Visionnaire Fountain Pen

[heymatthew]

Shocker...

[stopher]

Shocker...

I so desperately wanted to believe, even with the Alibaba findings.

 

Nice work on KS, helping out the newbies with their brand new Visionnaire's.

[OnePenGuy]

Well, maybe some new info? The same "company" which had the "borrowed" images from the Solid Titanium Pen & Stylus project - http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/1146197652/2013_New_Style_Multifunction_Titanium_Pen.html - also has pics grabbed (or, copied, again) for the Lamy 2000 titanium pen: http://hjpen.en.alibaba.com/product/1146197785-218907993/2013_New_Style_Multifunction_Titanium_Pen.html No way that they go and make the Lamy bp, right?

 

So I figure you can't trust the alibaba site... Seems anyone can put up content whether it's theirs or not. Not sure if that's the same case for the Visionnaire pen "clone" mentioned in the previous post...

[stopher]

Well, maybe some new info? The same "company" which had the "borrowed" images from the Solid Titanium Pen & Stylus project - http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/1146197652/2013_New_Style_Multifunction_Titanium_Pen.html - also has pics grabbed (or, copied, again) for the Lamy 2000 titanium pen: http://hjpen.en.alibaba.com/product/1146197785-218907993/2013_New_Style_Multifunction_Titanium_Pen.html No way that they go and make the Lamy bp, right?

 

So I figure you can't trust the alibaba site... Seems anyone can put up content whether it's theirs or not. Not sure if that's the same case for the Visionnaire pen "clone" mentioned in the previous post...

Very interesting find. There will always be knock-offs on the market. With the Visionnaire pen project, the big concern is more about how it was sold to backers on KS. I am sure we could find Michael Kors bags

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/1435271072/2014_new_design_bowknot_bag_fashion.html

yep, just did LOL

[heymatthew]

Well, maybe some new info? The same "company" which had the "borrowed" images from the Solid Titanium Pen & Stylus project - http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/1146197652/2013_New_Style_Multifunction_Titanium_Pen.html - also has pics grabbed (or, copied, again) for the Lamy 2000 titanium pen: http://hjpen.en.alibaba.com/product/1146197785-218907993/2013_New_Style_Multifunction_Titanium_Pen.html No way that they go and make the Lamy bp, right?

 

So I figure you can't trust the alibaba site... Seems anyone can put up content whether it's theirs or not. Not sure if that's the same case for the Visionnaire pen "clone" mentioned in the previous post...

 

I think that Alibaba didn't "steal" his design anymore than he "designed" the pen from the ground up. I think he somehow worked out a purchase price for a mass-produced Chinese pen and then worked out the details with Alibaba. I think he's lying if he says Alibaba stole his design. I think it was their product to begin with.

 

I did a little research and Alibaba sells mass-produced cartridges for next-to-nothing, they also sell custom-printed cardboard tube packaging for way less than $1 per piece and the pen in question comes wrapped in plastic and shoved in a felt or faux velvet bag. If you added up the cost of the pens, packaging, cartridges, thank you note, founders card and shipping cost, he MIGHT have $5 in the whole package.

 

Is there any recourse at this point? Not unless KS can prove he violated the terms by determining that he didn't design the pen and that he just bought a mass-produced product from China. And they're probably not that interested in it. Besides, as the guy in the video said, he delivered what he promised. The product sucks, but he delivered. I haven't received mine yet, but I'm sure it won't suck anymore than some of the other crappy things I got from KS recently (Slim Wallet and KeySmart come to mind right away).

 

You win some, you lose some. C'est la vie.

[vossad01]

Matthew, I do want to say say I appreciate your involvement with the product here and in the Kickstarter comments. I very much look forward to your review. It is my first fountain pen and I know how it behaves, but I really do not know what is good, bad, or normal.

 

I backed the project early in the first day or two and admittedly it has been the least enjoyable Kickstarter project I have followed. It started off pleasant with a enjoyable story (or "vision") and hand written updates. Then one controversy after another ensued since like the 3rd day. I ultimately had to stop following it (and only resumed recently) because it was just so unproductive. There was enough legitimate concerns that I did not increase my pledge to two pens, but I was willing to give enough benefit of the doubt to keep one. I figure even now it is at least a start, a story, and possibly a small piece of Kickstarter history.

Edited November 26, 2013 by vossad01

[TheGreatRoe]

...It started off pleasant with a enjoyable story (or "vision") and hand written updates. Then one controversy after another ensued since like the 3rd day...

 

As someone who joined the campaign, but quickly changed my mind, I didn't know of any controversy until the current one. Simply as someone who likes FPs and Kickstarter, what other problems came up with this project?

[heymatthew]

Matthew, I do want to say say I appreciate your involvement with the product here and in the Kickstarter comments. I very much look forward to your review. It is my first fountain pen and I know how it behaves, but I really do not know what is good, bad, or normal.

 

I backed the project early in the first day or two and admittedly it has been the least enjoyable Kickstarter project I have followed. It started off pleasant with a enjoyable story (or "vision") and hand written updates. Then one controversy after another ensued since like the 3rd day. I ultimately had to stop following it (and only resumed recently) because it was just so unproductive. There was enough legitimate concerns that I did not increase my pledge to two pens, but I was willing to give enough benefit of the doubt to keep one. I figure even now it is at least a start, a story, and possibly a small piece of Kickstarter history.

 

Please don't let this controversy discourage you from exploring fountain pens further. Do I think the Visionnaire is a good first fountain pen? Probably not (although I can't say for sure because I still don't have mine). Do I think there are worse pens out there? Definitely so. I encourage you to dismiss the Visionnaire controversy. Enjoy it for what it is and do some research on your next purchase. This forum is an extraordinary place for information and advice. Read reviews. Ask questions. Make yourself at home.

 

I think you have a wonderful outlook on this whole thing. You stayed positive despite the negativity (I'm guilty of the negativity myself and I hope I haven't disrupted your experience in any way as it was my intention to be informative, not disruptive) and you enjoyed the KS experience, which I think is important.

Welcome to FPN! Feel free to drop me a line if you need anything at all.

[heymatthew]

 

As someone who joined the campaign, but quickly changed my mind, I didn't know of any controversy until the current one. Simply as someone who likes FPs and Kickstarter, what other problems came up with this project?

 

I think people really questioned whether or not he actually designed this pen as he was putting Higgins drawing ink in his pen, which shows he knows very little about how to properly use/care for a fountain pen, much less how to design it. Otherwise, I can't really see where else there were red flags.

 

Unless you listen to that original story about signing his baby's birth certificate and wanting something better for that, etc. Pretty unbelievable story, really, but he sold it well and definitely tugged on some heart strings for sure.

[vossad01]

 

what other problems came up with this project?

 

Since the page was update over the course of the campaign I can not get the exact problem language, also I may not have the chronology quite right.

 

It started of with the [lack of] stretch goals. Then were complaints about the speed at which questions were being answered (my stance was there were good/relevant questions being asked but some people were being impatient which resulted in some actual questions got lost). Then there was update #7 and its fallout. A few issues with language on the page (such as "eco-friendly converter" suggesting there was some sort of certification). Issues with it saying it would take any ink cartridge (now updated to clarify std. intl and std long). Red flags that the only image of Morgan was a zoomed in profile during part of the main video. Issues with the answer on what the pen would be made of. Questions on the legitimacy of the design firm (Theory Mob) he worked with. Questions of where the pen would be manufactured. Issues with the language suggesting it was a German-made nib rather than Chinese. Issues with the claim he would inspect/test every pen before it went out. People wanting to know what made his pen a "quality" pen.

 

 

I think people really questioned whether or not he actually designed this pen as he was putting Higgins drawing ink in his pen, which shows he knows very little about how to properly use/care for a fountain pen, much less how to design it.

 

The video where he used Higgins ink was in part a response to the lack of pictures of him being available. Those videos did not come until the 2nd half of the campaign and I was not following much by then. I actually only recently heard about this particular issue. Though his lack of FP knowledge was apparent sooner though his inability to provide good answer so some of the questions, particularly the "quality" questions. By that point it had come down to him designing a pen that he thought looked good enough to be "quality," it was going to be made in China, and he would stand behind it.

 

I am very thankful that he has been standing behind them. The first pen I received was defective and he sent me an entire new package (pen, converter, cartridges, and all).

[maksim]

The guy might of been not fully truthful, and peeved off a lot of the "fountain pen elite", but this guy did more good for the overall community than anyone on this forum perhaps. He introduced A LOT of new people to fountain pens. To them it is worth it.

 

Heck, just so we know that it is a chinese pen that was white boxed for him, and you can do the same.. why doesn't anyone else complain that Mont Blanc sells someone a $600 pen that costs them $25 to produce? lol. "precious resin".

 

$37 is a reasonable price to pay for a pen that will get looks. What if we did not find the Ali Baba link? Would anyone feel ripped off?

 

I feel horrible too, I really like this hobby, but as evident by the first few pages... the elitist snob culture is quite strong, and does nothing to invite new people who will appreciate fountain pens.

 

What good is a $600 Mont Blanc, $400 Pelican when in 20 years, when someone dies, you will have it sold in a garage sale for $.50. Quite frankly, Fountain Pens, and the people who collect them, and justify the high prices and this whole glass house are a dying breed.

 

Someone who is obviously new to fountain pens (the KS creator) wanted to get a quality feeling pen, over a bic, into people's hands and went out there to accomplish it. He made money in the process, but I venture to guess 95% of the people who backed the project, are more than happy with what they got.

 

The fountain pen community might not like it, but guess what, he got a whole lot of people into the fountain pen world, got them a decent product at a reasonable price. Yes, he made a profit.

 

Yes, I really wish he designed a pen from the ground up, but then again, how many cigar tubes are there? you can only be so creative, it has all been done before. He likely figured hey, there is a product that is already 99% of what I am looking for, so let me go that way.

 

In the grand scheme of things... this is a net win for every fountain pen user.

[maksim]

Btw, example of elitist snob behavior....

 

I stick my pen in my jean pocket every day, opposite of my Benchmade Knife, or HK Knife. If it is a Lamy Al Star, i use it on the belt clip.

 

A pen is made to be used. =)

 

Only concern is the pen is made of cheap finish and my knife scratches the pen. My meeting pen, Parker Sonnet or Mont Blanc, stays in my pad folio in a cheapie sleeve.

[picautomaton]

a true visionary - harness Kickstarter to bring fountain pens to the masses - he deserves all credit and according to my calculation he's making 30USD profit on each pen sold - not bad.

[Wheatflower]

$37 is a reasonable price to pay for a pen that will get looks. What if we did not find the Ali Baba link? Would anyone feel ripped off?

 

That pen isn't going to get any more looks than a Pilot Metropolitan will get. And the $15 Metro is widely loved on this hotbed of elitism, so I'm unsure of what your point is.

[heymatthew]

The problem with all of the people "accepting" this project and saying things like, "Well, he brought fountain pens to the masses," etc. is that he brought crappy, Chinese-made fountain pens to the masses by way of a sob story and a lie about designing a pen from the ground up. There are several reports of people complaining about their pens not working properly, broken caps, loose clips, skipping, etc. I'm sure if there are that many complaints in the comments, then there must be 1,000 others we're not seeing.

That's the problem with anything mass-produced the way the Visionnaire was. There's no way to quality check. Let's face it, China isn't exactly known for their QC on things like this and Morgan promised to check each pen personally, yet there are still pens being shipped out that are broken, etc. He's probably doing a batch test where he just looks at a few pens in a batch and then signs off on the box. There is little to no added value in the "extras" he is providing. The ink cartridges, packaging and founders card are worth roughly $1, maybe $2 at the very most. Half of the people aren't getting the "new and improved" converter that he splurged on (you can buy them on Alibaba as well) so there's no value in that.

 

CW+T did something amazing with the Pen Type A (I know because I have one and it was a frustrating, tiresome journey that ended extremely well). Karas Kustoms did great things with the Render K, Retrakt and Bolt (I have the K and the Retrakt). Morgan has essentially sourced a cheap, $1 Chinese pen, added in another $1 in "value added bonuses" and slapped a $3 first-class label on it and called it a day, pocketing $30 each on them. He's a marketing genius.

 

At this point, I'm not even questioning whether or not he actually designed the pen or his knowledge of fountain pens in general because it doesn't matter. Regardless of whether or not he designed the pen, or if Alibaba is selling the pen without his knowledge, he still only paid $1 for them and he'll never convince me otherwise unless he goes completely transparent and shows us exactly how much money he put into each pen. Apple does it with the iPhone. Microsoft will tell you what it costs to make an Xbox. Chrystler will tell you how much it costs to make a 300. Why won't Morgan tell us who makes his pens and how much each one cost him? Because he knows that he'd be in violation of KS rules as it will be proof that he sourced a mass-produced product.

[stopher]

Anyone that has actually designed a product will have more than enough proof of R+D work. This project had a tiny sketch with a straight piece of tube stock. That is not how a pen is designed. The Visionnaire is made of several parts that are compression fit together. If he really designed this pen he should have a note book full of sketches showing the thought process, the compression forces, the plus/minus tolerancing of the parts going together, calculations of the expansion and contraction properties.

 

He broke the KS rules and nothing is being done about it. That is the sad part of the story. White collar crime in full effect.

[WirsPlm]

The problem with all of the people "accepting" this project and saying things like, "Well, he brought fountain pens to the masses," etc. is that he brought crappy, Chinese-made fountain pens to the masses by way of a sob story and a lie about designing a pen from the ground up. There are several reports of people complaining about their pens not working properly, broken caps, loose clips, skipping, etc. I'm sure if there are that many complaints in the comments, then there must be 1,000 others we're not seeing.

That's the problem with anything mass-produced the way the Visionnaire was. There's no way to quality check. Let's face it, China isn't exactly known for their QC on things like this and Morgan promised to check each pen personally, yet there are still pens being shipped out that are broken, etc. He's probably doing a batch test where he just looks at a few pens in a batch and then signs off on the box. There is little to no added value in the "extras" he is providing. The ink cartridges, packaging and founders card are worth roughly $1, maybe $2 at the very most. Half of the people aren't getting the "new and improved" converter that he splurged on (you can buy them on Alibaba as well) so there's no value in that.

 

That's what I was afraid of (I just hope it didn't put people off FPs completely). On the one hand, I feel bad for the people who got taken in by this. On the other hand, anyone who's willing to plug 'cheap fountain pens' into the search engine of their choice can find lots and lots of options for much less than $40, so the people who fell into this are the people who either didn't care enough to look or went in with their eyes open (i.e. knowing that it was probably a scam) like heymatthew, so it's hard to feel too sorry for them. Hopefully the ones with problems will come here for help with their issues.

[heymatthew]

One other little piece of damning evidence is the fact that he offers an unconditional lifetime guarantee on a $37 pen. Pelikan doesn't offer that on the M1000. Visconti doesn't offer that on the HS series. Why? Because you can't offer a lifetime replacement guarantee on something that actually costs money to replace. It's just further proof that he's getting these pens for such little money that he can replace them without question. If he was truly dumping the extra money back into the project like he claims he is, then there wouldn't be any margin for replacements (or very little margin for it) and he would lose his shirt.

 

Kickstarter has done exactly squat to research this. I sent them a message and never received a response. They got their 10% or whatever it is they get and ran with it. They LOVE these kinds of projects. It's how they make money so you can't ask them to go and pull his funding or even chase after him because they'd lose their money, too. It's like the tobacco industry. It kills a million people a day, but no legislation is passed because there's so much money to be made that politicians actually allow it (yet marijuana is illegal).

 

Go figure. At this point, I just want my pen. Might take it out to the farm and make it range fodder for the ol' AR-15. It'll be a tough target, but at least it'll be fun.

[stopher]

Go figure. At this point, I just want my pen. Might take it out to the farm and make it range fodder for the ol' AR-15. It'll be a tough target, but at least it'll be fun.

This will be the best video of the pen!!!!

How to adjust the tip, with an AR shell

It is a shame that KS has not shown any movement on the project. Money can corrupt even those with morals. They really should make an example out of the project to set the record straight. As you said heymatthew, it is highly unlikely they will get off their wallets to change anything.

[PlayerX]

And then there's this video from the kickstarter page which just made me straight up cringe as someone who's OCD about pen hygiene, changed ink alot and someone who doesn't like to wreck stuff because he loaded the pen with dip pen inks that contain adhesives.