Show Us Your Oblique Penholders!

[hzsimms]

  On 10/28/2013 at 2:13 PM, Mickey said:

I'm probably the one guilty of putting 'rake angle' in the FPN vocabulary, borrowing the term from phonograph stylus terminology, which itself was borrowed from the machinist lexicon (via the cutter head used to create phonograph masters). I used it to describe the shaft angle of FPs, so applying the same term to both holders and flanges seemed logical, even if the two rakes are typically set differently. (Technically, rake is the angle, measured from vertical, at which the cutter contacts the material being cut. The 'standard' for phonograph records was +15 degree, which needed to be considered in the geometry of the playback stylus, the armature to which the stylus was attached, tone arm mounting, etc.)

 

What Dr. Vitolo refers to as inward cant (a good choice of terms, imo) is an accommodation for the modern grip. Those of us who hold the pens with the palm nearly parallel to the page need less of this.

 

I propose we use the term 'turn in' (borrowing from my days at the barre*) to describe the angle between shaft and nib (in the plane of the page). This is set mostly by the flange maker. One should note, however, that the amount of turn in is decreased somewhat by both canting the nib inward and tilting the point upward (to reduce angle of attack).

 

 

* I know the thought of me dancing would horrify most who know me, but there have been times in my life when I took 'class' every morning. Out of respect to real dancers, I've always referred to what I did as moving under the direction of choreographers, never as dancing.

To be clear, are you using the term "turn in" to refer to the angle of the flange relative to the parallel of the shaft? i.e., the 42-45 you prefer?

[Stompie]

  On 10/28/2013 at 2:50 AM, Mickey said:

 

 

Stompie:

I'm sure either gentleman could give you a wide range of angles, especially with a Zanerian style flange, where the pen angle is governed mostly by the angle of the key that slides into the end of the holder. It's simply a matter of laying out the flange properly before making the last fold and cut.

 

Part of the difficulty you're experiencing may relate to grip. Make sure your hand is rotated counter clockwise enough for you to see 3 (or 4) knuckles when you grip the holder and that the shaft is not pointing very far outside your right shoulder. Grip a normal pen and watch where the tip direction drifts as you rotate your hand from palm parallel to the table to right angles to the table. See what I mean? You might also notice that you don't need to turn in or tilt back the nib as much with the hand closer to parallel with the desk. The shaft angle is naturally lower.

 

Hmmmm, you could be onto something there! I'll give it a try tomorrow when I get all my toys out to play again!

[Mickey]

  On 10/28/2013 at 2:31 PM, hzsimms said:

To be clear, are you using the term "turn in" to refer to the angle of the flange relative to the parallel of the shaft? i.e., the 42-45 you prefer?

Yes (but this is the flange before dialing in the two standard adjustments.) I'm measuing how oblique the flange holds the nib relative to the axis of the shaft. Zero would be parallel to the shaft, 90 degrees would be at right angles to the shaft. Note, that once I dial in the small amount of in cant and slightly more up cant (using Dr. V's terminology) I prefer, the net obliquity is around 38-42, which corresponds to a slant angle of 52-48 degrees. (Remember, I'm computing turn in from vertical, i.e., parallel to the shaft, and computing the slant from writing line, i.e., nominally at right angles to the shaft. My 3 favorite holders for Spencerian are all 38 +/- 1 degrees, including the result of in and up canting.

 

90-38=52 Standard Spencerian slant

 

90-42=48 Approximately Madarasz' slant.

 

I suspect someone doing copperplate exclusively might want a slightly less oblique flange, maybe 35 degrees. [i just measured three holders designed by penman who were best known for their Copperplate (Engraver, Engrosser) work. All measured in at around 35 degrees or less. I have some holders which barely measure 30 degrees.]

 

BTW, measuring and stating the geometry of a fully set up flange contains a fair amount of fudge factoring, as one tries to measure and portray in 2D terms, something which is really 3D.

[hzsimms]

  On 10/28/2013 at 6:17 AM, MusinkMan said:

a nice red stripe of hi-end pearly stuff from Germany.

I'm sure glad you're not throwing any of that low-end stuff at us! LOL! Nice work, as usual.

[hzsimms]

Newest from the pen laboratory:

 

This is made from black palm and something yellow (more from the turner's grab bag). The black palm is a much nicer wood than I anticipated. Very unique grain structure.

 

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/hzsimms/IMG_2834_zpsc6711f2e.jpg

 

The accent rings are two different types of acrylic. Here is a better view of the grain structure.

 

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/hzsimms/IMG_2837_zpsaf76ebbd.jpg

 

Very different...hadn't worked with it before but I kind of like it. My daughter says this pen looks like a "duck". Not a "soaring falcon" or a "majestic eagle" but a "duck". I'm not sure I'm down with the whole "duck" thing. Hope you like it.

 

Howard

[Scribe_Not]

  On 10/30/2013 at 2:22 AM, hzsimms said:

Newest from the pen laboratory:

 

This is made from black palm and something yellow (more from the turner's grab bag). The black palm is a much nicer wood than I anticipated. Very unique grain structure.

 

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/hzsimms/IMG_2834_zpsc6711f2e.jpg

 

The accent rings are two different types of acrylic. Here is a better view of the grain structure.

 

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/hzsimms/IMG_2837_zpsaf76ebbd.jpg

 

Very different...hadn't worked with it before but I kind of like it. My daughter says this pen looks like a "duck". Not a "soaring falcon" or a "majestic eagle" but a "duck". I'm not sure I'm down with the whole "duck" thing. Hope you like it.

 

Howard

Ya know Howard... I gotta agree with her. I see a kind of Duck Aura emanating from this one. I'll run this past my daughter that's an Oregon alum and get her take on it.

Pretty cool either way.

Also like that your double accent rings (or those little circle thingys) are becoming a signature look for you!

[caliken]

A little flourishing with one of the wonderful penholders from MusinkMan (Brian Smith)

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/illustration.jpg

[hzsimms]

  On 10/30/2013 at 7:37 AM, Scribe_Not said:

Ya know Howard... I gotta agree with her. I see a kind of Duck Aura emanating from this one. I'll run this past my daughter that's an Oregon alum and get her take on it.

Pretty cool either way.

Also like that your double accent rings (or those little circle thingys) are becoming a signature look for you!

Thanks! Yes, an expert opinion from your daughter would be greatly appreciated! "Duck aura"...I like that. And yes, I've become quite fond of the little circle thingys!

[schin]

  On 10/30/2013 at 1:29 PM, caliken said:

A little flourishing with one of the wonderful penholders from MusinkMan (Brian Smith)

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/illustration.jpg

 

 

Goodness Ken, those ovals are truly breathtaking! And done backwards too, how cheeky!

[Scribe_Not]

MusinkMan nails it again!

Just back from a ten-day motorbike trip back east and found this waiting for me on my desk at work on my return. A stunner… African Blackwood foot, gorgeous Honduran Burl grip, and a highly figured Koa handle with an Ivory finial.

(Now if I could just find somebody to make a simple little stand like this one! Jeez, nobody takes Wood Shop anymore?)

 

[hzsimms]

  On 10/30/2013 at 8:16 PM, Scribe_Not said:

MusinkMan nails it again!

Just back from a ten-day motorbike trip back east and found this waiting for me on my desk at work on my return. A stunner… African Blackwood foot, gorgeous Honduran Burl grip, and a highly figured Koa handle with an Ivory finial.

(Now if I could just find somebody to make a simple little stand like this one! Jeez, nobody takes Wood Shop anymore?)

 

Image 1.jpgImage.jpg

 

That's awesome, I love it! Even the round circle thingies look good!

[caliken]

  On 10/30/2013 at 4:47 PM, schin said:

 

 

Goodness Ken, those ovals are truly breathtaking! And done backwards too, how cheeky!

You're very observant!

 

Ken

[dhnz]

  On 10/26/2013 at 3:08 PM, Columba Livia said:

There is a very interesting article, Written by Fred Heath (of Concord, New Hampshire) for the Business Educator (November 1912 issue), here: …

 

I've noted that peerless oblique holder seems to have a good angle on the brass flange and looks like it might be close to the Excelsior. …

 

I think the PIA hourglass holder is close to the Excelsior holder in angles and size. I've temporarily mislaid my Excelsior, but when I find it I'll compare them and maybe post a picture of the two. The PIA also compares favourably to an original Zanerian holder I have that was set up for use by Earl Lupfer.

 

I have a very early oblique holder that looks something like the Spencerian menitoned in the article. The flange is on a pin and can be rotated to vary the slant angle but the pitch angle is set. Like the Spencerian, it is very thin and is pretty much straight up and down (like a small paintbrush).

 

By the way, thanks for posting the article.

 

Dominic

Edited October 30, 2013 by dhnz

[Stompie]

  On 10/30/2013 at 8:16 PM, Scribe_Not said:

 

Just back from a ten-day motorbike trip back east

 

 

What!!!! where'd ya go, what ya ride - tell more please! I miss my biking days!!!!

 

Oh yeah, nice pen thingy!

[Columba Livia]

  On 10/30/2013 at 10:09 PM, dhnz said:

I have a very early oblique holder that looks something like the Spencerian menitoned in the article. The flange is on a pin and can be rotated to vary the slant angle but the pitch angle is set. Like the Spencerian, it is very thin and is pretty much straight up and down (like a small paintbrush).

Does it look something like this?

 

 

http://i.imgur.com/cPydCVQ.jpg

^

https://archive.org/stream/penmansartjourna121unse#page/15/mode/1up

 

It's an interesting idea certainly. Illustrations from the New Spencerian Compendium, Penman's art journal &c. all show very thin penholders. It doesn't seem to be till unshaded writing became the norm that thicker cork-tipped ones starting becoming standard. The thinness of the holders was no doubt to make it easier to hold them in the standard position with the wrist flat and the holder pointing in the direction of the forefinger, so to continue that thinness with oblique holders, at least initially makes sense.

 

It would be very interesting to see a photograph of the flange on a holder set-up by Earl Lupfer and/or an Excelsior holder if you find it/get round to photographing them at some point.

[dhnz]

  On 10/30/2013 at 11:57 PM, Columba Livia said:

Does it look something like this?

 

Only as far as the body goes. The flange is a standard flange (albeit small) pinned through the centre of the end of the body and it's free to rotate around that pin. I think it has a patent date on it too. When I find the holders, I'll post pictures (they got packed up when I moved houses and I aven't yet found where I put them).

 

I also have a couple of plastic Zanerian holders. I think these were made quite late in the piece (ie, 1950s or even later) and they are all black plastic except for the flange. They're thin but have the traditional hour glass shape and a finial on the end. They're very light and came in a small white cardboard box with a Zanerian label. A guy was selling a whole lot of them some years ago, so they're not rare.

[MusinkMan]

  On 10/30/2013 at 1:29 PM, caliken said:

A little flourishing with one of the wonderful penholders from MusinkMan (Brian Smith)

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/illustration.jpg

 

Why thank you, Mr. Ken! Just look at those flourishes. You must have had to turn the paper "every way but loose" to sling ink like that.

 

I am very anxious to see what you think of the holder that is on it's way to you now. I tried to incorporate all of the elements that you wanted.

If your hand is near the same size as mine, this pen should fit like and old glove. And it's kinda purrty too, if I do say so myself.

[MusinkMan]

  On 10/28/2013 at 9:01 PM, hzsimms said:

I'm sure glad you're not throwing any of that low-end stuff at us! LOL! Nice work, as usual.

haha...no, never any low-end stuff. I only offer "good-quality" and "exclusive hi-grade" stuff. LOL!

 

I balked at paying those prices for such a small blank of simulated pearly stuff...but the quality and the aesthetics are pretty obvious in the finished product. The hi-grade stuff is imported from Germany and is actually made for custom tobacco pipe stems. Really awesome. Makes incredibly beautiful finials, but it takes over half a rod of it (because of the waste factor to chuck it); which makes it borderline cost-prohibitive for finials.

[MusinkMan]

  On 10/30/2013 at 2:22 AM, hzsimms said:

Newest from the pen laboratory:

 

This is made from black palm and something yellow (more from the turner's grab bag). The black palm is a much nicer wood than I anticipated. Very unique grain structure.

 

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/hzsimms/IMG_2834_zpsc6711f2e.jpg

 

The accent rings are two different types of acrylic. Here is a better view of the grain structure.

 

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/hzsimms/IMG_2837_zpsaf76ebbd.jpg

 

Very different...hadn't worked with it before but I kind of like it. My daughter says this pen looks like a "duck". Not a "soaring falcon" or a "majestic eagle" but a "duck". I'm not sure I'm down with the whole "duck" thing. Hope you like it.

 

Howard

Awesome, Howard. I have some black palm, but mine doesn't look like that. Mine is more "grainy"...sort of like black wood with little grains of rice in it or something. I haven't made anything with it yet, but I plan to. Your yellow wood...is it osage orange perhaps? thats what it looks like. A nice wood for handles, to be sure.

 

A duck? Hmm...I'm trying to connect the dots on that? I can't find the relationship between oblique pen holder and duck. hahaha Maybe I'm missing something in the translation. It's just a weird comparison...makes me feel like I must be having a flashback from some weird drug I took back in the 70's? I dunno? hahaha

[Mickey]

  On 10/31/2013 at 5:31 AM, MusinkMan said:

A duck? Hmm...I'm trying to connect the dots on that? I can't find the relationship between oblique pen holder and duck. hahaha Maybe I'm missing something in the translation. It's just a weird comparison...makes me feel like I must be having a flashback from some weird drug I took back in the 70's? I dunno? hahaha

The grain does look a little bit like duck feet.