Show Us Your Oblique Penholders!

[MusinkMan]

Thank you for showing it off, Ken! Nice video too!

 

Check it out! All of Ken's videos are soooo good!.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94wQ4u0ytck

[hzsimms]

  On 9/5/2013 at 6:32 AM, Stompie said:

 

I like the cut away's on the foot - seems like a great idea!

 

Nice looking holders there!

Thanks Stompie. It makes dipping a lot easier!

[fiberdrunk]

I finally get to show off my oblique! I say "finally" because I'm a hook-over lefty who has never been able to use an oblique pen before (you can see why in the photos that I posted earlier in this thread). But MusinkMan rose to the challenge of making me a custom oblique that lines up the nib where it should be, compensating for my contortion! I've never been able to flex before, and now I can fulfill my dream of learning Spencerian thanks to him! I get to be the proud owner of an oblique, too! We've been calling it the FrankenPen. I also call it the Freaky Obliquey and The Hammerhead (the nib is almost perpindicular to the shaft, is why!)

 

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3718/9686897143_7749c411bd_c.jpg

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7430/9686764471_430a1db2e0_b.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2882/9686761711_656652d57c_b.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/9686577181_a6e9d3c92d_b.jpg

Edited September 6, 2013 by fiberdrunk

[hzsimms]

  On 9/6/2013 at 9:37 PM, fiberdrunk said:

I finally get to show off my oblique! I say "finally" because I'm a hook-over lefty who has never been able to use an oblique pen before (you can see why in the photos that I posted earlier in this thread). But MusinkMan rose to the challenge of making me a custom oblique that lines up the nib where it should be, compensating for my contortion! I've never been able to flex before, and now I can fulfill my dream of learning Spencerian thanks to him! I get to be the proud owner of an oblique, too! We've been calling it the FrankenPen. I also call it the Freaky Obliquey and The Hammerhead (the nib is almost perpindicular to the shaft, is why!)

 

 

That's awesome! You two did a great job coming up with that design. Good start on the script! Congratulations.

[hzsimms]

I was on Zanerian.com the other day and saw this advertisement.

 

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/hzsimms/IMG_2705_zpse14915ba.jpg

 

I think it's fairly safe to assume that RC King was not a big fan of Magnusson's work. That having been said, I thought to myself that a 4 inch holder that's not a carrot would have to be a bit odd to work with. So I decided to find out for myself. I present for your entertainment the Sheer Nonsense oblique pen holder, dedicated to (I assume) the memory of RC King.

 

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/hzsimms/IMG_2709_zpsf69fb173.jpg

 

The wood is jatoba, not Mr. King's rosewood, and I'm fairly certain that he wouldn't approve of the paua shell inlay, but I thought it needed a little sprucing up. Now, should the ghost of Madarasz ever wonder by and want to write something, I can hand him this and not have to worry about him breaking the tail off one of my long holders.

 

Howard

[fiberdrunk]

  On 9/6/2013 at 10:47 PM, hzsimms said:

That's awesome! You two did a great job coming up with that design. Good start on the script! Congratulations.

 

Thank you! (And thanks to MusinkMan, too!)

[fiberdrunk]

  On 9/6/2013 at 11:03 PM, hzsimms said:

I was on Zanerian.com the other day and saw this advertisement.

 

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/hzsimms/IMG_2705_zpse14915ba.jpg

 

I think it's fairly safe to assume that RC King was not a big fan of Magnusson's work. That having been said, I thought to myself that a 4 inch holder that's not a carrot would have to be a bit odd to work with. So I decided to find out for myself. I present for your entertainment the Sheer Nonsense oblique pen holder, dedicated to (I assume) the memory of RC King.

 

http://i1349.photobucket.com/albums/p743/hzsimms/IMG_2709_zpsf69fb173.jpg

 

The wood is jatoba, not Mr. King's rosewood, and I'm fairly certain that he wouldn't approve of the paua shell inlay, but I thought it needed a little sprucing up. Now, should the ghost of Madarasz ever wonder by and want to write something, I can hand him this and not have to worry about him breaking the tail off one of my long holders.

 

Howard

 

 

Bravo!!! How does it feel to write with it? Is it comfortable? That kind of holder might be helpful for people with arthritis, perhaps.

[hzsimms]

  On 9/6/2013 at 11:11 PM, fiberdrunk said:

Bravo!!! How does it feel to write with it? Is it comfortable? That kind of holder might be helpful for people with arthritis, perhaps.

Thanks! The foot dimensions are pretty much the same as the long holders I make so that part is pretty familiar. But it's really peculiar to have absolutely nothing moving around behind your hand. Sort of like writing with the short end of a crayon!

[Stompie]

fiberdrunk that is amazing - I thought that Musinkman would come up with something!!!! He is rather adept and accommodating!

 

hzsimms - that is a great looking holder! That wood and the shell are brilliant!

When I return from holiday maybe you will have one for sale?

Musinkman did a carrot for me but lengthened it slightly and extended the grip part as well 9marrot holder) and I enjoy it thoroughly, it is such a comfortable holder to use - I am not too keen on my long ones since using the 'marrot' holder, as well as the Lilly he made - a really tough choice as to which one I prefer, but they are both my go to holders at the moment!

[Mickey]

  On 9/7/2013 at 12:53 PM, Stompie said:

fiberdrunk that is amazing - I thought that Musinkman would come up with something!!!! He is rather adept and accommodating!

 

hzsimms - that is a great looking holder! That wood and the shell are brilliant!

When I return from holiday maybe you will have one for sale?

Musinkman did a carrot for me but lengthened it slightly and extended the grip part as well 9marrot holder) and I enjoy it thoroughly, it is such a comfortable holder to use - I am not too keen on my long ones since using the 'marrot' holder, as well as the Lilly he made - a really tough choice as to which one I prefer, but they are both my go to holders at the moment!

 

 

The big problem with long holders is mass. You can balance out the weight, but mass doesn't go away. As good as Brian has become with the lathe, the shaft on my Magnusson (the one on which he based his early efforts) is much finer than any he has been able to achieve so far. Part of it (the smallest part, I suspect) is technique, a larger part is wood choice (something strong but light is best) and lathe set up. I suspect the old makers had their gear fine tuned for producing match-stick thin shafts without too many failures.

 

One might also note that the really long vintage holders rarely show up for sale. Relatively few were produced, I suspect, and even fewer survived. As for why long holders? I suspect it is their pedagogical value. The long shaft encourages proper pen movement (more arm, less finger) and the length also made bad technique easier to spot, both by the student and the instructor. Once your technique is solid, why bother with the annoyance of an over-length shaft? You break off the shaft just past the web between thumb and forefinger, just like Madarasz did.

 

As I said, I have a Magnusson and it's lovely, very usable piece, but it's too much work. It nags, if in a nice way. My go to holders are two of Brian's, both loaded with relatively stiff nibs (Esterbrook 128, 358). If I want to use softer nibs, I go to my lighter holders, Michael Sull (Principal), Bill Lilly (Hunt 99), or the first holder Brian made for me from a 100 year old piece of reclaimed walnut (Esterbrook 357).

Edited September 7, 2013 by Mickey

[hzsimms]

  On 9/7/2013 at 12:53 PM, Stompie said:

fiberdrunk that is amazing - I thought that Musinkman would come up with something!!!! He is rather adept and accommodating!

 

hzsimms - that is a great looking holder! That wood and the shell are brilliant!

When I return from holiday maybe you will have one for sale?

Musinkman did a carrot for me but lengthened it slightly and extended the grip part as well 9marrot holder) and I enjoy it thoroughly, it is such a comfortable holder to use - I am not too keen on my long ones since using the 'marrot' holder, as well as the Lilly he made - a really tough choice as to which one I prefer, but they are both my go to holders at the moment!

 

 

Thanks Stompie, I appreciate it very much. You PM me whenever you get back and we'll work it out. Have a nice holiday!

 

Howard

[hzsimms]

  On 9/7/2013 at 5:50 PM, Mickey said:

The big problem with long holders is mass. You can balance out the weight, but mass doesn't go away. As good as Brian has become with the lathe, the shaft on my Magnusson (the one on which he based his early efforts) is much finer than any he has been able to achieve so far. Part of it (the smallest part, I suspect) is technique, a larger part is wood choice (something strong but light is best) and lathe set up. I suspect the old makers had their gear fine tuned for producing match-stick thin shafts without too many failures.

 

One might also note that the really long vintage holders rarely show up for sale. Relatively few were produced, I suspect, and even fewer survived. As for why long holders? I suspect it is their pedagogical value. The long shaft encourages proper pen movement (more arm, less finger) and the length also made bad technique easier to spot, both by the student and the instructor. Once your technique is solid, why bother with the annoyance of an over-length shaft? You break off the shaft just past the web between thumb and forefinger, just like Madarasz did.

 

As I said, I have a Magnusson and it's lovely, very usable piece, but it's too much work. It nags, if in a nice way. My go to holders are two of Brian's, both loaded with relatively stiff nibs (Esterbrook 128, 358). If I want to use softer nibs, I go to my lighter holders, Michael Sull (Principal), Bill Lilly (Hunt 99), or the first holder Brian made for me from a 100 year old piece of reclaimed walnut (Esterbrook 357).

 

All perfectly sensible Mickey, but, if the ultimate goal, figuratively speaking, is to "break off the tail", why make so many with ornate ends? I suppose ivory finials were not that hard to come by back then but I don't suspect they were considered five and dime items either. My suspicion is that, even at their utilitarian peak, some of those holders were designed as much to be looked at as they were to be used, not unlike Parker 51's with Empire caps and anything one writes with made out of sterling silver! It does go a long way toward explaining all the broken pens in the Tate collection though.

[Mickey]

  On 9/8/2013 at 2:58 AM, hzsimms said:

 

All perfectly sensible Mickey, but, if the ultimate goal, figuratively speaking, is to "break off the tail", why make so many with ornate ends? I suppose ivory finials were not that hard to come by back then but I don't suspect they were considered five and dime items either. My suspicion is that, even at their utilitarian peak, some of those holders were designed as much to be looked at as they were to be used, not unlike Parker 51's with Empire caps and anything one writes with made out of sterling silver! It does go a long way toward explaining all the broken pens in the Tate collection though.

I doubt many were made entirely for their ornamental value. Professional users, real penmen bought holders by the dozen (the advertisements of the time show us that) and points by the gross. A holder was only interesting to them as a means of earning a living. If it didn't serve their needs right out of the box, they 'customized' it, usually this meant trimming the shaft to size and / or wrapping the grip with tape or string.

 

'Civilian' users, whose technical requirements were less critical, could afford to have richer looking holders, simply because their income did not depend directly on their penmanship and because they might not have to replace their holder for years. I suspect the moderate length (<8") holders with ivory finials were consumer goods. The sort of pen one might find on a gentleman or ladies desk, but they weren't ornaments. They were handsome lightly used tools - think MB carry pen.

 

As for ivory, it was pretty cheap in the pre-embargo days, along with plenty of other now exotic materials. I have a 1932 Knabe professional model with ivory and ebony keys and a walnut burl case. In its day, it was an instrument for an upper middle class family. I shudder to think what it would cost to make today, though probably nowhere near the cost of a Chickering rosewood grand with mother pearl keys I once played.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Mickey

[caliken]

When I first started this topic back in May, I had no idea that it would produce such a wealth of information. In my ignorance, I had just assumed that the very long holders were simply an aesthetic attempt to mimic the long narrow quills which had preceeded them. We live and learn.

 

Ken

[Mickey]

  On 9/8/2013 at 11:01 AM, caliken said:

When I first started this topic back in May, I had no idea that it would produce such a wealth of information. In my ignorance, I had just assumed that the very long holders were simply an aesthetic attempt to mimic the long narrow quills which had preceeded them. We live and learn.

 

Ken

I can't say how much water my theories hold regarding long holders, but I could never entirely buy into the quill mimicking theory, though I did consider it seriously. Real quills (not the one shown in the Korda brothers' films) were usually cut fairly short (6-8"), about the same as many desk-pens, and, other than length, I've seen no quill feature on a holder other than length. That suggests to me there was (were) some other reason(s).

 

Most surviving pens and holders from the old master penman are relatively short. Seven to eight inches seem typical, though there are exceptions, both markedly shorter and longer. That suggested to me long holders were either an affectation (as per your original theory), a relatively rare preference, or that they offered some pedagogical value which might be abandoned when one became sufficiently skilled. My experience with a 11.75" Magnusson supports, at least in part, the pedagogic argument. The extended length does seem to oppose change in shaft orientation. With a long holder, my peripheral vision also picks up ragged movements of the finial, which would be are all but undetectable with shorter holders. As my technique has improved, the inertial 'help' has gradually become less welcome, though if honest about my actual level of development, I should probably being using a one meter holder. It is also possible that long holders had instructional value: students could see better how their teachers moved their pens. (Most of the great penmen were teachers of writing.)

[MusinkMan]

  On 9/8/2013 at 11:01 AM, caliken said:

When I first started this topic back in May, I had no idea that it would produce such a wealth of information. In my ignorance, I had just assumed that the very long holders were simply an aesthetic attempt to mimic the long narrow quills which had preceeded them. We live and learn.

 

Ken

 

Ken, I don't think that any of us really know why the shape of pens "morphed" into such a variety of shapes, lengths, and other sizes. I do believe that much of it is aesthetics. People simply enjoy the elegant appearance of long slender pens; and I think many also enjoy the way those feel when writing. It's sort of a cool experience to pick up a long handled pen, and feel the weight sort of disappear as it falls into "writing position" in your hand and the weight balances out. And of course the visual appeal is hard to deny. I've seen many photos of the pens used by Master Penman from the Golden Era. Many of them look like absolute junk, and many appear to be home-made. Some are as simple as a short flat piece of wood (mildly shaped) with a flange screwed to the side of it; and obviously a home-made item. These were tools of extremely skilled penmen, but not many of us would go searching for a pen that looked like that. Truth is, those guys were so good, they could write with a small stick in the dirt, and they would be amazing. The pen holders they used were likely a small consideration...their magnificent skills were the source of their pride. One wonders if they even gave their pens a second look. Yet there is more to the story that has likely been lost in the mists of time. Obviously there were very nice elegant longhandles produced during this time, and they were in demand (and they still are). A.Magnusson certainly had an ad in all of the Buisness Educators and sold longtail holders by the gross (your choice of "plain" or "fancy" according to the old ads). Oscar Magnusson's longhandled holders are one of the most sought after and collectible vintage pen holders. Rarely do we even see them available for purchase. Even the Zanerian School sold very nice longhandled pen holders; and goodness knows I've bid on a couple myself...but wasn't lucky enough to win! (darn it). The point being, these longtails were very much in use and desireable during those days. As to "why", I would guess that they looked nice as well as being functional; that elegant beauty combined with great functionality (and the taste of nostalgia that goes along with it) cause these to be very desireable. Were there other reasons for them? Were they teaching aids to allow visual anomalies in finger movement? Heck, who knows, I've never read anything about that and I would think that it would have been mentioned somewhere back then. Were they some kind of "teacher's tool" to allow the teacher to monitor the finger movement of their class of students? I guess it's possible, but doesn't seem likely because these were not bargain based "student line" holders, they were premium holders. We can only guess or try to reason out their relevance...but I believe their main appeal was the same as the reason they are desireable even today...they are pretty and timeless and elegant. Just the sight of them can motivate you to pick them up and dip them and write-write-write. There's just something about them. Even to those who prefer a shorter handle, most everyone enjoys owning and writing with a long handled pen. I know this is weird, but compare it to...say... a table lamp in your home. A bare bones lamp with an uncovered bulb (no lampshade) will probably give more light and will certainly function as well as a beautifully crafted lamp with an attractive lampshade; but that doesn't mean that we should opt for a bare-bones lamp. We enjoy our nice tasteful table lamps, and they give us the best of both worlds. Kind of a weird analogy with a table lamp and a longtail pen, but hopefully the comparison will make some kind of sense.

:-)

Edited September 8, 2013 by MusinkMan

[Mickey]

  On 9/8/2013 at 6:33 PM, MusinkMan said:

 

Were they teaching aids to allow visual anomalies in finger movement? Heck, who knows, I've never read anything about that and I would think that it would have been mentioned somewhere back then. Were they some kind of "teacher's tool" to allow the teacher to monitor the finger movement of their class of students? I guess it's possible, but doesn't seem likely because these were not bargain based "student line" holders, they were premium holders.

There may be a hint to this question in the classroom layout of many writing academies. According to what I've read, the teacher typically sat at a high desk, one from which he might view what his students were doing. Obviously, without field glasses, it would be unlikely he could see the actual writing, so he was pretty obviously watching something else. Posture, obvious, but maybe he was watching what the students were doing with their pens. This seems likely to me. Ever wonder why the tip of a beagle's tail is white? It's so the hunters can see where the rest of the dog is going. A long handle gives an amplified view of what is going on at the other end of the pen.

[hzsimms]

  On 9/8/2013 at 5:09 AM, Mickey said:

 

As for ivory, it was pretty cheap in the pre-embargo days, along with plenty of other now exotic materials. I have a 1932 Knabe professional model with ivory and ebony keys and a walnut burl case. In its day, it was an instrument for an upper middle class family. I shudder to think what it would cost to make today, though probably nowhere near the cost of a Chickering rosewood grand with mother pearl keys I once played.

 

To my point exactly. You could probably get comparable results from a Baldwin or a Yamaha, but you prefer the Knabe. I think the ornate pen holders were similarly a matter of preference if not status. Remember, the "golden age of ornamental penmanship" coincides, for all intents and purposes, almost precisely with what we refer to as the "gilded age". Functional literacy rates at the beginning of that period were around 80%. Of that 80%, I highly suspect that the number that gave a good flying snort about ornamental penmanship was drastically lower. I agree wholeheartedly that "professionals" (teachers, artists, itinerant calligraphers and the like) were among that smaller group. You are probably right in the assertion that the appearance of their holders meant relatively little to them (a look at the Tate pens bears that out). They made their living at the point of the pen, not the other end, and their product was their livelihood. They probably had little use for decoration as it did nothing to put bread on the table.

 

However, I think that also included in that rather small subset of people who cared anything at all about ornamental penmanship, were the well educated and well read individuals of the time (the "civilians"). Being, as it were, prior to the days of compulsory school attendance, education of any substantial degree equated to money, and money, at the time, equated to ostentation. They don't call it the gilded age for no reason. Displays of affluence by the affluent seem to have been nearly mandatory. Take a look at their hairbrushes, hand mirrors and razors. How many dip pens have you seen from the period that are made of sterling, mother of pearl and other things nice but less than necessary? The "pregnant Parkers" of the period are a perfect example of form outpacing function (which is not to say that I wouldn't love to have one or a dozen). Here, I believe, was the market that Magnusson and his ilk made their ornamental holders for, and I don't expect that they anticipated anyone in that tribe would be breaking them in half. I'm certain that you know from personal experience how much attention a long tail holder attracts from people when you pull it out and start writing. That sort of adoration was at the heart of the excess of the gilded age and the effect would, at least to me, seem to be somewhat lost by the use of a broken stick.

 

As for a modern pen maker's ability to duplicate exactly the old long tails, I'm not so certain that it's as much inability as it is a of lack of desire. Yes, pen smiths like Brian try to duplicate, to a certain extent, the style of the old masters, and they largely succeed. But, I think there's a point beyond which the risk outweighs the reward. We live in a disposable society wherein respect for personal property, it seems, is at an all time low. Witness the rise of the waterproof smart phone case and the rubber armored laptop. We are not, these days, very delicate and a pen holder with a tail 1/16 of an inch thick would not, in most circumstances, long remain intact. If I had ever been lucky enough to have actually owned a Magnusson, I would not have been in the least surprised to discover one day that one of my children had whacked the other with it in response to some perceived slight and I now had a Madarasz modified version thereof. As a part time hobbyist, I certainly lack the skill to craft such a pen, but I don't think it's an unattainable goal for those with the ability to pursue it. After all, it's not like chasing the mystical sound of a Stradivarius. It's a pen holder.

 

Howard

[Stompie]

Hey Brian, ever thought of doing a hollow Magnu' holder?

 

Cut it in half, drill out the inside and reset t together with them fancy little circle thingy's you put on - that should give you a lot less weight than just going ultra thin.

 

 

Howard, we shall talk when I get back early in November. There are 2 holders you have done that really interest me! gonna wreck the plans for my next holiday!!!!

[Stompie]

  On 9/6/2013 at 9:37 PM, fiberdrunk said:

I finally get to show off my oblique! I say "finally" because I'm a hook-over lefty who has never been able to use an oblique pen before (you can see why in the photos that I posted earlier in this thread). But MusinkMan rose to the challenge of making me a custom oblique that lines up the nib where it should be, compensating for my contortion! I've never been able to flex before, and now I can fulfill my dream of learning Spencerian thanks to him! I get to be the proud owner of an oblique, too! We've been calling it the FrankenPen. I also call it the Freaky Obliquey and The Hammerhead (the nib is almost perpindicular to the shaft, is why!)

 

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3718/9686897143_7749c411bd_c.jpg

 

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7430/9686764471_430a1db2e0_b.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2882/9686761711_656652d57c_b.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2824/9686577181_a6e9d3c92d_b.jpg

 

 

These pictures still slay me! Am I allowed to be so happy for you??????