Cute Pens For Us Girls!

[kronos77]

Most of the evidence against color preference according to sex seems to be stuck in one era, that being the 19th century. Humanity didn't begin in 1800. Most of these bits of evidence deal with preferences among male and female children, not taking into account the possible differences between men and women. Maybe dressing little boys in pink encouraged them to want to grow into men so they could shed their pink outfits. This might explain why we have men in extended adoloesence into their 50s. The theory doesn't however, explain the same phenomenon we see in women today who won't grow up.

 

There have been some scientific studies showing different color preferences according to sex. I am not Mr. Social Science, nor do I want to be, but these findings shouldn't be ignored. As Charlie Chan said, "Wheel of life have many spoke."

 

I have forgotten more about military history and uniforms than most people will ever know. I can't recall much in the way of pink uniforms, except as a trim color or on regimental flags. In some cases, in the Seven Years War, there were some pink pants worn by a regiment or two, but I can't recall which. Blue, red, yellow, green, white, grey, brown, tan,purple (possibly pinkish) are most commonly found. Scarlet is sometimes refered to as pink, and that is worth looking at, but overall, pink doesn't appear to be associated with the masculine activity of warfare.

 

I don't think talk about "social constructs" is all that productive in this case. I personally believe in a human nature and a natural order to the world, but I also recognize that many elements of our world are not brought about by a fixed pattern of behavior. Color association with sex may be one of those societally constructed things. So? In the absence of custom and tradition there is madness. This constructs are necessary. This has always been known. Deconstructing society is child's game and a fool's one as well. So the color and sex relationship may be arbitrary. It may be worth noting. It isn't worth crying like a girl over it.

 

Unlike color, pen shape doesn't seem to have much relation to sex. If you had tubular pens circular pens, maybe, but that would be tough biomechanically. Take away the names (Princess Grace), the colors (pink), and the logos (female anime characters) and I bet nobody would associate those pens marketed to women or girls as feminine based on their shape. The general pen shape is what it is and we all are accustomed to using it and seein it used by everyone.

 

Fountain pens do however sometimes have gender: Feminine in Russia and Italian, Masculine in German. Nothing in English or Chinese, two languages that don't assign gender to nouns.

Edited June 24, 2013 by kronos77

[flyingfox]

Aside the dreaded "marketing pressure," exposure to an object by any means can create desire.

 

Case in point... I cannot stop drooling over the gorgeous little Rosetta Napoleon... :puddle:

Feminine or girly or whatever, it is so beautiful. Perfect shade of purple, my fav color... it'd fit right in with my collection...

[TSherbs]

.... Nothing in English or Chinese, two languages that don't assign gender to nouns.

I don't know about Chinese, but this is only true grammatically of English. But many many words in English have strong gender associations through etymology and connotation. Right, "Dude"?

 

And I consider the "deconstruction of society" to be an immensely important human activity, one that, at times, can elevate us to our most beautiful and loving and compassionate selves.

[kronos77]

I don't know about Chinese, but this is only true grammatically of English. But many many words in English have strong gender associations through etymology and connotation. Right, "Dude"?

 

And I consider the "deconstruction of society" to be an immensely important human activity, one that, at times, can elevate us to our most beautiful and loving and compassionate selves.

No. You completely miss the point. Gender is a grammatical term. It is another term for noun classes. There are no genders for English nouns. English nouns may refer to one sex or another, but the have no gender.

 

As for the deconstruction of society, if you understand what you are saying then you are a disturbed person. I will assume you are simply misunderstandig issue.

[TSherbs]

No. You completely miss the point. Gender is a grammatical term. It is another term for noun classes. There are no genders for English nouns. English nouns may refer to one sex or another, but the have no gender.

 

As for the deconstruction of society, if you understand what you are saying then you are a disturbed person. I will assume you are simply misunderstandig issue.

I didn't miss your point. I simply added on to it, pointing out that English has a way of incorporating "gender" into its language in a different way. I am a teacher of grammar, by the way. I certainly understood your point, and I know all about language (English, that is). Are you claiming that English has no elements of gender incorporated into it? Should we start with the etymology of the word "woman"? Or, more relevant to this forum, "penmanship"?

[kronos77]

I didn't miss your point. I simply added on to it, pointing out that English has a way of incorporating "gender" into its language in a different way. I am a teacher of grammar, by the way. I certainly understood your point, and I know all about language (English, that is). Are you claiming that English has no elements of gender incorporated into it? Should we start with the etymology of the word "woman"? Or, more relevant to this forum, "penmanship"?

The point again: The word "gender" is a grammatical term. It doesn't have anything to do with sex. It defines noun classes. Noun classes are not about sex. Masculine, feminine and neuter are terms of convenience. There is no relation between a noun's gender and actual sex. I might contradict myself by saying that in modern standardized languages, the powers that be who went about setting standards, may have been influenced in some cases by the words association with sex, but this would be a very recent development. Look at how gender is assigned diferently to different nouns even in the Indo European language group. For that matter, it even differs at times among dialects of the same language, I am told.

 

Outside the Indo-European language family, the masculine-femine-neuter labels break down as some languages have a large number of noun classes that can't be defined within that system.

 

As I am getting way of topic, let me simply say that using the grammatical term "gender" to describe sex, biologically or socially, is a late 20th century development, done with a specific agenda in mind. I will say no more.

[Lisya72]

Count me in the, "larger pens, please," category. In my carrying case today, I have a blue Vac700, a Lapis Inferno (blue) Ahab, a turquoise Ahab, a blue Pelikano, a black Hero and a black TWSBI Mini that I can only use posted. My biggest problem with marketing aimed at women is that too many marketing firms aren't actually paying attention to what women want. They just, "pink it and shrink it," and slap a, "for her," label on it. Then again, it's possible that I think the generalization doesn't work because it doesn't work for me. Maybe it is accurate - I'd find the research interesting.

 

I just generally don't like putting women in a separate group unless there's a good reason for it, and I'm not convinced that we need our own class of writing instruments.

[TSherbs]

The point again: The word "gender" is a grammatical term.

Sometimes, but not always. And not in English.

 

And "gender", in English, certainly has had to do with male and female sex, and for a long time now. Here is the entry from the etymological dictionary, on the history of the word "gender" in English:

 

<<gender (n.) http://www.etymonline.com/graphics/dictionary.gif c.1300, "kind, sort, class," from Old French gendre (12c., Modern French genre), from stem of Latin genus (genitive generis) "race, stock, family; kind, rank, order; species," also (male or female) "sex" (see genus) and used to translate Aristotle's Greek grammatical term genos.

 

The grammatical sense is attested in English from late 14c.; the male-or-female sense from early 15c. As sex took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be the common word used for "sex of a human being," often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963.>>

 

 

I only chewed on the bone that you tossed out there because you seemed to be claiming that the idea of gender in English is a canard. As I noted, ONLY grammatically is there no "gender" in English. But certainly in etymology and in meaning and in connotation, the English language is loaded with genderized patterns. Even the word "gender" has ALSO meant "sex" from as long ago as the "early 15th century." That is 6 centuries ago.

Edited June 25, 2013 by TSherbs

[georges zaslavsky]

Omas, Delta, Krone and Montegrappa have also nice offerings for women

Edited June 26, 2013 by georges zaslavsky

[dorothynotgale]

Sometimes, but not always. And not in English.

 

And "gender", in English, certainly has had to do with male and female sex, and for a long time now. Here is the entry from the etymological dictionary, on the history of the word "gender" in English:

 

<<gender (n.) http://www.etymonline.com/graphics/dictionary.gif c.1300, "kind, sort, class," from Old French gendre (12c., Modern French genre), from stem of Latin genus (genitive generis) "race, stock, family; kind, rank, order; species," also (male or female) "sex" (see genus) and used to translate Aristotle's Greek grammatical term genos.

 

The grammatical sense is attested in English from late 14c.; the male-or-female sense from early 15c. As sex took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be the common word used for "sex of a human being," often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963.>>

 

 

I only chewed on the bone that you tossed out there because you seemed to be claiming that the idea of gender in English is a canard. As I noted, ONLY grammatically is there no "gender" in English. But certainly in etymology and in meaning and in connotation, the English language is loaded with genderized patterns. Even the word "gender" has ALSO meant "sex" from as long ago as the "early 15th century." That is 6 centuries ago.

I'm not a teacher of grammar, but I am a copy editor. I agree that gender is totally a thing in the structure English, it's just not as basic as suffixes. Not to mention that recent developments in nuance still count as legitimate linguistic growth/mutation.

 

TBH, I think we've got a lost cause here. Kronos77 feels comfortable gendering (sexing, by his logic?) colors such as Yama Budo based on whether people might "laugh at" him for using them, yet is not comfortable identifying that as a gender role issue rather than a "sex" issue.

[TSherbs]

My wife loves her red Lamy Safari (a gift from me, and the only fp she uses). <shrug> . Strokes for folks.

[hbquikcomjamesl]

Well, when I bought Rev'd Sarah (who'd earlier expressed an interest in my FPs, when I'd loaned her one, to sign a card for an amputee neighbor) a FP, in honor of her first assignment as Pastor, I got her a PP "Regal," and a supply of ink (both cartridges and a bottle, so she could experience both, and decide for herself what she found more convenient). (And NO, I am NOT on the payroll at HisNibs.)

[flyingfox]

Look at how gender is assigned diferently to different nouns even in the Indo European language group. For that matter, it even differs at times among dialects of the same language, I am told.

 

Back when the iPad first came out, many of the French speakers around me were calling it "la iPad" i.e. feminine. It made sense to me, because, well, it is a... "pad." But then the trend shifted to "le" for no reason (which, after all, is consistent with most other French nouns anyway.) I wonder what it has officially settled to... and who gets to ultimately decide the gender of the nouns of the things that are recent inventions...

[Cyber6]

That reminds me of this story....

 

 

A Spanish teacher was explaining to her class that in Spanish, unlike English, nouns are designated as either masculine or feminine.

"House,'' for instance, is feminine: ''la casa.'' ''Pencil,'' however, is masculine: "el lapiz.''
A student asked, ''What gender is 'computer'?''

Instead of giving the answer, the teacher split the class into two groups, male and female, and asked them
to decide for themselves whether 'computer'' should be a masculine or a feminine noun.
Each group was asked to give four reasons for its recommendation.

The men's group decided that ''computer'' should
definitely be of the feminine gender (''la computadora'') because:

1. No one but their creator understands their internal logic;

2. The native language they use to communicate with other computers is incomprehensible to everyone else;

3. Even the smallest mistakes are stored in long term memory for possible later retrieval; and

4. As soon as you make a commitment to one, you find yourself spending half your paycheck on accessories for it.

 

The women's group, however, concluded that computers
should be masculine (''el computador'') because:

1. In order to do anything with them, you have to turn them on;

2. They have a lot of data but still can't think for themselves;

3. They are supposed to help you solve problems, but half the time they ARE the problem; and

4. As soon as you commit to one, you realize that if you had waited a little longer, you could have gotten a better model.

 

[Albertine]

Most of the evidence against color preference according to sex seems to be stuck in one era, that being the 19th century. Humanity didn't begin in 1800. Most of these bits of evidence deal with preferences among male and female children, not taking into account the possible differences between men and women. Maybe dressing little boys in pink encouraged them to want to grow into men so they could shed their pink outfits. This might explain why we have men in extended adoloesence into their 50s. The theory doesn't however, explain the same phenomenon we see in women today who won't grow up.

 

There have been some scientific studies showing different color preferences according to sex. I am not Mr. Social Science, nor do I want to be, but these findings shouldn't be ignored. As Charlie Chan said, "Wheel of life have many spoke."

 

[...snip...]

 

I have forgotten more about military history and uniforms than most people will ever know. I can't recall much in the way of pink uniforms, except as a trim color or on regimental flags. In some cases, in the Seven Years War, there were some pink pants worn by a regiment or two, but I can't recall which. Blue, red, yellow, green, white, grey, brown, tan,purple (possibly pinkish) are most commonly found. Scarlet is sometimes refered to as pink, and that is worth looking at, but overall, pink doesn't appear to be associated with the masculine activity of warfare.

 

 

 

This is because aniline chemical dyes weren't invented until the mid-19th century. Before the mid-19th century, all dyes were natural. That reduced the range of available colors drastically.

 

Very few pure, bold colors could be dyed into cloth. Bright colors (magentas, turquoise) would have been utterly impossible. Acid colors. Etc.

 

All clothes would have been subject to the same constraints. Uniforms and ballgowns alike. (Though some fabrics took dyes better than others; 'Prussian blue' was an early, deep blue, navyish, that worked better in silk than other fabrics).

[inkstainedruth]

That reminds me of this story....

 

 

A Spanish teacher was explaining to her class that in Spanish, unlike English, nouns are designated as either masculine or feminine.

 

"House,'' for instance, is feminine: ''la casa.'' ''Pencil,'' however, is masculine: "el lapiz.''

A student asked, ''What gender is 'computer'?''

 

Instead of giving the answer, the teacher split the class into two groups, male and female, and asked them

to decide for themselves whether 'computer'' should be a masculine or a feminine noun.

Each group was asked to give four reasons for its recommendation.

 

The men's group decided that ''computer'' should

definitely be of the feminine gender (''la computadora'') because:

 

1. No one but their creator understands their internal logic;

 

2. The native language they use to communicate with other computers is incomprehensible to everyone else;

 

3. Even the smallest mistakes are stored in long term memory for possible later retrieval; and

 

4. As soon as you make a commitment to one, you find yourself spending half your paycheck on accessories for it.

 

The women's group, however, concluded that computers

should be masculine (''el computador'') because:

1. In order to do anything with them, you have to turn them on;

 

2. They have a lot of data but still can't think for themselves;

 

3. They are supposed to help you solve problems, but half the time they ARE the problem; and

 

4. As soon as you commit to one, you realize that if you had waited a little longer, you could have gotten a better model.

 

Most excellent!

Too bad it wasn't a German class -- German has masculine, feminine *and* neuter nouns; and gender of said nouns is occasionally sort of random: thus "die Katze" ("the cat") and "die Frau" ("the woman") are feminine, but "das Kätzchen" ("the kitten") and "das Mädchen ("the girl") are neuter because of the diminutive ending <-chen>.

Wonder what gender a German class would assign to a laptop....

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[bluesky]

I am male, however, I show all potential pen purchases to my wife.

 

She uses a Pink Vanishing point with rhodium trim.

Also a Pendleton point multicolored Rosetta, green/red ebonite Passaporto with italic nib,etc.

She thinks my Pilot Custom 845 is a beautiful pen although it is the typical " black/gold" fountain pen colors.

 

She does not use the beautiful chocolate gold sonnet FP (with interchangeable medium, medium italic and broad iitalic nibs) and rollerball set I purchased for her several years ago.

 

In other words she likes a variety of pens that are comfortable for her writing and fits the criteria of beautiful to her.

 

There are so many vintage and modern pens in such a variety of materials and colors available to women. I suspect one woman's cute or beautiful is not another women's cute or beautiful just like asking men for their definition of the ideal pen.

 

I would ask is what is cute to one woman cute to another? Is there a need for stereotypical male vs female pens? Certainly a poll of female fountain pen users would be helpful.

 

Best regards

bluesky

[Daisy25]

I don't think there's a need for stereotypical pens, just pens that show a range of style.

 

I'm a female, but I take my pink in small doses. I'm not big on frills. (Is it relevant that my idea of going all out on makeup is applying a little mascara and perhaps a touch of eyeshadow? And the number of times I go that far in a year I could count on one hand . . . )

 

I think the question of how gender impacts taste is fascinating. For the most part, I think of it as social conditioning and definitions, particularly of masculinity, but I could be wrong on that. I may not be "girly" as such, but I have a broader range of style that I like or feel comfortable in than my husband does. I can do floral fabric on occasion. It isn't unheard of to throw together a little linen and lace. When I look at the various types of sewing I do (mostly quilting and lots of little projects like book bags, book marks, pen wraps, etc), I can go anywhere from minimalist to contemporary to floral traditional. I can indulge a bit of cute overload now and then. If my husband and I are both in a fabric store, I'm going to find more fabrics to like than he does.

 

That said, for me the most gorgeous pen I ever held in my hand was a Lamy 2000. I love the style on that pen: clean lines with subtle textures and beautifully functional design. Would some people call that pen manly? I'd just call it the perfect meld of modernist aesthetic with functional design.

 

I think I'm saying that I may have a broader range of style available to me because I'm a woman. Or at least, by some societal standards I do. I think that is changing (yeah!), but for some men, it may still be an issue of whether something appears feminine. Now, would they possibly like something if they left social ideas on masculinity out of it? I don't know. For that, we need a poll of the men.

 

Hey, enquiring minds want to know.

[TSherbs]

I don't think there's a need for stereotypical pens, just pens that show a range of style.

 

I'm a female, but I take my pink in small doses. I'm not big on frills. (Is it relevant that my idea of going all out on makeup is applying a little mascara and perhaps a touch of eyeshadow? And the number of times I go that far in a year I could count on one hand . . . )

 

I think the question of how gender impacts taste is fascinating. For the most part, I think of it as social conditioning and definitions, particularly of masculinity, but I could be wrong on that. I may not be "girly" as such, but I have a broader range of style that I like or feel comfortable in than my husband does......<snip>

 

Hey, enquiring minds want to know.

I teach, and I have found that girls have a broader range of acceptable reading topics than boys. And it is not that girls read more (boys read as much, often just very different fare). Girls will flex more with a variety of reading topics; my male students have had a narrower range of interest and keep "in the closet" their occasional interest in "chick" stories. [this is not a vetted research conclusion, just my observations over 29 years of teaching].

[dorothynotgale]

I teach, and I have found that girls have a broader range of acceptable reading topics than boys. And it is not that girls read more (boys read as much, often just very different fare). Girls will flex more with a variety of reading topics; my male students have had a narrower range of interest and keep "in the closet" their occasional interest in "chick" stories. [this is not a vetted research conclusion, just my observations over 29 years of teaching].

I think a lot of that is the way "masculine" behaviors, interests, and styles are valued in society, versus "feminine" ones being looked down on. So a girl who likes pink and reads romance novels is "normal", and a girl who wears jeans and enjoys action movies is fun and cool (as long as she doesn't take it "too far"). Meanwhile, a boy who wears jeans and enjoys action movies is "normal", while a boy who likes pink and reads romance novels had better keep it under wraps.

 

It has its roots in sexism, and ultimately is unfair to everyone.