Stub Smoothing

[acolythe]

Not happy with my Pilot Su nib. Anything special that I should know about the technique for smoothing it?

[watch_art]

be sure the tines are lined up nicely first.

[fabrimedeiros]

Yes, first check the tines. Do you a loupe?

[acolythe]

Thanks I have done this. Having produced flat spots on previous nibs that I have smoothed , that should be an andvantage when one tried to smooth a stub, yes> And yes i have a loupe.

[MKIM97]

Drawing circles and lines on brown paper bags (as in sack lunch bags) seems to be a good way to smooth out nibs without wearing them down too much. I've done it occasionally to reduce the amount of tooth on my pens, but none of them have been stubs. YMMV.

[TimGirdler]

Drawing circles and lines on brown paper bags (as in sack lunch bags) seems to be a good way to smooth out nibs without wearing them down too much. I've done it occasionally to reduce the amount of tooth on my pens, but none of them have been stubs. YMMV.

PLEASE don't use a brown paper bag. Get the proper tools and learn the proper way to do things so that you'll end up helping your pens, not hurting them.

 

Tim

[TimGirdler]

Thanks I have done this. Having produced flat spots on previous nibs that I have smoothed , that should be an andvantage when one tried to smooth a stub, yes> And yes i have a loupe.

 

A flat-spot will be very detrimental to a stub.

 

Stubs should be smoothed in a specific way, and not like other nibs. If you smooth the stub as if it were a regular round nib, you run the risk of removing many of the writing characteristics of the stub.

 

Tim

[CoolFool]

Here's a nice video on nib smoothing by Brian Gray at Edison Pen Co. http://fpgeeks.com/2013/03/tweks-for-geeks-nib-tuning-and-smoothing-on-line-seminar/ He doesn't specifically address stubs, but maybe you'll enjoy it.

[MKIM97]

PLEASE don't use a brown paper bag. Get the proper tools and learn the proper way to do things so that you'll end up helping your pens, not hurting them.

 

Tim

 

Well, in hindsight, perhaps my original reply was not completely thought out. The OP wants to smooth a nib, whereas when I have used a brown paper bag it was just to very slightly reduce the amount of tooth. I understand that a paper bag is not the ideal tool for nib work, and I would never recommend it to be used for serious smoothing, which is why I take back my previous comment. And I hardly think a few 2-4 second intervals would cause harm to any nib.

[Bo Bo Olson]

PLEASE don't use a brown paper bag. Get the proper tools and learn the proper way to do things so that you'll end up helping your pens, not hurting them.

 

Tim

Wrong!!!! If dealing with vintage pens....

 

Modern and modern cheap nibs is a different question. There should be no micro-corrosion.

 

I still see trying a 'good quality' not hairy brown paper bag as a safe step to use before going to the more permanent micro-mesh. What you have "smoothed or ground" off is off for good.

The manufactured grind angle of the nib can be changed perhaps too easily.

 

When it comes to micro-mesh, the first question must be where do you hold the pen, high 45 degrees, right after the index finger's big knuckle, 40 degrees at the start of the web of the thumb, or at 35 degrees in the pit of the web of the thumb.

Most of my vintage pens can write an any of the three angles; I do have a couple that need a low hold in the pit of the thumb. I will not nor have I ever thought of changing that angle, the pen writes well set low in my hand.

 

When you start grinding away smoothing with micro-mesh that angle can be changed ....even if you don't want, if you don't take 'proper' care. That is more difficult to change with a brown paper bag in you would have to really work at it.

I don't know enough over nib geometry to know if the couple of pens I have that write low, were a company trait or if it was just a 'mistake' by the company nib grinder.

I find the quirk of the nib on that or those...could be two pens, could be three...I don't really mark that down on a chart, to be quite acceptable.

 

I would ask you to leave your old vintage nibs quirky, in perhaps some might like it 'original' than ground to the way you hold your pen. What you do with modern nibs, is your decision, that all your pens be as similar as your gel pen.

Ah, yes this is that pen that writes low...fine. I move the pen low, or if I have one that writes higher like a Kugle (ball) nib, then I hold it a bit higher than the start of the web of my thumb.

 

Mostly by me, because I have vintage standard and Medium-large pens, I post and use the 'forefinger up' method of grasping a pen. Therefore the weight of the posted pen decides at what of the three angles the pen is held.

I do find, unposted Large pens tend to be held higher by me than if I post it....there are times when I will post a heavier Large pen...that will set it in the pit of my thumb....a different writing angle. A good nib has more than one angle to hold it...IMO.

If you have ground by "smoothing" the writing angle, it could well be you have 'set' the pen to only one angle.

Easy to do with micro-mesh, almost impossible to do with a brown paper bag.

 

 

 

You do need a practice nib for micro-mesh; you do not need a practice nib for a high quality brown paper bag.

If you use a high quality brown paper bag, you don't end up with fuzz in the tines...cheap hairy bags are to be avoided as absolutely useless and fuzz makers.

 

The brown paper bag is great for removing micro-corrosion on pens that have sat in desks for decades or a generation or two. It will not make the nib 'butter smooth' if you absurdly require such a thing.

 

I like my pens good and smooth...ie no drag, which is a stage under 'too smooth to use on Clairefontain paper---butter smooth."

 

After making sure the tines are aligned with your 10-12-15X loupe.

I use 3-4-6 max fifteen second sets; and test between each set. Write normally, drawing circles left and right, squiggles up, down, and sideways while rotating the nib tip to prevent flat spots.

 

In that I'm only using a figure 8's for some 3 seconds in a set. I don't think that would cause baby bottom.

Old Grizz says, just doing figure 8's causes baby bottom. Do not just make figure 8's.

 

When I finger polish with semi-chrome and buff my pens, I am not interested in making the vintage pen look brand new. I am after a well maintained look.

 

I am not interested in 'butter smooth' either...if so, skip the brown paper bag and go directly to the much harsher no forgiveness micro-mesh.

 

With a brown paper bag, and if written in a normal lighter hand while rotating the nib there is less permanent problems than I read about folks using micro-mesh for the first time where they end up grinding a nib instead of smoothing off micro-corrosion. Well most are grinding a modern nib, not smoothing a vintage one.

 

I'm not a professional, I have smoothed to 'good and smooth' some 70 vintage nibs. My 3 modern pens required no brown paper bag.

I can see micro-mesh if you buy cheap rolled steel nib Chinese pens, that are not up to rolled steel Esterbrook quality.

 

I did have three vintage nibs that needed micro mesh.

 

Many change their minds about 'butter smooth' after a couple of years on the com....they go down a stage to good and smooth. It is something to think about when grinding your nib for the first time with micro-mesh.

Do you really 'need' butter smooth? Or is good and smooth with a bit of feel of the paper what you want.

There are some posters I respect that have been writing for decades or generations, who want only butter smooth. Good, they have the experience.

 

So why would some idiot want anything but 'butter smooth'?

Something to read up on, isn't it?

[TimGirdler]

 

Well, in hindsight, perhaps my original reply was not completely thought out. The OP wants to smooth a nib, whereas when I have used a brown paper bag it was just to very slightly reduce the amount of tooth. I understand that a paper bag is not the ideal tool for nib work, and I would never recommend it to be used for serious smoothing, which is why I take back my previous comment. And I hardly think a few 2-4 second intervals would cause harm to any nib.

 

I understand what you're saying. However, the paper bag's "grit" is not consistent enough for safely doing the work. Also, it depends on what type of nib you are working on. I've re-done a couple of hand-ground nibs for a few clients, and I have used my normal methods. However, some of the new stub nibs come from the makers with NO tipping material on them. If I were to use my normal methods, most non-tipped nibs would simply disappear!

 

A nib that has tipping material might not be damaged too much from the paper bag. However, the untipped nib might be easily and quickly destroyed.

 

Tim

[TimGirdler]

Wrong!!!! If dealing with vintage pens....

 

Modern and modern cheap nibs is a different question. There should be no micro-corrosion.

 

I still see trying a 'good quality' not hairy brown paper bag as a safe step to use before going to the more permanent micro-mesh. What you have "smoothed or ground" off is off for good.

The manufactured grind angle of the nib can be changed perhaps too easily.

 

No, it's not wrong--even with vintage pens.

 

Brown paper bags simply do not have the consistency of "grit" to be a precision tool.

 

When it comes to micro-mesh, the first question must be where do you hold the pen, high 45 degrees, right after the index finger's big knuckle, 40 degrees at the start of the web of the thumb, or at 35 degrees in the pit of the web of the thumb.

Most of my vintage pens can write an any of the three angles; I do have a couple that need a low hold in the pit of the thumb. I will not nor have I ever thought of changing that angle, the pen writes well set low in my hand.

 

But this question really creates so many more. Why would you smooth a pen that doesn't write well at all the angles (except for the Cursive and Crisp Italics)? A well-tuned, non-custom nib should work at low angles and high angles, and it should be just as smooth at all those angles.

 

When you start grinding away smoothing with micro-mesh that angle can be changed ....even if you don't want, if you don't take 'proper' care. That is more difficult to change with a brown paper bag in you would have to really work at it.

I don't know enough over nib geometry to know if the couple of pens I have that write low, were a company trait or if it was just a 'mistake' by the company nib grinder.

I find the quirk of the nib on that or those...could be two pens, could be three...I don't really mark that down on a chart, to be quite acceptable.

 

Micromesh doesn't "grind," per se. Sandpaper does.

 

I would ask you to leave your old vintage nibs quirky, in perhaps some might like it 'original' than ground to the way you hold your pen. What you do with modern nibs, is your decision, that all your pens be as similar as your gel pen.

Ah, yes this is that pen that writes low...fine. I move the pen low, or if I have one that writes higher like a Kugle (ball) nib, then I hold it a bit higher than the start of the web of my thumb.

 

Mostly by me, because I have vintage standard and Medium-large pens, I post and use the 'forefinger up' method of grasping a pen. Therefore the weight of the posted pen decides at what of the three angles the pen is held.

I do find, unposted Large pens tend to be held higher by me than if I post it....there are times when I will post a heavier Large pen...that will set it in the pit of my thumb....a different writing angle. A good nib has more than one angle to hold it...IMO.

If you have ground by "smoothing" the writing angle, it could well be you have 'set' the pen to only one angle.

Easy to do with micro-mesh, almost impossible to do with a brown paper bag.

The problem with vintage "quirky" nibs is that the "quirk" might have been worn into the nib by a heavy-handed person who wrote at a totally different angle to you. Fountain pens should be adjusted to the writer, not the writer to the pen. This is why there are oblique nibs, for example.

 

You do need a practice nib for micro-mesh; you do not need a practice nib for a high quality brown paper bag.

If you use a high quality brown paper bag, you don't end up with fuzz in the tines...cheap hairy bags are to be avoided as absolutely useless and fuzz makers.

 

The brown paper bag is great for removing micro-corrosion on pens that have sat in desks for decades or a generation or two. It will not make the nib 'butter smooth' if you absurdly require such a thing.

 

Again, the brown paper bag will not have the precision grit that you're looking for. The manufacturers of the bags do not do any quality control on the bags for their grit.

 

If there is a tool to be used for "micro corrosion" it is aluminum oxide lapping film. It is precise and will give you the same grit every time.

 

I like my pens good and smooth...ie no drag, which is a stage under 'too smooth to use on Clairefontain paper---butter smooth."

 

After making sure the tines are aligned with your 10-12-15X loupe.

I use 3-4-6 max fifteen second sets; and test between each set. Write normally, drawing circles left and right, squiggles up, down, and sideways while rotating the nib tip to prevent flat spots.

 

In that I'm only using a figure 8's for some 3 seconds in a set. I don't think that would cause baby bottom.

Old Grizz says, just doing figure 8's causes baby bottom. Do not just make figure 8's.

 

When I finger polish with semi-chrome and buff my pens, I am not interested in making the vintage pen look brand new. I am after a well maintained look.

 

I am not interested in 'butter smooth' either...if so, skip the brown paper bag and go directly to the much harsher no forgiveness micro-mesh.

 

With a brown paper bag, and if written in a normal lighter hand while rotating the nib there is less permanent problems than I read about folks using micro-mesh for the first time where they end up grinding a nib instead of smoothing off micro-corrosion. Well most are grinding a modern nib, not smoothing a vintage one.

 

What you are doing here, unfortunately, is wearing a foot into your nib so that your pens will write for you only. Of course, that is your prerogative. Even is there isn't a flat spot, there may be a foot--an area of a certain angle where the pen writes.

 

Only under RARE circumstances will I ever do an "8" or draw circles. It does create baby's bottom.

 

Ideally, the angle of the pen to the writing surface should change. Otherwise, you'll wear a foot, instead of making sure the pen will write well from 30-Degrees to 90-Degrees.

 

I'm not a professional, I have smoothed to 'good and smooth' some 70 vintage nibs. My 3 modern pens required no brown paper bag.

I can see micro-mesh if you buy cheap rolled steel nib Chinese pens, that are not up to rolled steel Esterbrook quality.

 

I did have three vintage nibs that needed micro mesh.

 

Many change their minds about 'butter smooth' after a couple of years on the com....they go down a stage to good and smooth. It is something to think about when grinding your nib for the first time with micro-mesh.

Do you really 'need' butter smooth? Or is good and smooth with a bit of feel of the paper what you want.

There are some posters I respect that have been writing for decades or generations, who want only butter smooth. Good, they have the experience.

 

So why would some idiot want anything but 'butter smooth'?

Something to read up on, isn't it?

 

People send me their pens so that I can smooth them. I'm paid for my services. My pen pedigree and my training are pretty reputable in that I did not learn my craft from an amateur and I did not teach myself.

 

Every nib is different, and, as you said, there are differences between the modern and vintage nibs. But, this reinforces the necessity for "standardized" tools. Micromesh and lapping film are precision tools. A brown paper bag has no precision in either its manufacture or application--simply because it wasn't intended to. A brown paper bag may be MUCH more harsh on a nib than a stick of 12,000 grit micromesh. On the other hand, it may be much more easy on the nib. There simply is no way to tell.

 

As I mentioned earlier, it is your prerogative how you treat and tune your own pens. That's not the issue. However, for those who do this on a regular basis and have clients who pay them to do nib tuning and smoothing, the brown paper bag, and the technique you've described here are not recommended.

 

Tim

 

 

 

Edited for spacing issues, mostly.

Edited June 14, 2013 by TimGirdler

[Richard]

Wrong!!!! If dealing with vintage pens....

 

 

I'm sorry, Bo Bo, but Tim is right. The brown paper bag is an urban legend that deserves to be put to rest, and it doesn't matter whether you are talking about new nibs or old ones. Why? Here are some reasons:

1. The quality of the brown paper is not predictable; it can be anything from harmless to destructive depending on what inclusions it contains.
2. If it's harmless, what happens is that particles of the paper are worn off and jammed into the microscopic interstices of the nib's tipping material, creating an artificial and temporary smoothness. They will work out again, and you'll be right back where you started.
3. If it's destructive, what happens is that metal and stone particles from the paper's recycled content can make some pretty nasty scratches in the tipping material.

The right way to smooth nibs is to use controllable, predictable materials (fresh lapping films, sandpapers, and buff sticks) in a controllable, predictable fashion. Using "found" materials is the road to disaster.

 

By the way, as Tim says, he did not learn his craft from an amateur, and he did not teach himself. I trained him. And he's good at what he does.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Richard

[MKIM97]

Thank you for the information regarding the potential dangers of the brown paper bag, but if this method is so undesirable, shouldn't this knowledge be more widespread? This technique seems to be awfully popular and misunderstood.

[acolythe]

man that is high praise from Mr. Binder. I'd be beaming

[TimGirdler]

Richard has been, and continues to be, very kind to me. Even outside of his teaching and mentoring, I count him as one of my dearest friends.

 

Tim

[jjlax10]

There is a lot of bad advice out there as far as nibs go.

[Bo Bo Olson]

I've read how lots of people on this com used micro-mesh and need to send the ruin in to a professional for re-tipping. Ham fisted is ham fisted.

 

I guess there are just as many who don’t read the instructions, and try to grind a modern nib butter smooth; using a good quality brown paper bag.. Some one told me he’d used a ‘hairy’ paper bag to smooth; and it was horrible with all the lint in the nib slit …I realized there was a generation gap. I who grew up with paper bags can tell a good one from a bad one at a distance. So after that I said use a ‘good’ quality paper bag.

As I always said, the brown paper bag is good for an old sat in a desk for decades vintage pen’s, micro-corrosion/’iridium’-rust. and stop as soon as the pen writes smoothly; for me with out drag nor scratch; good and smooth.

 

What is toothy is a different question, depends on an experience level, and is not part of this discussion.

 

12,000 grit is good for making butter smooth. The number was thrown around when said a paper bag is so much rougher…. How much rougher 10,000? 8,000 ? The other grits of micro-mesh. Rougher than a good smooth Arkansas stone…no. Absolutely not!!!

Do not use a stone on your nib unless trained, like a gold smith I know She learned to grind nibs on stones in the DDR as part of her gold smith training.

 

In the last time, last year I was in the States, I did not see any brown paper bags…nothing but nothing but round clunky non supporting; bang and squish bowling ball sized plastic bags.

 

Modern ‘good’ quality paper bags, are 3^th class to the best paper bags I saw when bagging groceries as a kid back in the BC..before computer. The best were two thin smooth bags already glued double. Then there was one that was smooth but thicker, that one seldom had to double. The paper bag that I have today, is 3^rd class; has to be doubled for a basic 30-40pound bag and is rougher than the best. That was much better than the 4^th almost hairy quality that cheap Commissary officers tried to pass off on the customers. So cheap that doubling was not a sure way to make a square bag and transport. Hairy bags are 5th class.

 

For general info, in that paper bags are scarce and now 'odd'. Paper handle handled paper bags are not trustworthy for heavier loads, twine handles are best for carrying things in good paper bags. Twine handled bags were and are first class for carrying.

 

How many paper bags have you tested Richard?

Richard might know what a good paper bag looks like. Tim is too young.

 

The bottom line first forbid good paper bags, then paper bags; I will be sending as asked a decent brown paper bag to a friend who asked for one. He lives in a paper bag deprived land.

 

For professionals or anyone else grinding a nib to butter smooth, I can see a brown paper bag as useless. I am not interested in ‘butter slide off Clairefontaine smooth’. I do have three modern butter smooth nibbed pens; one is back in the box, the others get less use than many other pens I have. I like good and smooth; the level under butter smooth. To each his own.

 

The reason it took me so long to get micro-mesh, was I didn’t need it; out side of three pens…and they didn’t jump out of the hat all at once either.

I took the mesh set I bought from Richard and smoothed up the three nibs that the brown paper bag didn't cure..Worked fine....I did have to use much, much more care than I normally do. I was working with strange grinding stuff.

 

It did anger me a bit, when Richard accused me of grinding the low hold of a nib I mentioned my self, with a brown paper bag.

No, I did not, and the pen being NOS was not an old pen that some one wrote for a generation wearing it into his hand. It sat unused for close to fifty-fifty five years developing ‘iridium’ rust/micro-corrosion.

 

I have two of the no name ‘Clippers’; with semi-flex nibs with the little Connie/Super Constellation stamped on them. One likes a low hold; the other is as Richard says, is able to be held at all angles. If I had been grinding the nib to “fit my own hand”, all of my pens would have an angle where the pen must be held….to ‘my Hand’.

I was not trying to grind a nib to fit my Hand. I was removing rust.

 

 

I took great care not to do anything like that, with max rotation of the nib while smoothing away the ‘rust’.

 

A nib meister can and do grind the nib to your Hand. I have not been to a pen show, have read about it often. The nibmeister wants to see how you hold your pen and write with it. It was said send a Video, and a sheet of paper showing your writing to your nib meister so he can see how you hold your pen, so he can grind it to your hand.

That is different than general pen tuning Richard gives to pens you buy from him. Grinding to fit, is custom work; where the nib is ground to fit the hold of the customer, not everyone else in the world.

Hummm...if buying a used pen, that has been customized, I'd think of checking how the seller holds his pen, it might be much different than the way you hold your. General smoothing would be no problem.

 

Well, I do mostly old German pens, many of the very flat 'stubbish', pens that I've 'smoothed' away the drag or a touch of scratch' don't have much iridium to start with. So I have always used extreme care; from my view in a micro-mesh poor land. There was dammed little ‘iridium’ on those pens to start with. When I was ‘noobie’ I’d thought some idiot had taken the nibs to files, or a stone …because they did not have the ‘American’ bump under them that I was use to seeing. The ones from the ‘60’s did have the ‘American’ bump on the whole.

 

What is expensive? To some one who can afford the very expensive compared to a generation ago price of cocktails, and the price don’t shock them, micro-mesh is cheap.

Then you do need one of those professional goggle loupes with built in flashlight, in it is so much easier than grind, look-look; grind look-look-look, with your 10X loupe. And 10X is a little small, eh?

 

Defiantly need that $40-60 book on Nib Geometry when fiddling with micro-mesh; so you can regrind the angle you screwed up; and know what the angle is supposed to be and why. Don’t have that book, will get is some day….Why I might even think about grinding my nibs to fit if I had that book; instead of just removing rust as I do now.

 

Now that I think about it of course you need your home protection set of micro-mesh, who knows how the owner before you smoothed his nib with micro-mesh to fit his hand....with or with out knowing it.

 

I’m sure there are light handed folks using micro-mesh; as light as I have with a brown paper bag.

I don’t need a loupe when removing a bit of rust/micro-corrosion from a vintage pen. I rotate the nib in all angles, ‘lightly’ because I had read you can make flat spots.

I don’t want to do anything special….in fact I never even look at the tipping after checking to see it is aligned….like one must with micro-mesh….one must always check very, very often the results of grinding with micro-mesh.

 

I do a rotated fifteen second set, write on a sheet of normal paper. Do another set and write. It seldom takes more than 4 sets, some times only need 3 sets, seldom need 6 sets. If the nib has that much problems, then it is time to go to micro-mesh.

 

A paper bag has 7 sides, and after a year or so and you have bought enough vintage pens , you can cut it open and use the inside. A good quality paper bag cost me €0.10.

 

Mail from the States to Germany is extremely expensive. From Germany to the US, cheap.

A nice poster from Belgium, found micro-mesh in his own country, that he drove half way across to buy some.

Back a few years ago when ‘Typhoon?’ I think the name of the company was, that sold pen repair tools, sacs and micro-mesh. Total cost of shipping was too much for what I wanted, then. I wanted more than just a package of micro-mesh.

I did get the pen flush, hand cleaner (Which I have not needed.) and micro-mesh set, from Richard. I had business in the States and had it shipped to my cheap as I could find motel. $35 is what it cost, had I let Richard ship it to me in Germany mailing was $35, the same cost as the items.

I believe the cost of mailing just the micro-mesh set was the cost of the item; so I delayed 3/4ths a year knowing I was going to the states. There was no absolute need in it was only three pens, that could not wait so long.

 

My first thought when I looked at that package of micro-mesh and buff sticks was I have to be very thrifty with its use. In that, I can do what I need with a brown paper bag, mostly; micro-mesh is for me for trouble nibs. The set should last me ages.

 

Can you use a good quality, long lasting paper bag and save money. Of Course. If you are just removing rust or a tad of drag, a touch of scratch...remember often you can remove scratch by realigning your nib.

 

If you have a modern pen and you want to grind it to be butter smooth, use with great care, micro-mesh. A good quality brown paper is a poor tool, to make nibs butter smooth.

 

If you have a vintage pen and want to just remove the iridium rust, you can use a good quality brown paper bag. If done properly with much rust removing rotation, you do not change the tipping’s geometry. Removal of the ‘rust’ will give you good and smooth.

Do have a light hand with either. If you don’t use a very, very light hand, especially with micro-mesh you can send it in for repair or re-tipping.

 

IMO which don’t count in I am not a ‘professional’ grinding a nib to fit some one’s Hand, I prefer the brown paper bag for vintage ‘rust’ removal.

 

With micro-mesh you can make your own cursive italic or stub tips on your nibs. You cannot do that with a brown paper bag…so do take lots of care with micro-mesh, or you might have to learn how to do that before you planned.

 

 

An alternative to a brown paper bag is a round mirror with rim (need the rim to keep the water on top of the mirror)…look for an old hand mirror the next time you are at a flea market. I’ll do that my self, in my wife would be angry if I took her little round mirror and started using it for rust removal of my pens. There are many grounds for divorce. I don’t want to find a new one.

A bit of water on the mirror and off you go. Back in WW2, when the Gillette ‘blue’ blades were rationed, civilians re-sharpened their ‘blue blades’ on the bath room mirror or the inside of a glass. Yep, that would be best, you’d never have to spend 10¢ again on a paper bag to touch up your nib.

 

Hummm. I wonder if that is 12,000 grit or better?

 

 

Edited June 17, 2013 by Bo Bo Olson

[jjlax10]

What does this mean: "Ham fisted is ham fisted." ?

[watch_art]

Ham fisted = no fine motor skills. I guess?