being presented as a full-fledge Phileas? And is that truth or truth-stretching?

 

So what do you think? Is it fair to label such a pen as a "Phileas" without adding "Kultur"?

 

BTW, what does "demonstrator" really mean? Is that a designation that Phileas uses? Or is it the seller's way of saying the pen has been extensively handled and perhaps used in a store?

Edited August 26, 2013 by TwelveDrawings

[Left FPN]

This topic is a regular here, IMHO a Phileas has to have all 4 components to qualify,

 

1. a dual colour nib.

2. cigar band on barrel.

3. twin bands on cap,

4. brass liner in barrel.

 

anything else is a Kultur.

 

unfortuanetly some Kultures come in the same colours as the Phili so you cannot precisely tie them down to that aspect.

 

Ref demonstartors...I think this explains it better,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonstrator_pen

Edited August 26, 2013 by Force

[TwelveDrawings]

This topic is a regular here, IMHO a Phileas has to have all 4 components to qualify,

 

1. a dual colour nib.

2. cigar band on barrel.

3. twin bands on cap,

4. brass liner in barrel.

 

anything else is a Kultur.

 

unfortuanetly some Kultures come in the same colours as the Phili so you cannot precisely tie them down to that aspect.

 

Ref demonstartors...I think this explains it better,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonstrator_pen

Thanks, Force. I thought you would know.

 

This reminds me of an unrelated story. Frank Lloyd Wright's brother John was also an architect. John designed houses and, over the course of decades, the memories of some homeowners became muddled and they started to claim that the more famous brother had done the work.

 

An architecture journalist went on a trek to locate and document these John Wright houses. He approached the present owners, most of whom proudly proclaimed the original architect to be Frank Lloyd Wright himself. When the journalist produced the documentation proving John's true role, the journalist was often chased off of the property.

 

In some oblique way, this may foreshadow how the Phileas market will go in the future. People will prize their Phileas Kulturs as being undifferentiated from a Phileas. It will be a test of seller integrity to see how many buyers are told the complete truth BEFORE the purchase.

 

Phileas caveat emptor.

Edited August 26, 2013 by TwelveDrawings

[AnUprightMan]

You can get them in "iridescent" colors for $20 shipped


These sellers are probably just trying to get lucky and maybe sell a $20-40 pen for 21-41... not that it really makes a difference to knowledgeable pen users (if you really want something, you're going to get it) but they might be trying to take advantage of "noobs" who think they're getting a $200 pen for a tenth of that

[TwelveDrawings]

Amazon confirms you are right, AnUprightMan. A Soft Pink Kultur is going for $14.99 plus shipping. -- TwelveDrawings.com

[TwelveDrawings]

This topic is a regular here, IMHO a Phileas has to have all 4 components to qualify,

 

1. a dual colour nib.

2. cigar band on barrel.

3. twin bands on cap,

4. brass liner in barrel.

 

anything else is a Kultur.

 

unfortuanetly some Kultures come in the same colours as the Phili so you cannot precisely tie them down to that aspect.

 

Ref demonstartors...I think this explains it better,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonstrator_pen

Buyer beware.

 

In the months since I started this thread, advertisements for "Phileas Kultur" pens have become the MAJORITY. This is a sore subject for me because I love the truly unique Phileas. Personally, the name mashup sounds as silly as calling a car a "Porsche Volkswagen". Not the same car; not the same pens.

 

If a pen does not have the features Fergus described above, it is not a Phileas. You should certainly buy and enjoy a Kultur for a great price. But don't pay more out of the mistaken belief that it is a Phileas.

[Chthulhu]

I've run across a number of other things on auction sites propagating misinformation such as this. It appears to me that the problem lies with sellers unknowledgeable about their wares simply copying what other ignorant sellers have said, rather than doing a little research in order to be accurate. The more copycats there are, the more their words are assumed to be correct, and the problem grows.

 

We can help somewhat to slow the growth by letting those sellers know that their descriptions are inaccurate. My success with this has been limited, but it's been better than nothing.

[TwelveDrawings]

I've run across a number of other things on auction sites propagating misinformation such as this. It appears to me that the problem lies with sellers unknowledgeable about their wares simply copying what other ignorant sellers have said, rather than doing a little research in order to be accurate. The more copycats there are, the more their words are assumed to be correct, and the problem grows.

 

We can help somewhat to slow the growth by letting those sellers know that their descriptions are inaccurate. My success with this has been limited, but it's been better than nothing.

Thank you for pointing out that more can be done than mere hand-wringing. You're right that some of it may be innocent ignorance, fueled by other instances of willful misrepresentation. -- TwelveDrawings.com

[pajaro]

I bought a red Kultur demonstrator from Montgomery Stationery on ebay, and I was glad to get a fine point. It's a nice writer. After getting a clarification from Force, I messaged Montgomery that they ought to call those pens Kultur and not Phileas. They wrote me back about how uninformed I was and they had expert opinion on their side, blah, blah, blah. So I wrote them back that I had the opinion of another European collector to the contrary. They wrote me back and I deleted the reply. Balderdash is Burn Before Reading. So, you know what they are marketing as Phileas.

 

I just wanted to try a Waterman of some sort, and I am pleased with what I got for $26 free shipping. The price tells you something.

[impossiblebird]

I don't think it's fair to label a Kultur as Phileas at all, let alone call it a Phileas without even mentioning the word Kultur. As far as I know, the nibs are of similar quality, albeit with different plating, and that fact might be legitimately pointed out, but the bodies are substantially different, and the Phileas commensurately costlier. That's fair enough; after all, a Lamy Studio commands a higher price than a Safari.

 

I've emailed sellers who have mislabeled Kulturs, and from their replies can only suppose that the majority are knowingly trading on the inflated value that has lately been attached to the Phileas model. Bad enough that the discontinued Kultur is offered at inflated prices even when labelled honestly, but for them to be sold at prices that might represent "all its money" for a Phileas ...

[TwelveDrawings]

I bought a red Kultur demonstrator from Montgomery Stationery on ebay, and I was glad to get a fine point. It's a nice writer. After getting a clarification from Force, I messaged Montgomery that they ought to call those pens Kultur and not Phileas. They wrote me back about how uninformed I was and they had expert opinion on their side, blah, blah, blah. So I wrote them back that I had the opinion of another European collector to the contrary. They wrote me back and I deleted the reply. Balderdash is Burn Before Reading. So, you know what they are marketing as Phileas.

 

I just wanted to try a Waterman of some sort, and I am pleased with what I got for $26 free shipping. The price tells you something.

Thank you for at least trying, pajaro. Had their mistake been an innocent one, they would have checked around and then corrected themselves. They can make more money by distorting the facts, which gives business people a bad reputation all around. A Kultur is a Waterman and that should be incentive enough to buy one. Calling it a Phileas is dishonest in every way I can see.

[TwelveDrawings]

This topic is a regular here, IMHO a Phileas has to have all 4 components to qualify,

 

1. a dual colour nib.

2. cigar band on barrel.

3. twin bands on cap,

4. brass liner in barrel.

 

anything else is a Kultur.

 

unfortuanetly some Kultures come in the same colours as the Phili so you cannot precisely tie them down to that aspect.

 

Ref demonstartors...I think this explains it better,

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demonstrator_pen

(NO NEED TO REPLY. SEE BELOW) Your definition is very helpful. It separates the diamonds from the zirconium. But I do not see a mention of gold coloration on the metal. Would you consider that to also be a hallmark of the Phileas? Thanks in advance. -- TwelveDrawings

 

WAIT: I withdraw my question. One of your earlier posts includes a very clear photo of a Kultur with gold tones.

Edited March 23, 2014 by TwelveDrawings

[Left FPN]

Wait....there should and can be a 5th criteria...weight.

 

An empty, uncartridged, fountain pen should weigh over 20 grams. I tested 4 Phili's and they weighed between 20.4 and 20.6 grams.

 

The pretentious Phileas or rather posh Kultur shown will weigh in the region of 16 grams because it does not have a brass sleeve, is missing a cap ring along with part of the cigar band. I could only test 1 pen for this data, a Blue.

 

and yes, there is no such pen as a Phileas demonstrator, certainly not a clear plastic model...for obvious reasons.

Edited March 24, 2014 by Force

[RMN]

Is not that 5th criterium just a derivative of the fourth (brass liner)??

 

 

D.ick

[pajaro]

The brass tube dropped out of my green marbled Phileas after it arrived, and I didn't see it drop. So I put in a clear plastic converter I got from my supply guy and everything went great until I found the brass tube and wondered what the heck it was. Then I read these threads and opened up the Phileas and dropped the tube in the barrel. Then the converter wouldn't fit, and I had to order genuine Waterman converters at three times the cost.

 

The $2.95 converters also fit Cross and a number of other pens, so that's not a total loss. I suspect that your touted brass tube is simply a way Waterman could enforce sales of its proprietary converters, and not a consumer advantage. I can take the tube out, and the pen is a tad bit lighter without it. It looks like the brass tube was glued in and the adhesive bond failed. I wondered what that tube was for a couple of weeks.

 

The $2.95 converters work in the Kultur model, of course, with no restrictive tube in the barrel.

 

That said, I think Waterman has some responsibility here with regard to the way sellers advertise the product. Waterman should require the use of "Kultur" for that model, or rename it as "Phileas Nouveau" or "Phileas II Kultur" or something else distinctive. False advertising should be reported to the selling site and to Waterman, as if they care. They ought to care.

[esteroids]

4 grams of the finest French brass Phileas barrel liner

[esteroids]

This is as close as I get to a Phileas demo:

I should probably go back and add the cigar band and Phil nib

[Left FPN]

This is as close as I get to a Phileas demo:

I should probably go back and add the cigar band and Phil nib

BUt can you add the cigar band...

[Left FPN]

Is not that 5th criterium just a derivative of the fourth (brass liner)??

 

 

D.ick

It could be added to 4...to really firm up the criteria.

[TwelveDrawings]

BUt can you add the cigar band...

You can? And wouldn't the fountain pen Fairy Godmother smack you over the head with her wand for doing that?