Advice On Getting Feet Wet With Vintage...

[oregano]

In anticipation of the DC show, I'm looking forward to finally getting to try and hold some vintage Montblanc, and hopefully buying one.

But as a relative FP newbie, I know I'm going to be overwhelmed by the offerings and thought I would get a head start by asking for advice on which pens I should direct my attention to in terms of period and model. My point of reference is the only MB I own, a 147 from the mid-90's. I've been incredibly happy with this pen, and consider it second to none, very close to perfect--it has more 'character' than any of my other modern fountain pens (Pelikan, Delta, Lamy). As an EF nib, there is feedback, but I think I would like a tad more 'give' in the nib; not a lot, but some. I'm considering a 146,

but there are days I also find the size of the 147 large to use, and would welcome a thinner or smaller pen. The wing-tip nib 1xx seems to be more affordable but I'm not a fan of them aesthetically and like the full-size nib, so I'm wondering which models would fit some of these criteria and be reasonably priced, if any (in about $300 range?)

 

Anyway, sorry for the very specific question, but I don't know if I'll be able to try every single pen at the show or ask a lot of questions, so any advice is most welcome...

[orfew]

One of my best writers is a 3-42G. It has a smooth flexible nib and is relatively small pen. It has very plain looks, it is not a flashy pen. Also, you should be able to get one of these for 125-175 dollars. The 344 is a also a third tier pen and is a bit larger than the 3-42. You might also think of the 12,14,22,24 pens. The 12 and 14 were top tier pens and the 22 and 24 were second tier. I have 1 24 with an OBB nib and it is a great writer with a semi flexible nib. You might be able to pick up a 22 or 24 for less than 150.00. Again these pens are not flashy but they are all competent or better writers. All of the above pens are piston fillers.

 

If you are interested in spending more then I would look at the 142, 144, and 146 celluloid models from the 50's. These were first tier pens so they will cost more. However, they are excellent writers. Also keep in mind that these models are smaller that their modern counterparts. The 146 from the 50's is shorter than today's. The 142 is a small pen but is amazing. I had one and still regret selling it.

 

Have fun looking for your next pen.

[pavoni]

Can't really add to orfew's excellent advice other than you might find it useful to take a look at those models orfew recommends, on the excellent Penboard.de site.

 

Hope you manage to get what you are after and look to share it with us soon after

 

Pavoni.

[provis]

Vintage Montblancs are generally wonderful writers, regardless of its tier. A great part of the pleasure is in the nib.

 

For longevity's and collection's sake, you would do well with pens that sport a sweet 14k nib -- these are usually rather flexible but not wet noodleish like some of the English pens I own, but enough give to create some really astounding line variation for regular writing.

 

However, I find myself falling more and more in love with vintage Montblanc steel nibs -- these are far more flexible than 14k nibs, almost paintbrush-like in quality. But caveat emptor -- if you must get a steel nib variant, get them from a reputable seller and not from the wild, which are far likely to have experienced corrosion one way or the other.

 

I like the 14X series, but 13X series have become my to-go pen. They seem sturdier in hand, though much older than their 14X descendents!

[jar]

There are several Montblancs that are Pelikan 200/400/old 600 size; the X4 or xx4 pens. Among my favorites are the234½ pens but there are also the 144, 244, 344, 254 and 264 and in the slim flat end 60-70s look the 14, 24, 34, 121, 220, 221 and 321. All are fairly common, the 3XX and 3x pens generally the least expensive and the 14, 121 and 144 being the more expensive.

Here are a few.

http://www.fototime.com/03A653AD3848455/large.jpg

234½ and a "Luxury" 234½, 144, early M-400.

http://www.fototime.com/E632794B5D2EB5A/medium800.jpg

144 top, 254, 264 bottom

 

 

http://www.fototime.com/21D01EC2FCA65F9/medium800.jpg

 

From top; 74, 12, 21, 121, 221, 220

[orfew]

Nice pictures and nice pens Jar.

[oregano]

One of my best writers is a 3-42G. It has a smooth flexible nib and is relatively small pen. It has very plain looks, it is not a flashy pen. Also, you should be able to get one of these for 125-175 dollars. The 344 is a also a third tier pen and is a bit larger than the 3-42. You might also think of the 12,14,22,24 pens. The 12 and 14 were top tier pens and the 22 and 24 were second tier. I have 1 24 with an OBB nib and it is a great writer with a semi flexible nib. You might be able to pick up a 22 or 24 for less than 150.00. Again these pens are not flashy but they are all competent or better writers. All of the above pens are piston fillers.

 

If you are interested in spending more then I would look at the 142, 144, and 146 celluloid models from the 50's. These were first tier pens so they will cost more. However, they are excellent writers. Also keep in mind that these models are smaller that their modern counterparts. The 146 from the 50's is shorter than today's. The 142 is a small pen but is amazing. I had one and still regret selling it.

 

Have fun looking for your next pen.

 

Thank you for laying out some of the possibilities and price ranges for me, orfew. I definitely prefer the classic look and feel of the 14x models, but am keeping an open mind since I haven't tried the other pens, and as you say, they're great writers. I'll be taking this info. with me to the show, and whatever happens, will have fun looking for it!

[oregano]

The pictures and groupings by size are a very helpful reference, thanks Jar. I should print this out and take it with me. (Thanks also for including a Pelikan, which helps give me a better sense of size.) I'm looking forward to checking the xx4, which I had previously discarded, and am eager to see how much smaller the vintage pens are sized. I will look out for the 234 1/2 on your recommendation.

 

There are several Montblancs that are Pelikan 200/400/old 600 size; the X4 or xx4 pens. Among my favorites are the234½ pens but there are also the 144, 244, 344, 254 and 264 and in the slim flat end 60-70s look the 14, 24, 34, 121, 220, 221 and 321. All are fairly common, the 3XX and 3x pens generally the least expensive and the 14, 121 and 144 being the more expensive.

Here are a few.

http://www.fototime.com/03A653AD3848455/large.jpg

234½ and a "Luxury" 234½, 144, early M-400.

http://www.fototime.com/E632794B5D2EB5A/medium800.jpg

144 top, 254, 264 bottom

 

 

http://www.fototime.com/21D01EC2FCA65F9/medium800.jpg

 

From top; 74, 12, 21, 121, 221, 220

 

 

Vintage Montblancs are generally wonderful writers, regardless of its tier. A great part of the pleasure is in the nib.

 

For longevity's and collection's sake, you would do well with pens that sport a sweet 14k nib -- these are usually rather flexible but not wet noodleish like some of the English pens I own, but enough give to create some really astounding line variation for regular writing.

 

However, I find myself falling more and more in love with vintage Montblanc steel nibs -- these are far more flexible than 14k nibs, almost paintbrush-like in quality. But caveat emptor -- if you must get a steel nib variant, get them from a reputable seller and not from the wild, which are far likely to have experienced corrosion one way or the other.

 

I like the 14X series, but 13X series have become my to-go pen. They seem sturdier in hand, though much older than their 14X descendents!

 

I will keep this in mind, thanks Provis. I do worry about sturdiness and longevity... hopefully having more than one Montblanc will solve that problem !

 

Can't really add to orfew's excellent advice other than you might find it useful to take a look at those models orfew recommends, on the excellent Penboard.de site.

 

Hope you manage to get what you are after and look to share it with us soon after

 

Pavoni.

 

I will do that, thank you, Pavoni! Your collection is certainly inspiring.

[oregano]

Reporting back...I finally got to try some vintage Montblanc at the show--everything from the Danish 2XX to a 136, 142 and 149 from the 50's (thanks to Joe), a 254/6. The celluloid from the fifties is warm to touch; I now understand why pens from these period are so valued, apart from the nib, of course. My favorite nib was what I was told was a 320 but it was out of my price range, so I settled on a 234 1/2. I overlooked what I'm guessing is user-grade condition for the exceptional nib...it's like walking on water, or writing on a cloud. Thanks for the recommendation, Jar! (as a side note, I tried a 234 1/2 G from a different period and was surprised to note that it was considerably different, not as soft even though I thought 'g' indicated flex.)

 

I was so tired that I forgot to ask a Montblanc expert at the show to look at the pen after purchasing it and now have a few questions about caring for it (the man who sold it to me didn't seem to know very much, except that it was made during the war).

 

The nib is marked as 'DO.' What does 'DO' stand for? (a quick google search did not turn up anything). The nib tines look a bit separated/crooked on the right side, but they meet at the tip and it doesn't seem to affect the writing...I'm wondering if it requires fixing. There is ink that has moved to the back of the pen; is there a particular way to clean vintage ink, or will water suffice? And finally, can I apply something to the clip to try to remove brassing without damaging its patina? I will do some research tonight, but any quick tips would be much appreciated. I forgot to take a pic of the back of the nib but the feed looks modern.

 

 

And I can't help posting this pen as well, which I never thought I would find, much less be able to have! It's one of my 'grail pens' that I thought I would add to my 'collection' in maybe 10-15 years; I was lucky to stumble across a collector selling it from his personal collection, still waiting for the box, which hopefully he will send.

 

 

All in all, it was a great show! Exhausting, but well worth it.

 

[jar]

Looks like an early 234½. If there is ink behind the piston just stop. Fill with water and let it sit overnight nib up and check for leaks.

 

And I love your Yesterday as well.

[JLS1]

Congrats on the 234 1/2 - I have one as well (the 'luxury model, based on Jar's photos) and it's a great pen and a sturdy workhorse. FWIW, if you feel that the pen writes well, I wouldn't touch/adjust the nib...if you do, send it to a reputable nibmeister (like John Mottishaw, Pendleton Brown, etc.)

[oregano]

Looks like an early 234½. If there is ink behind the piston just stop. Fill with water and let it sit overnight nib up and check for leaks.

 

And I love your Yesterday as well.

 

Many thanks, Jar. I will fill it with water tonight. I really wish I had shown it to someone there for more info. and to check it. After reading up a bit, I have more questions about the model and date, since the nib is 14k and there is no D.R.P. that I can see anywhere stamped on the barrel. Perhaps I can send pictures to penboard.de to inquire about it.

 

Congrats on the 234 1/2 - I have one as well (the 'luxury model, based on Jar's photos) and it's a great pen and a sturdy workhorse. FWIW, if you feel that the pen writes well, I wouldn't touch/adjust the nib...if you do, send it to a reputable nibmeister (like John Mottishaw, Pendleton Brown, etc.)

 

Thank you, JLS1! I feel like I got lucky; it was one of the top three vintage MB nibs I tried at the show, at least for me. I will keep the nib as is. My thought was to have it repaired only if it becomes a problem, but it would have been nice to get the whole pen checked when I had the opportunity.

Edited August 12, 2013 by paloma32

[pavoni]

Welcome back paloma and congratulations on your first vintage MB 234 1/2, a very popular and reliable vintage pen, which from the look of things, will serve you well

 

The 234 1/2 was clearly a successful pen for Montblanc, which was in production from 1936 right up until 1954. Your 'Wartime' pen is the middle version of the three standard variations available. The two excellent versions shown by Jar (8th August) are typical of the early and latter ones to be had. If we place your pen with the other two, it would look something like this:

 

I have always liked the wartime cap but you may be surprised to learn that this comes in both tall and short version for the 234 1/2. There are also a number of clips to be found. The 3rd-tier MB clip on yours isn't unusual on these 2nd-tier pens and Indeed, I have seen a number of 234 1/2s sold on the reputable Penboard.de with exactly the same configuration as yours

 

Can't quite make out your nib from your picture but I suspect it is probably more like the one on the right of my picture!

 

However, I have not yet come across the markings you make mention of 'DO'? Is the marking clear or faint? Is it possible you have misread the marking? Anything, other than the model number, on the piston-filler knob?

 

As for the feed, again yours will likely be either like that on my middle and right pen!

 

Great advice from Jar on the soaking, and from JLS1 on leaving the nib alone if writing with this pen already meets your expectations.

 

Really pleased you managed to find your first vintage MB and that you have chosen to share it with us

 

Pavoni.

Edited August 13, 2013 by pavoni

[oregano]

Thank you for the information and pictures, Pavoni, I really appreciate it. And thanks for assuaging my doubts; I was beginning to think I had a mismatched cap and pen. There seem to be a lot of variations on this pen from what you say and the little I read today. I like this clip better than the non-luxury one, actually, but I still feel better knowing that the combination was standard back then (the 40's-50's). I think I found out what the 'DO' stands for: Manifold Oblique (please correct me if I'm wrong). Yes, you guessed right about the nib, despite the blurry picture! Here's a clearer one:

 

 

The feed is different from the ones pictured; I just found pictures of feeds from MB made in 1955 that look like it; does that date the pen later?

 

 

I didn't find any other markings on the pen. Here's a shot of the piston knob:

 

 

I filled it the piston up with water and am crossing my fingers that there's no leakage!

 

p.s.--sorry the pictures are miniscule; I had to compress them and there's only one setting smaller before they go over the kb limit...

Edited August 13, 2013 by paloma32

[slippery when wet]

Hi, what would one expect to pay for this particular model

[oregano]

Well Pavoni or someone else can probably answer better than I can; generally from what I heard--well, read, in forums--less than $200 is standard for this model (I negotiated and paid slightly less than that), but other people were selling it much higher (those pens were in much more pristine condition). I did a 'bay search and found the non-luxury models going for $145-170 (the 'Luxury' model of the same line is much more, from what I gather; I don't know what its price is). In my opinion, it's a great deal considering the quality of the nib you're getting (but that seems to be true with vintage in general!).

[pavoni]

Hi paloma,

 

Thanks for extra information. You are absolutely right of course on the nib-type 'DO' must stand for Manifold Oblique. The manifold nibs are stiff nibs, typically used for accounting and writing on carbon/duplicate paper etc. Given their specialist use, I hadn't appreciated an oblique version, so thank you for that. I have only come across 'DF', and 'DM' but given your 'DO' nib, here must obviously have been other such manifold versions including left and right obliques!

 

The cap looks fine and the oxidised (hard rubber) cap top serves to add additional authenticity to your pen Your clip is probably the most sturdy of the lot, so should serve you well. Any further markings will have been on the blind cap, the cap you took off to expose the piston-filling knob. However, again it isn't unusual to find these without markings, sometimes even without the model number, which is pretty frustrating for a picky so-and-so like me

 

Pavoni.

[oregano]

Hi paloma,

 

Thanks for extra information. You are absolutely right of course on the nib-type 'DO' must stand for Manifold Oblique. The manifold nibs are stiff nibs, typically used for accounting and writing on carbon/duplicate paper etc. Given their specialist use, I hadn't appreciated an oblique version, so thank you for that. I have only come across 'DF', and 'DM' but given your 'DO' nib, here must obviously have been other such manifold versions including left and right obliques!

 

The cap looks fine and the oxidised (hard rubber) cap top serves to add additional authenticity to your pen Your clip is probably the most sturdy of the lot, so should serve you well. Any further markings will have been on the blind cap, the cap you took off to expose the piston-filling knob. However, again it isn't unusual to find these without markings, sometimes even without the model number, which is pretty frustrating for a picky so-and-so like me

 

Pavoni.

 

I'm glad to know it's authentically dated!

 

Yes, I'm surprised that it's a manifold nib--not that I have much experience with them, but it doesn't feel anywhere as stiff as the other manifold nibs I've tried, one of which I remember was a vintage Pelikan. The nib is actually very soft; maybe it seems supple by comparison with my modern nibs? Anyway, just thought I should mention that since it seems unusual.

[pavoni]

Hi Slippery (how's that coffee making coming along . I've just this moment polished off a nice Bolivian double espresso)

 

Given the success of the MB 234 1/2 and the length of time it was in production, there are plenty around. Indeed, if you add in all the fantastic coloured versions, which include a Platinum version :puddle: as well as those that were adorned with a jeweller's overlay, it is easy to understand why the 234 1/2 is so much appreciated.

 

As for price, concentrating on the standard versions depicted in this thread, the price paid by paloma for his, with that degree of transparency at the bottom of the barrel, is fine. For a version I was keen to acquire, with all the boxes ticked (right nib, right clip, good markings, no barrel transparency etc, I would expect to pay just over £300 for a near mint. Luxury versions go for more than the earlier versions,. I have two Luxury models (different nibs), an early and a Wartime version.

 

My personal preference is for the earlier versions (piston knob and blind cap version, with fluted clip) and the Wartime version, particularly with a palladium nib. These are not rare pens and as such, there is plenty of opportunity to pick one up relatively cheaply and to seek out replacement parts from more scruffy ones (to replace clips, nibs, cap tops etc). They really are good and reliable pens as previously stated. Such is the range available (inc the beautiful coloured and jeweller versions) that one could easily have a MB 234 1/2 collection.

 

Must dash, late for work again

 

Pavoni.

[slippery when wet]

Hi Pavoni, the coffee is just fine, its the addiction to it that worries me.

Thanks for your input to my query. The 234 1/2 really appeals to me on so many levels. I always thought Montblancs were over priced

and now I find myself thinking about buying one.

Any now, back to my coffee I must go.

Edited August 13, 2013 by slippery when wet