An Enthusiast’s Collection – Part 2

[idazle]

  On 8/17/2013 at 11:10 PM, pavoni said:

 

Dear idazle, thank you very much for your kind comments as always

 

Thank you for presenting a couple of case studies. This is exactly as I had imagined my thread to be used. By exploring such cases together, with the opportunity for others to pitch in, we all increase our knowledge and therefore our enjoyment of these fabulous pens.

 

[...]

 

On a separate note, you will observe from the MB catalogue of 1939, which naturally shows an example of the first 332, that it has just one cap band! I only have one such cap among my 3rd tier 33# pens and that is on my 333 1/2. Both Rosler's MB Diary and Collectible Stars show the 332 with two cap bands. We now have the advantage of being able to pin point the date for a MB 332 with a single cap band, the correct clip and a size 2 nib as very likely being 1939

 

[...]

 

Thanks to you for taking the time to give a thoroughly documented reply.

 

 

I would like to bring about another case-study, which is another allegedly 234 1/2 luxury pen currently owned by a friend of mine:

 

 

If we consider together two pieces of evidence such as the "4 1/2" stamped steel nib and the "expensive" piston arrangement -to which you have referred before in this thread- my conclusion is that both the body and the nib of this pen would belong to an early 234 1/2" model.

 

The cap though is another story. The owner would argue that the tie-clip is characteristic of a "luxury" 234 1/2 but:

 

1.- The early traits found in the body-nib would contradict that statement, since luxury pens are of a later production; and

 

2.- In my humble opinion, one thing is to sport a Meisterstück tie-clip on a typically 234 1/2 cap (which is the case with the excellent exemplars of 234 1/2 in your collection) and another altogether different is to have a Meisterstück cap.

 

Have you ever come across such a frankenpen?

 

PS: what was the WV4 mark stamped on the base of the nib? It has been mentioned before, I'm sure.

Edited August 18, 2013 by idazle

[pavoni]

Hi idazle,

 

Again, I agree with your reading of the pen

 

Whilst it is easy to be seen as overly fussy when analysing a pen in this way, surely it is the case that, the more we know how a pen ought to look, the less chance there is of spending our hard-earned cash on something we weren’t really after OR worse, that someone new on the FPN gets sold a dud That said, there is absolutely nothing wrong with simply acquiring a vintage MB, regardless of whether or not the nib or clip or cap is ‘authentic’ to the period advertised. It really depends on your reason for buying, if you have one .

OK, the first picture above of your friend’s pen says it all; the cap is from a Meisterstuck 134 whilst the blind cap says the body is from an early 234 ½, given the piston arrangement.

 

The third picture above shows a beautiful wartime nib and adds to the fact that the cap is not only wrong for the model but also possibly wrong for the year (if authenticity is what you are after) - I find the wartime Meisterstuck caps to be even more elegant without their cap band

 

I have taken the liberty of showing my MB Meisterstuck 134 with two 234 ½ Luxury pens, together with a wartime 234 ½. You can see from the two Luxury models that the piston arrangement consists of just the blind cap underneath of which is the piston-filler knob. The earlier wartime version however, also has a piston knob with the patent number showing.

MB 134, 234 1/2 Luxury, 234 1/2 Luxury, 234 1/2 wartime.

So, the curious element is the cap.

MB 134, 234 1/2 Luxury, 234 1/2 Luxury, 234 1/2 wartime caps.

For those unfamiliar with the differences in the cap, it is clear that the Meisterstuck cap on the far left has a taller cap top upon which is imprinted ‘MEISTERSTUCK’. Compare that with the 2^nd tier cap despite the same Meisterstuck clip and cap band.

MB 134 and 234 1/2 Luxury

 

If I were buying a 234 ½ with a steel nib, I would want it to have, what I would believe to be the right cap - a wartime cap.

 

MB 234 1/2 wartime version

 

With regard to the 'WV4' marking on the nib, my understanding is that this merely stands for a particular grade of steel

Nib from 234 1/2 wartime pen.

 

Pavoni

 

 

Edited August 18, 2013 by pavoni

[fountainbel]

Fascinating analysis, thanks again Pavoni !

What surprises me is seeing that your wartime 2341/2 features the lengthwise lines in the ink window.....

As far as I thought/heard, the lengthwise window lines were restricted to the "first tier" 13X and 14X pens

Never seen that ! Could it be a barrel of an 134??

Francis

[pavoni]

Thank YOU again Francis.

 

Unfortunately, I am not a good photographer What you have been tricked into seeing is literally a trick of light (or in this case, shadows!). Sorry but I hadn't noticed it until I read your comment. The 234 1/2 pictured has a clear, stripe-less window. Of course you are absolutely right, had there been stripes, it would have been the barrel of a MB 134 Sorry to have caused any confusion with my poor photography skills but really pleased you have managed to look in

 

Kind regards,

 

Pavoni.

[idazle]

Pavoni, as Francis has rightly said, fascinating analysis!!! True that there is nothing wrong with buying a pen that is not historically "authentic", but I agree with you that such decisión should be one's decision, on the basis of as much information as possible, and not the result of ... well, something else ;-)

 

Best

 

Carlos

[KJY]

  On 8/17/2013 at 5:18 PM, pavoni said:

 

You are so very kind to look in again KJY, and the fact that you have taken time to view and comment, is very much appreciated.

 

I saw from other posts that you managed to decipher your MB 134

 

Pavoni.

 

Thank you again for your kind words!

Yes unfortunately I saw your detailed pics too late.

Lesson learnt. Don't jump on a vintage without investigate further and ask for detailed pics and USE your topic as a reference.

[Soot]

  On 8/18/2013 at 6:16 PM, pavoni said:

I find the wartime Meisterstuck caps to be even more elegant without their cap band

 

Hear! Hear! I am on your boat, Pavoni. :-)

 

Not here to hijack the thread, but here's my war time band-less 136.

 

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8191/8430222019_5729ae9faf_b.jpg

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8191/8431307158_0ac1d71740_b.jpg

[pavoni]

That elegant wartime MB 136 of yours belongs in this thread Soot A great reference piece. Love that second photo

 

Many thanks for sharing.

 

Pavoni.

[Opooh]

Thanks to everyone, especially Pavoni for the encyclopedial information on vintage MB.

[logantrky]

This thread should be renamed "The Vintage MB Encyclopedia!"

[idazle]

  On 8/19/2013 at 9:27 PM, Soot said:

 

Hear! Hear! I am on your boat, Pavoni. :-)

 

Not here to hijack the thread, but here's my war time band-less 136.

 

 

Soot, that 136 is awful. Is the nib a two-tone alloy nib or is it just a reflection on the pic?

 

My 136 was sold to me as a "wartime" 136 too. It sports a steel nib which by the way is somewhat smaller than a later production 136 nib which I have seen in a 1950's late 138 Meisterstuck from the same seller (this late nib shows a "136" stamped on the base, which apparently is characteristic of late 136 nibs).

 

 

I wonder whether the fact of not having the "engraved band" disqualifies the pen as a wartime specimen. I must say, though, that according to the seller,whereas the pre-war 136 Meisterstück had a "raised" cap band, this one shows a "flat" cap band.

 

Another difference between your 136 wartime pen and mine is the cap top, high in mine lower in yours, like those seen in transitional models.

 

Finally, I cannot make out a visulated ink windows in your pen, but, again, it maybe an effect of the pic.

 

Cheers

Edited August 20, 2013 by idazle

[bmwboris]

Hi guys,

 

I am looking at a 138 with a 14C two tone nib- but it is stamped 245.

 

Does this seem correct? I am thinking it is post- war because of the gold content, but the 245 doesn't seem right to me- I was expecting 250.

 

What are people's thoughts?

[Daniele]

The 245 is right for the 138. The nibs with 250 are for the 139.

[Soot]

  On 8/20/2013 at 6:56 AM, idazle said:

 

Soot, that 136 is awful. Is the nib a two-tone alloy nib or is it just a reflection on the pic?

 

It's a Palladium nib; they have this weird color not quite like steel nibs.

 

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8045/8431306832_f2e6caa490_b.jpg

 

 

  On 8/20/2013 at 6:56 AM, idazle said:

Another difference between your 136 wartime pen and mine is the cap top, high in mine lower in yours, like those seen in transitional models.

 

Finally, I cannot make out a visulated ink windows in your pen, but, again, it maybe an effect of the pic.

 

Low cap and engraved...

 

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8224/8431307506_415b36f967_b.jpg

 

Lastly, the stripes in my ink view window is all but gone; they are there, but very slightly.

[bmwboris]

  On 8/20/2013 at 8:37 AM, Daniele said:

The 245 is right for the 138. The nibs with 250 are for the 139.

 

That's great to know- thank you Daniele

[sunnerd]

Hmm, 136... Here's another variation -

 

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4089/4844318163_2ce0cba90b_z.jpg

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4112/4844310983_cd79ee2881_z.jpg

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4148/4844312921_aeacf6734e_z.jpg

 

Steel nib is supposed to be war time, the clip looks like the 334 clip Pavoni had in the previous page, it's got a low cap with Montblanc Meisterstuck written across, but the cap band is interesting... Looks like yet another transitional pen.

[idazle]

  On 8/20/2013 at 10:32 AM, sunnerd said:

Hmm, 136... Here's another variation -

 

[...]

 

Steel nib is supposed to be war time, the clip looks like the 334 clip Pavoni had in the previous page, it's got a low cap with Montblanc Meisterstuck written across, but the cap band is interesting... Looks like yet another transitional pen.

 

Beautiful steel nib.

 

I've seen transitional or late production Meisterstück sporting steel nibs. It occurs to me that it is because either the nib is not the pen's native nib or it is but Montblanc continued using war stock long after the end of the war. I'm sure Pavoni can enlighten us on this point.

 

Idazle

[pavoni]

Gosh, you guys have been busy! If it is alright with you, I wouldn’t mind coming in on a few points.

 

In response to Soot’s lovely looking wartime pen, I raise you 9

Wartime versions of: MB136, 134, 236, 234 1/2, 232, 334 1/2, 333 1/2, 332, 432

 

Pavoni.

 

  On 8/20/2013 at 6:56 AM, idazle said:

 

 

 

I wonder whether the fact of not having the "engraved band" disqualifies the pen as a wartime specimen. I must say, though, that according to the seller,whereas the pre-war 136 Meisterstück had a "raised" cap band, this one shows a "flat" cap band.

 

Another difference between your 136 wartime pen and mine is the cap top, high in mine lower in yours, like those seen in transitional models.

 

Finally, I cannot make out a visulated ink windows in your pen, but, again, it maybe an effect of the pic.

 

Cheers

Nice MB 136 idazle and good clean photo

 

On queries such as, whether a non-engraved cap band disqualifies a pen from being a wartime specimen, I tend to look at the so-called war period in three parts:

1. From mid 1939 to 1942,

• At the beginning of which the initial introduction of restrictions on materials would have come into force
• In the early part of which Montblanc would have introduced palladium nibs as the first substitute for gold nibs
• Towards the end of which, steel nibs, replacing palladium, would have been the norm

1. 1943-1945,

• when the most severe of restrictions would have been placed on manufacturers and, when civilians faced the most severe of shortages.
• At the beginning of which Montblanc were supposed to have introduced the milled/engraved cap bands.
• When Montblanc switched to short ink-windows.

1. 1946-1949,

• During which post-war shortages existed but considerable steps were slowly but surely being taken to rebuild the economy – brands being resurrected.
• In the middle of which Montblanc plan the succession of the 13# series and transitional pens appear
• At the end of which we see the introduction of the new MB 146 and 144.

If we are to accept the above, then idazle’s pen could be viewed as having a pre-war barrel (1937-1943) with a wartime/post-war steel nib (1939-1948) and post-war (1947/8) transitional cap. I say transitional cap because I believe the flat cap band on idazle’s MB 136 to be the fourth of four typical transitional cap bands (see my post 61 above). A pen surely arising out of a ‘needs must’ situation, IF the pen wasn’t cobbled together towards the end of 1948/9

 

Every pen tells a story and, given the situation in Germany between 1939 and 1949, we can only really guess what had happened to the original gold elements of this pen (nib/clip/band).

 

Looking at the cap top issue as identified by idazle, I believe that the flat or "low" cap top of Soot’s pen is more likely to be found on a transitional cap than not. However, clearly Soot's cap tube is from the war period (1943-1947 Rosler). Therefore, either flat cap top on Soot's fabulous pen is a later replacement cap top on its own (likely where the whole clip is missing) or perhaps Soot's pen has one of the very last wartime cap tubes, given out by way of replacement for a damaged/lost one, for which the only available cap top at the time was this transitional one!

 

Pavoni.

 

  On 8/20/2013 at 7:41 AM, bmwboris said:

Hi guys,

I am looking at a 138 with a 14C two tone nib- but it is stamped 245.

Does this seem correct? I am thinking it is post- war because of the gold content, but the 245 doesn't seem right to me- I was expecting 250.

What are people's thoughts?

 

Daniele is absolutely right. The early MB 138 pens came with a '245' (size 8) nib as standard, whilst later it would not be unusual to find a MB 138 with a size smaller 6 (136) nib.

Sounds as though you have a much sought after early version MB 138 on your hands bmwboris

 

Pavoni.

 

  On 8/20/2013 at 9:51 AM, Soot said:

 

It's a Palladium nib; they have this weird color not quite like steel nibs.

 

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8045/8431306832_f2e6caa490_b.jpg

 

:puddle: LOVE that palladium nib Soot. Just look at the attention to detail on that decorative letter ‘P’.

 

Pavoni.

 

Low cap and engraved...

 

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8224/8431307506_415b36f967_b.jpg

 

 

 

My view is that flat cap top is more properly found on the transitional pens (or at least on the transitional caps where we are talking about a replacement cap).

 

The three main cap top types of the period in question would be:

MB 134, 136 transitional, 236.

 

Pavoni.

 

  On 8/20/2013 at 10:32 AM, sunnerd said:

Hmm, 136... Here's another variation -

 

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4089/4844318163_2ce0cba90b_z.jpg

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4148/4844312921_aeacf6734e_z.jpg

 

Steel nib is supposed to be war time, the clip looks like the 334 clip Pavoni had in the previous page, it's got a low cap with Montblanc Meisterstuck written across, but the cap band is interesting... Looks like yet another transitional pen.

 

My point reinforced by sunnerd’s stunning transitional MB 136 (but then he always has stunning pens ).

 

If we take into consideration my comments on Soot’s flat cap top and the picture of mine, clearly sunnerd’s is a transitional pen. No matter the third tier clip if it suits the overall look of the pen. Ideally however, we would see either a prismatic clip or a fluted clip with this transitional cap.

 

Those flatter cap tops must have come into production for a very short period and as such, ought surely to be seen as rather special. There is of course an even flatter and much rarer cap top arrangement (I don't have to show you unfortunately), which I understand was on those pens for the military of the time! (seen very occasionally on Penboard.de)

In addition to the flat cap top of sunnerd's pen, we also see the transitional cap band. Here are the main cap bands of the period in question, with idazle's transitional 136 cap band to be added.

Wartime MB 136, 136 transitional, 134 transitional, wartime 236

 

Of course, there are no absolute answers to the curiosities that are vintage Montblanc pens. However, you see how these magnificent pens tell a story, once we learn and agree upon the language. Fabulous contributions to the thread everyone. Thank you for keeping it on theme – piston-fillers of 1934-1954

Pavoni

Edited August 20, 2013 by pavoni

[Montblanc owner and lover]

Wow...We can really see how much work it is to make such a topic...It has taken years to find so much infos and pens of course. Thank you very very much

[Soot]

I fold to your 9, Pavoni.

 

Such a great thread!