An Enthusiast’s Collection – Part 2

[idazle]

Pavoni,

 

Your overview of MB "wartime" period and sub-periods is just great and confirms what some of us think, namely that you should give serious consideration to publish a booklet on vintage piston-filler Montblancs and Sonnecken FPs.

 

I've checked your post 61 on the different "transitional" cap bands:

 

 

Hi Daynix, thank you for posting your transitional pen.

 

[...]

 

There are around four types of cap band configuration of either:

1. Thin gold band, thick flat gold band without markings, thin gold band (as in the MB 134 above) or
2. 
   
3. Thin gold band, thick gold band with ‘Meisterstuck’ engraved, thin gold band (as in the MB 136 above); or
4. 
   
5. Milled band (as in wartime version), thick gold band with ‘Meisterstuck’ engraved, milled band; or
6. 
   
7. A single thick flat gold band without markings (an unattractive look).
8. 
   

 

I`ve been browsing the Penboard.de site but haven't been able to spot a pen with the fourth type of cap band mentioned in your post above. Anyone to contribute a pic of one?

 

[...]

 

If we are to accept the above, then idazle’s pen could be viewed as having a pre-war barrel (1937-1943) with a wartime/post-war steel nib (1939-1948) and post-war (1947/8) transitional cap. I say transitional cap because I believe the flat cap band on idazle’s MB 136 to be the fourth of four typical transitional cap bands (see my post 61 above). A pen surely arising out of a ‘needs must’ situation, IF the pen wasn’t cobbled together towards the end of 1948/9

 

[...]

 

 

Looking at the cap top issue as identified by idazle, I believe that the flat or "low" cap top of Soot’s pen is more likely to be found on a transitional cap than not. However, clearly Soot's cap tube is from the war period (1943-1947 Rosler). Therefore, either flat cap top on Soot's fabulous pen is a later replacement cap top on its own (likely where the whole clip is missing) or perhaps Soot's pen has one of the very last wartime cap tubes, given out by way of replacement for a damaged/lost one, for which the only available cap top at the time was this transitional one!

 

[...]

 

As always I find your "reading" fully sensible and authoritative.

 

I have a doubt though. If the cap in my 136 is a transitional cap as suggested by the flat cap band, then why does it sport a tall cap-top, which is not a transitional trait? Two hypotheses occur to me: either 1.) the flat cap bands are also to be found relatively early, in the middle of the wartime period, or 2.) while the cap tube is actually a transitional one, the cap top comes from an earlier period, like the long ink-window.

 

So, going somewaht deeper into the world of conjectures, one could hypothesize that in the transitional period (1946-49?) my pen was assembled in the Montblanc factory by bringing together a pre-war barrel with the long inkwindow, a pre-war or early war-time cap top, a war-time steel nib and a transitional cap tube with a flat single band. However I have the impression that thinking that the MB factory in 1946-49 had stocks of pre-war long ink-windows and tall cap-tops for assembling such a pen might be a long shot, isn`t it?

 

In connection with that I would like to raise a last point about the alleged use of all kind of old and new parts by Montblanc to assemble pens -due to severe shortages- during the harsh wartime period. Cannot be the case that levering on that circumstance, in a later era -and even today- sellers and pen collectors have cobbled together MB pens using old components without historic informed criteria and try to pass them off as "wartime" or "transitional" pens?

 

Idazle

[sunnerd]

Time for Pavoni to turn this thesis into a book.

That Danish MB book costs > $100 and only 120 pages. You can do better than that mate

[sunnerd]

 

In connection with that I would like to raise a last point about the alleged use of all kind of old and new parts by Montblanc to assemble pens -due to severe shortages- during the harsh wartime period. Cannot be the case that levering on that circumstance, in a later era -and even today- sellers and pen collectors have cobbled together MB pens using old components without historic informed criteria and try to pass them off as "wartime" or "transitional" pens?

 

Idazle

 

Idazle, my humble opinion is that there is no way to determine the exact era of your pen. The parts are probably from different era so trying to establish an explanation on how they come into one pen is beyond all of us except the previous owners.

[idazle]

 

Idazle, my humble opinion is that there is no way to determine the exact era of your pen. The parts are probably from different era so trying to establish an explanation on how they come into one pen is beyond all of us except the previous owners.

 

Yes sunnerd, that's my point. Except for those pens like the ones owned by Pavoni we are likely to come across "hybrid" pens that either were assembled by Montblanc in the late war period OR by somebody else as late as today. We'll never know.

Edited August 20, 2013 by idazle

[pavoni]

 

 

 

As always I find your "reading" fully sensible and authoritative.

 

I have a doubt though. If the cap in my 136 is a transitional cap as suggested by the flat cap band, then why does it sport a tall cap-top, which is not a transitional trait? Two hypotheses occur to me: either 1.) the flat cap bands are also to be found relatively early, in the middle of the wartime period, or 2.) while the cap tube is actually a transitional one, the cap top comes from an earlier period, like the long ink-window.

 

So, going somewaht deeper into the world of conjectures, one could hypothesize that in the transitional period (1946-49?) my pen was assembled in the Montblanc factory by bringing together a pre-war barrel with the long inkwindow, a pre-war or early war-time cap top, a war-time steel nib and a transitional cap tube with a flat single band. However I have the impression that thinking that the MB factory in 1946-49 had stocks of pre-war long ink-windows and tall cap-tops for assembling such a pen might be a long shot, isn`t it?

 

In connection with that I would like to raise a last point about the alleged use of all kind of old and new parts by Montblanc to assemble pens -due to severe shortages- during the harsh wartime period. Cannot be the case that levering on that circumstance, in a later era -and even today- sellers and pen collectors have cobbled together MB pens using old components without historic informed criteria and try to pass them off as "wartime" or "transitional" pens?

 

Idazle

 

Hi idazle,

 

Apologises at my repeated yet futile attempts at numbering my paragraphs above. I have tried to deal with this formatting but .....well

 

Taking your last three paragraphs from your post above:

 

1. Agreed on the possibility of either of your sensible suggestions, with a third possibility, that you and I have not yet seen enough of your type of cap (flat cap band, tall cap top) to recognise that this is may be a standard, albeit brief production run, cap arrangement!

 

2. Agreed that it is far too easy to reach for a plausible scenario simply to suit our immediate needs. This vintage market of ours is clearly made up of pens from legitimate as well as dubious or even devious origins. The fact remains that much of what we need in terms of hard 'evidence' was lost in that 1944 heavy bombing of Hamburg and the main Montblanc offices. Like all successful companies, Montblanc uses a huge dollop of 'myth' which is unfortunately required to cement the legends that support the brand. I find myself a knowing victim of this but that is my choice, in much the same way as I choose to accept the myths about Patek Philippe, Aston Martin (though I don't yet have the car ), and even my own employer (established five years before Montblanc).

 

3. Companies such as Montblanc would have done/sold anything to raise cash, Indeed, Rosler even tells of post-war situations where MB management were selling off items to raise much needed cash, and how the cash-strapped public were selling/trading such items (fountain pens) to the occupying forces. Retailers themselves will have been able to make up pens using any old/overstock component parts to suit their purposes; and of course, whilst the interest in Montblanc vintage pens is only relatively recent, cobbled pens are bound to have been inserted into the market simply to boost prices etc. More reason therefore for forums and threads like ours us to better understand what we have and want to see in our precious vintage collections. Ultimately however, what we decide to understand and see in our collections is down to the individual.

 

We are probably in a far better position now, to appreciate Montblanc's historic catalogue of pens, than ever before. However, there will always be pens we cannot account for or agree upon and as such, we can but share a considered view and leave it up to the individual to buy or pass.

[pavoni]

I fold to your 9, Pavoni.

 

Such a great thread!

 

It is so Soot because of FPNers such as your good self who are willing to participate and contribute generously. Thank you.

[pavoni]

Wow...We can really see how much work it is to make such a topic...It has taken years to find so much infos and pens of course. Thank you very very much

 

Thank you Montblanc owner and lover. We are lucky that the Moderators have generously decided to pin this thread, enabling others to visit, improve and benefit from it, hopefully for years to come.

 

Pavoni.

[pavoni]

Time for Pavoni to turn this thesis into a book.

That Danish MB book costs > $100 and only 120 pages. You can do better than that mate

 

Thanks for the support Kai. Very much appreciated.

 

I heartily recommend looking up some of the excellent pictures from sunnerd's collection But don't let him know that I have nicked one or two as wallpaper for this computer

 

Pavoni.

[idazle]

 

Hi idazle,

 

Apologises at my repeated yet futile attempts at numbering my paragraphs above. I have tried to deal with this formatting but .....well

 

Taking your last three paragraphs from your post above:

 

1. Agreed on the possibility of either of your sensible suggestions, with a third possibility, that you and I have not yet seen enough of your type of cap (flat cap band, tall cap top) to recognise that this is may be a standard, albeit brief production run, cap arrangement!

 

2. Agreed that it is far too easy to reach for a plausible scenario simply to suit our immediate needs. This vintage market of ours is clearly made up of pens from legitimate as well as dubious or even devious origins. The fact remains that much of what we need in terms of hard 'evidence' was lost in that 1944 heavy bombing of Hamburg and the main Montblanc offices. Like all successful companies, Montblanc uses a huge dollop of 'myth' which is unfortunately required to cement the legends that support the brand. I find myself a knowing victim of this but that is my choice, in much the same way as I choose to accept the myths about Patek Philippe, Aston Martin (though I don't yet have the car ), and even my own employer (established five years before Montblanc).

 

3. Companies such as Montblanc would have done/sold anything to raise cash, Indeed, Rosler even tells of post-war situations where MB management were selling off items to raise much needed cash, and how the cash-strapped public were selling/trading such items (fountain pens) to the occupying forces. Retailers themselves will have been able to make up pens using any old/overstock component parts to suit their purposes; and of course, whilst the interest in Montblanc vintage pens is only relatively recent, cobbled pens are bound to have been inserted into the market simply to boost prices etc. More reason therefore for forums and threads like ours us to better understand what we have and want to see in our precious vintage collections. Ultimately however, what we decide to understand and see in our collections is down to the individual.

 

We are probably in a far better position now, to appreciate Montblanc's historic catalogue of pens, than ever before. However, there will always be pens we cannot account for or agree upon and as such, we can but share a considered view and leave it up to the individual to buy or pass.

 

Pavoni, you must include these sensible and well informed reflections of yours in your forthcoming book on Montblanc, really

 

Idazle

[pavoni]

Thank you idazle.

 

The knowledge in this thread is ‘collective’ and as such, it would hardly be correct for me alone to take the credit for the helpful information within. I do however appreciate your kind comments and generous support of this thread. Your own contribution has been considerable and most welcome.

 

This type of thread ought to make redundant any notion of a hardcopy book which, in any event, would surely be out of date the moment it was printed! No, rather than such an exercise in vanity, how about a free electronic book for anyone interested, with self-updating episodes and automatic insertion of pictures; but hey.............isn’t that what we have already created here with this thread

 

Thank you to all those who have contributed thus far and those yet to do so

Pavoni.

[idazle]

In addition to the flat cap top of sunnerd's pen, we also see the transitional cap band. Here are the main cap bands of the period in question, with idazle's transitional 136 cap band to be added.

 

Wartime MB 136, 136 transitional, 134 transitional, wartime 236

 

Of course, there are no absolute answers to the curiosities that are vintage Montblanc pens. However, you see how these magnificent pens tell a story, once we learn and agree upon the language. Fabulous contributions to the thread everyone. Thank you for keeping it on theme – piston-fillers of 1934-1954

Pavoni

 

In connection with the fourth transitional Meisterstück cap mentioned (but not shown) by Pavoni, I've found an interesting example in the Penboard.de site:

 

 

This Meisterstück 134 has all the features we have seen as characteristic of transitional (1947/8) pens in this thread: short ink window, prismatic clip, flat/low cap top ... but it also shows a single flat cap band. This would reinforce Pavoni's idea that such band, present in my "wartime" Meisterstück 136, is in fact a transitonal cap band.

 

There is another aspect of these 136 pens that I've been researching with the priceless help of Pavoni. My 136 pen sports a steel nib which on close inspection seems to show a "235" number stamped on the base. I cannot make out the complete digits as the nib is set deep into the section, and I do not want to pull it out. But I'm pretty sure it's a "235". Not long ago I had the chance to see another 136 steel nib screwed into a late production (ca 1950) Meisterstück 138 (apparently that is usual with these late 138 pens as 138 nibs were not longer available at the time). This 136 nib, instead of carrying a "235" code on the base, had a "136" code engraved on the same place.

Again, I have taken a look at the penboard database (thanks penboard people for such a useful resource) and found that, in effect, there are two types of Meisterstück 136 nibs, as you can see on the pics below:

1.- 136 nib - type A, with a "235" code engraved:

2.- 136 nib - type B, with a "136" code engraved:

 

 

 

So, the situation with the Meisterstück 136 seems to be the same as that seminally described by Pavoni in post 100 of this thread in connection with the Meisterstück 139. This can also sport two kind of nibs: those with the "250" code stamped on the base and those without that code or even with a "139" engraved on the nib, the so called "L139" nibs, although I believe Pavoni said nibs which actually showed a 139 engraved were rare.

 

To sum up, based on this little research and also on the information contained in page III of Rösler's The Montblanc Diary and Collector's Guide, I submit that the code system for early (???) Meisterstück pens would look like this:

 

Meisterstück model Nib code

132 220

 

134 225

 

136 235

 

138 245

 

139 250 (this does not appear in Rosler's Guide)

 

Please forgive me if I've made any type of mistake, either in terms of English/spelling or of "substance". I do not pretend to be an expert on vintage MB pens, quite the opposite.

 

Cheers

Carlos

Edited August 22, 2013 by idazle

[pavoni]

Super work idazle. Thank you for this excellent and important addition to this thread.

 

Pavoni.

[DanvilleTrader]

Almost too much to read all at once, but fun and very informative.

I had no idea about Dunhill and Vendome, etc.

While looking around I found this picture of the factory and HQ I believe in Hamburg Sternschanze. I literally grew up in one city block over...

[BURNSY13]

Pavoni, can you point me in the direction of your home display, please? I thought I bookmarked it, but alas, I did not. I was looking at it the other day, now I can't find it! And it's absolutely spectacular! I wanted to show it to a friend! Thanks in advance!

[chunya]

I just stumbled on this post today, what an absolute pleasure it was to read and being mesmerised by such a collection.

[KAC]

I'll add to the accolades: this is the most professionally curated and expertly assembled collection I've seen in private hands. Congratulations on your expert work and useful commentary.

 

KAC

[77kath]

Like so many others, I am grateful for your knowledge and thoroughness!

[Tom Heath]

Pavoni

many thanks for this MB info..., it was quite useful in helping to identify some MB parts I find myself with

 

I can see it was a real labor of love compiling all the various pen, their photos and descriptions.

 

I believe I have a 132 Complete BHR Cap and a 132 Filling system

see attachments if I am incorrect please help set me straight

 

 

The nib is from an unknown era it is 14K heavy gold not multi toned or gold silver washes applied

it is stamped 146 near bottom of nib

 

my guess it is a medium semi flex.

 

Can someone offer what is the approx. time frame of manufacture.

 

Thanks for your comments

[orfew]

I believe the nib is a monotone gold version for a 146. Date of manufacture would be the 80s. I have a 146 from this period and they are very good writers.

[pavoni]

Many thanks for your kind comments Tom. Thank you also to chunya and KAC for taking the time to comment.

 

It was really good of you to share your MB 132 cap and piston-filling mechanism with us. I find these early 13# series caps very attractive, particularly with their elegant tall cap tops. You ought to be able to see 'MONTBLANC-MEISTERSTUCK' around the cap top. Don't you just love those Meisterstuck tie clips?

 

I think it important for anyone interested in these magnificent pens, to have, as part of their collection, a spare telescopic piston-filling mechanism. This famous mechanism needs to be seen to be appreciated. Highly respected members Max (maxpens.de) and Fountainbel (Francis) are best qualified to comment on exactly why this particular filling system is so appreciated.

 

What little knowledge I have on Montblanc pens is restricted to the period of the 13# series and the later (1950s) 14# series, so I am not going to be much help to you on dating that nib. I suspect however that the excellent orfew is correct in his view.

 

Pavoni.