Cute Pens For Us Girls!

[TSherbs]

Generally speaking, differentiating the sexes is especially important today when equality is confused with sameness.

*How* one does it is less important. Why not with pens!

"genotypic differentiation"

 

Female: XX, (rarer: XO, XXX)

Male: XY, (rarer: XXY, XYY)

 

Other than reproduction (the mixing and passing on of genetic information to subsequent generations), I am not sure what is not "the same" except in how we view things from our own mental filters. I believe that the story of Eden (I am not a Christian or Jew) reflects a fundamental truth about all humanity: we all are made of the same stuff ("dirt" or "bone") and that when we see the genders as different (after the eating of the fruit) we bring on ourselves shame, sorrow, blame, pain, punishment, and separation. Spirituality, and daily practice, then, are how we can re-unite what our cultural minds have divided ("knowledge of good and evil"), in the same way that the story states that we (some of us) "cleave together": oneness/wholeness is the goal, both in ourselves and in how we view others.

 

IMHO

[saskia_madding]

Generally speaking, differentiating the sexes is especially important today when equality is confused with sameness.

*How* one does it is less important. Why not with pens!

 

 

This blows my mind. I don't understand why people have this drive to divide everything into groups of us vs. them. Don't we have hundreds of years of history that show us how damaging that mentality it to everyone???

[Christi0469]

This blows my mind. I don't understand why people have this drive to divide everything into groups of us vs. them. Don't we have hundreds of years of history that show us how damaging that mentality it to everyone???

 

The short answer is it is simply human nature. Our brains are programmed to see pattern and we naturally tend to assign things into groups. We also naturally see differences between ourselves and others. It's what we do with that information that makes a difference.

 

I see nothing wrong with a woman preferring a slim pastel pen, nor do I see anything wrong with a woman preferring a hefty matte black pen. The same thing goes for men btw. It's all a matter of personal preference. Personally I like pretty colors and medium-sized pen. That should not disqualify me for entrance into the feminist club.

[saskia_madding]

It is definitely in our nature to be good at pattern recognition, but preferences attributed to those groups by some other scale than usefulness in terms of survival is NOT in our nature in the way you're using the phrase. So yes, we naturally group men and women into two groups because they look different, but that doesn't translate into one group preferring things that don't have to do with physiology (as you point out with your reference to liking different types of pens). Some women AND men like big pens, some women AND men like small pens. There is no gender bias on this, despite men and women being separate groups.

 

I don't really understand the idea of believing in personal preference as something that gets you excluded from a feminist club (which I don't believe in or support, by the way). In fact, NOT believing in personal preference is what does not jive with a feminist club (if there is one).

[jetsam]

 

 

This blows my mind. I don't understand why people have this drive to divide everything into groups of us vs. them. Don't we have hundreds of years of history that show us how damaging that mentality it to everyone???

Sorry, saskia-madding. I didn't mean to blow your mind.

Maybe *complementarity* would have been a better word that *differentiation*.

It doesn't have to be damaging. It's not meant to be damaging. Pens are not damaging. (I'm not being facetious.)

[terminal]

Ok, this might seem off-topic, but I think it's relevant: Legos.

 

Over the years Lego has struggled with this topic. On one hand, they want to remain gender neutral... on the other hand, most of their sets sell to boys. That's a fact, most of their sets sell to boys, and I'm not saying anything about why that is. So, through the years they have tried in various ways to MARKET products to girls. The most recent version is called "friends".

 

So this:

VERSUS this:

 

Lego changed more than just the mini-figures. They also changed the color scheme and made some new blocks (they made changes, and I'll leave it at that).

 

Now, these new sets were met with outrage from organizations like SPARK and Powered By Girl. Petitions were created, events were held. Meantime, Lego had created a home run. A lot of the protests singled out the 'friends' sets that sounded too "girly" and ignored sets like "Emma's karate class" and "Olivia's Invention Workshop". I'm not focusing on the details of the protests though, the fact remains that many people found it offensive that Lego released these sets.

 

So, if the argument is, girls should be allowed (encouraged?) to play with sets that have super heroes and robots and blue and black bricks so that, in the future, they can be engineers and things like that. The idea is that this kind of play will lead to working on computers and being comfortable in fields currently dominated by men.... and AND that no alternative should be provided because giving an alternative is also Lego crumbling to societal pressure.

 

On the other hand, where's the equality in that? What if I just LIKE pink better. Do I need to explain to a group of parents WHY I like pink better? Does it matter if it's a preference I gained from the way I was treated growing up or if it's something I was born with as part of my personality?

 

Now... fast forward 20 years. If BIC wants to make a pink pen, what's the harm? I'm not telling any women they can't buy their girls a ninja lego set.

[queenofpens]

Four generations of my family, male and female, prefer the plain basic building block Legos in the original crayon colors - now that's freedom because they can be made into anything you want.

 

I even have a book that shows how to build a pen holder and other useful desk accessories out of Legos.

 

With that said, I don't mind if other people - either male or female - prefer pink ones or black ones or ones that make pirate ships or ones that make friends.

 

CAD/CAM makes shorter production runs practical. Too few people seem to realize that means it can expand the number of choices available for personal preferences for everybody.

[TSherbs]

Ok, this might seem off-topic, but I think it's relevant: Legos.

 

Over the years Lego has struggled with this topic. On one hand, they want to remain gender neutral... on the other hand, most of their sets sell to boys. That's a fact, most of their sets sell to boys, and I'm not saying anything about why that is. So, through the years they have tried in various ways to MARKET products to girls. The most recent version is called "friends".

 

So this: Screen Shot 2013-07-18 at 11.14.14 AM.png

VERSUS this: Screen Shot 2013-07-18 at 11.15.13 AM.png

 

Lego changed more than just the mini-figures. They also changed the color scheme and made some new blocks (they made changes, and I'll leave it at that).

 

Now, these new sets were met with outrage from organizations like SPARK and Powered By Girl. Petitions were created, events were held. Meantime, Lego had created a home run. A lot of the protests singled out the 'friends' sets that sounded too "girly" and ignored sets like "Emma's karate class" and "Olivia's Invention Workshop". I'm not focusing on the details of the protests though, the fact remains that many people found it offensive that Lego released these sets.

 

So, if the argument is, girls should be allowed (encouraged?) to play with sets that have super heroes and robots and blue and black bricks so that, in the future, they can be engineers and things like that. The idea is that this kind of play will lead to working on computers and being comfortable in fields currently dominated by men.... and AND that no alternative should be provided because giving an alternative is also Lego crumbling to societal pressure.

 

On the other hand, where's the equality in that? What if I just LIKE pink better. Do I need to explain to a group of parents WHY I like pink better? Does it matter if it's a preference I gained from the way I was treated growing up or if it's something I was born with as part of my personality?

 

Now... fast forward 20 years. If BIC wants to make a pink pen, what's the harm? I'm not telling any women they can't buy their girls a ninja lego set.

Fair questions. The discussion here did not begin because anyone suggested that BIC should not make the choice available. The discussion began when some folks here wrote, more or less, Why does this matter?

 

So when you ask, What harm is done, that is a great question. And how we are taught and aculturated by gender, and whether or not we are ACTUALLY exercising a free choice for something healthy and liberating (as opposed to something unhealthy or confining) is an important discussion for some people. And not so important for others who may simply want a greater variety of goods available for purchase, whether they are harmful or not, and let the chips fall where they may.

 

Sometimes I am not so sure that we should simply say that since it sells a lot that it was not harmful (physically, or emotionally). Especially not when it involves the imaginative minds of children, which are so open and malleable and trusting.

[terminal]

Fair questions. The discussion here did not begin because anyone suggested that BIC should not make the choice available. The discussion began when some folks here wrote, more or less, Why does this matter?

 

So when you ask, What harm is done, that is a great question. And how we are taught and aculturated by gender, and whether or not we are ACTUALLY exercising a free choice for something healthy and liberating (as opposed to something unhealthy or confining) is an important discussion for some people. And not so important for others who may simply want a greater variety of goods available for purchase, whether they are harmful or not, and let the chips fall where they may.

 

Sometimes I am not so sure that we should simply say that since it sells a lot that it was not harmful (physically, or emotionally). Especially not when it involves the imaginative minds of children, which are so open and malleable and trusting.

 

Wow, yeah, very well said. Kind of a tangental question is: which is better, luring girls in to engineering by making the toys pink, or refusing to cave-in to the idea that everything for girls is pink (in 2013) and everything for boys is blue. To be clear, I'm definitely not arguing that selling a lot is any kind of proof...

[Christi0469]

I don't think that the products themselves matter as much how others present them or react to them. Little kids especially will play with toys with a lot of imagination. One of my nieces gave me a shoe wrapped in a blanket told me it was her baby. Kids pretend that books are birthday cakes and dolls are airplanes. Barbies can be made into superheroes and GI Joes into ballerinas. If you encourage this kind of play the kids will continue to think out of the box with their toys, at least until someone "helpfully" tells them that's not how you play with that.

 

The roots of gender identity go much deeper than pink and blue molded plastic.

[amberleadavis]

Cartier - Thin

[TSherbs]

christi and terminal: you both make great points

 

My only problem with what have here been called some of the more feminine styles of fountain pen is that they are not large enough for my hand or I cannot afford them. Some of them are just beautiful in design and pattern.

 

Interestingly, in my classroom, it is my male students who more often ask me to borrow the fountain pens that I have with me, but perhaps this is because I am male also (and they feel more comfortable making the request).

[line]

Like many other fountain pen enthusiasts, I have more than one pen. I mostly buy pens because of their nib, not because of their design. The reason why I don't focus on design is that I find most fountain pens with interesting gold nibs quite boring (black resin, BHCR, cigar shape,...). I have given up finding "jewels". A few modern pens are beautiful, though, but they are often too expensive for me.

 

I like the idea of having ladies pens. Of course I can live with gender neutral pens or "masculine" pens. I do now. We could make everything gender neutral if we wanted. There are reasons why we make ladies jewelry, ladies perfume, ladies purses and so on. Because we like it. Because some of us buy it. I don't understand why people get angry because some of us wish for feminine fountain pens! You are free to buy whatever pen you want, provided they actually are made. I would buy ladies pens.

[amk]

Just made a visit to the Parker pen site to check up some facts on a recent pen, and thought I'd try out the Parker Pen Chooser.

 

Guess what? First question: are you male or female?

 

So I went through twice, giving all the same answers EXCEPT for my gender.

 

Guess what? Completely different answers. Woman gets a 5th, man gets a Duofold.

 

Anyway, Parker completely screwed up both times by suggesting (1) the monstrosity and (2) a ballpoint.

 

Wonder if the Pen Chooser ever suggests a fountain pen?

[msnovtue]

Umm...I am a (middle aged) chick. I don't want a "girly" pen, thank you. I do want a classy, beautiful, elegant pen. I personally think you can't go wrong with a Souveran-that said, I prefer the blue & red stripes. And the ruby red SE is a truly stunning. If you're looking for a slim pen, I also recommend Caran d'Ache-I have a beautiful one in blue Chinese lacquer.

 

However, this probably my "girliest" pen, due to the bling factor....I do love the sparkly stuff.

 

http://www.pelikan.com/pulse/Pulsar/en_US.FWI.displayShop.93659./fire

[aawhite]

I was born in 1959 and I tend collect memorabilia from that year.

 

Among other things, I collect Barbie 50th Anniversary Edition dolls. When I was in Madrid, I found a Barbie 50th Anniversary Special Edition fountain pen and ball pen set made by Inoxcrom. I had to buy it.

 

The pens are very slim. The fountain pen nib produces a fine line and is smooth writer with some feedback. The body and cap are made of steel but very light (thin cross section).

[Scrawler]

I cannot find the insistence in this thread that pens cannot be designed for a gender. There were a few posts that suggested that pens can be genderless, which seems to be the vast majority of the market. To assume the default is masculine is a bit of a stretch, and those that try to appeal very directly to machismo like that Montegrappa Stallone monstrosity get very little appreciation around here. Most depend on relatively simple designs and "safe" color themes to avoid alienating segments of their possible customer base...it is not because the generic pen aesthetic is inherently masculine.

 

Is it simply a size issue? There are quite a lot of smaller FPs, and there used to be even more when they were actually made to be used in the mass market. They were often advertised in exactly the same sexist language this thread likes to use (let's just confiscate the mancard of any boy who likes a Chalana, shall we?).

 

There are many aesthetic niches that are poorly represented. I'd say "girly" pens (which I suspect is a gendered stereotype produced and enforced by male-driven systems) enjoy a better chunk of the market than do ones that pander to a flamboyantly "masculine" crowd.

I, as a father of a formerly teenaged daughter know full well that there are people out there actively trying to sell to girls. They show them things that they imagine will appeal, and reinforce stereotypes of what girls should be. There is no doubt that an active effort has been made to define girls and women, so that they can be sold to.

 

Remember this?

 

What are little boys made of?

What are little boys made of?

Frogs and snails and puppy-dog's tails,

And that are little boys made of.

 

What are little girls made of?

What are little girls made of?

Sugar and spice and all that's nice,

And that are little girls made of.

 

What are young men made of?

What are young men made of?

Sighs and leers, and crocodile tears,

And that are young men made of.

 

What are young women made of?

What are young women made of?

Ribbons and laces, and sweet pretty faces,

And that are young women made of.

 

It underlies the English Victorian attitude, and that is what people have learned to sell to.

 

By the time they are of age to buy a fountain pen, many have accepted a "pink and frilly" motif. From this some pen makers produced pens like Waterman Audace

 

http://www.google.ca/imgres?client=firefox-a&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1355&bih=1034&tbm=isch&tbnid=dym80m_eylVvcM:&imgrefurl=http://desktoppin.com/pen/waterman/audace.htm&docid=nd-G5159nsrajM&imgurl=http://desktoppin.com/images/pen/waterman/audace/w-audace-l.jpg&w=600&h=430&ei=Fk_wUY2vEfG74AP7iIGQDw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:11,s:0,i:112&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=190&tbnw=257&start=0&ndsp=29&tx=85&ty=99

 

 

and Sailor Hello Kitty.

 

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTVMHwoXUWZwl_BCHfcNyzYeaEZvEgNWHEhUpGyJHVNi5VTPouVw

 

I happen to like these pens, as much as for what they are, as I appreciate the attitude that went into creating them, and the emotions that caused young ladies to buy them. Oh yes, and I would love to be able to wield a Stallone Chaos pen.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Scrawler

[Scrawler]

Just made a visit to the Parker pen site to check up some facts on a recent pen, and thought I'd try out the Parker Pen Chooser.

 

Guess what? First question: are you male or female?

 

So I went through twice, giving all the same answers EXCEPT for my gender.

 

Guess what? Completely different answers. Woman gets a 5th, man gets a Duofold.

 

Anyway, Parker completely screwed up both times by suggesting (1) the monstrosity and (2) a ballpoint.

 

Wonder if the Pen Chooser ever suggests a fountain pen?

I tried it and answered everything honestly except that I identified as female and it recommended this:

 

http://www.parkerpen.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/PenChooserResultsView?catalogId=10051&langId=-1&storeId=10151&productId=11064&attr=11630&attr=11631

 

A Duofold. A pen that I might have thought of as directed at men.

[terminal]

 

Bearing this in mind, readers should treat with extreme scepticism those evangelists who draw on supposed sex-related brain differences to support their claims about the need for gendered educational practices. It’s also important to remember that behavioural differences between the sexes are rarely as fixed as is often made out in the media...[snip]... Whilst we should be cautious about how we interpret sex-related brain differences (Cordelia Fine reminds us that “the male brain is like nothing in the world so much as a female brain”), it’s important not to take political correctness too far and deny that differences do exist.

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-myths/201207/two-myths-and-three-facts-about-the-differences-in-men-and-womens-brains

[TSherbs]

 

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/brain-myths/201207/two-myths-and-three-facts-about-the-differences-in-men-and-womens-brains

interesting article, so far as it goes