Show Us Your Oblique Penholders!

[MusinkMan]

  On 12/17/2013 at 10:36 AM, caliken said:

 

Beautiful craftsmanship.....as ever.

 

Ken

Thank you so much Ken!

[MusinkMan]

  On 12/18/2013 at 6:36 AM, Scribe_Not said:

 

Holy Schneikies Brian!!! You been eating handfuls of Skittles? Talk about tasting the rainbows... you're gonna make the Big Guy up there jealous making all these gorgeous rainbow staves!

Seriously Bubba, you just pushed the envelope all the way off the table with the last one of this Trio I just spotted on Etsy. Fats Domino is spinning in his grave about that one.

Is there any jewel tone that you can't do?

 

 

 

hahaha Thank you Doug. Here's a blue one I completed today.

 

[smk]

Nice holders Brian.

 

Here's one I made for someone last month. This is a copy of a design I had made before but with a slightly thicker grip. It is made out of Walnut.

 

[MusinkMan]

That's some crazy stuff, Salman! Really fantastic. What kind of tool/chisel/knife do you use to scoop out the insides like that? I'm thinking that this must be deliciously light in weight. Walnut isn't heavy to start with, and with so much of it's mass removed with the "scoop out", it must feel really nice in the hand.

 

Awesome!

[smk]

Thank you Brian. I used a Dremel tool with various carving bits. It could be done with gouges but I don't have any :-( .....yet.

 

I'm not a big fan of power tools for carving as they go too fast for my liking but there was no other way for this one. It wasn't too much of a problem though as I was copying an older design.

 

The holder is quite light and I really like the balance on it as pretty much all the weight is on the bottom end. I have made two of these and both are gone. I should make one for myself some day :-)

 

I'm busy with wrapping up a project that I can't wait to finish. I have a couple of ideas that I think will have interesting results. I'm hoping to get some time during the upcoming holidays. I need to put that Brass sheet you sent to good use.

 

Salman

[MusinkMan]

It does look awesome.

Yes, do put that sheet brass to use! I have been spending some time trying to refine my flanges. Dr. Joe and Nick D'Quanno have been helping me with this. It's sad that there are no remaining "instructions" on how to build a flange for an oblique pen holder. Of all the reams of material that Dr. Joe has (which is a considerable amount), he could find nothing at all on the topic. Now you know that this must have been a skill taught at the Zanerian, and the Gem, and all the rest of them. It's really sad that none of the information survived, so we get to figure it out on our own. :-)

Edited December 19, 2013 by MusinkMan

[MusinkMan]

Gotta add one more color to the collection.

Amber/yellow (for some reason the BBCode is not working as of the time I made this post).

 

Edited December 19, 2013 by smk

[smk]

Brian - fixed the bbcode issue for you.

 

It makes me sad when knowledge disappears like that. A lot of it is due to craftsmen keeping things close to their chest to keep their edge over the competition. I don't know how well that works for them but its a shame that the world is a poorer place for it.

 

So yes, we are left to figure it out all over again. I love threads like these where we get to share what we discover and keep it from being lost again.

 

Salman

[dhnz]

  On 12/19/2013 at 7:28 AM, MusinkMan said:

It's sad that there are no remaining "instructions" on how to build a flange for an oblique pen holder. Of all the reams of material that Dr. Joe has (which is a considerable amount), he could find nothing at all on the topic. Now you know that this must have been a skill taught at the Zanerian, and the Gem, and all the rest of them. It's really sad that none of the information survived, so we get to figure it out on our own. :-)

 

Is there really that much to making flanges? I've never done any work with metal, but I managed to make a serviceable (albeit not pretty) flange out of some brass sheet. The old flanges were nickel silver, and I assume the makers either bent strips to shape or used molten metal and a mold. The pens for sale these days have just as nicely made flanges as the old ones, so it's not a lost art by any means.

 

Do you really think they would have taught this at the Zanerian? I assumed most penmen and women would have just bought their flanges ready made. (I'm sure I've seen an old ad that listed flanges for sale.)

[Mickey]

Forming flanges is not that difficult (I've made a dozen or so, experimenting). The biggest problem is getting suitable metal. The most readily available brass H02 (half hard) is not stiff enough at suitable thicknesses (.008-.01"). Even H04 is questionable. H06 (extra hard) or H08 (spring) would be better, still adjustable but stiff enough to hold a set up.

 

I'm using H08 .008" phosphor bronze, which is stiffer than H04 .01" brass. Even so, I've started adding an extra layer of metal between the holder and curved section which actually holds the nib.

[hzsimms]

  On 12/17/2013 at 6:58 AM, MusinkMan said:

Couple of new ones...I scored some really superfine flame maple, and am continuing with the aniline dyes. These are the techniques used on really nice electric guitars (ala PRS, Tom Anderson, figured topped Gibsons, etc.). In fact, this flame maple I'm using is actually luthier wood, the best 5-AAAAA grade that I could find. Makes a really pretty handle!

 

One in orange, and one in green...

 

 

 

Beautiful work Brian! Aniline I presume?

[hzsimms]

  On 12/19/2013 at 6:09 AM, smk said:

Nice holders Brian.

 

Here's one I made for someone last month. This is a copy of a design I had made before but with a slightly thicker grip. It is made out of Walnut.

 

Salman, that is a truly remarkable display of carving! Wonderful!

[MusinkMan]

  On 12/20/2013 at 2:19 PM, hzsimms said:

Beautiful work Brian! Aniline I presume?

Thank you Howard! Yes, I ordered some aniline colors after my first experiment. It's a bit time consuming, but it really makes for a pretty pen. On another note, Jay tells me that you're coming along quite nicely with your penmanship! He's a good guy, I'm glad you hooked up with him. Anxious to see some of your writing!

[MusinkMan]

  On 12/20/2013 at 3:40 AM, dhnz said:

Is there really that much to making flanges? I've never done any work with metal, but I managed to make a serviceable (albeit not pretty) flange out of some brass sheet. Do you really think they would have taught this at the Zanerian? I assumed most penmen and women would have just bought their flanges ready made. (I'm sure I've seen an old ad that listed flanges for sale.)

Well, it depends. If you just want to stick a folded piece of brass at the bottom of a stick, I guess you could do that easily enough. But then you'll find that you have a couple of other concerns...how to shape it properly to actually fit the curvature of certain nibs. And of course there has to be some way to attach it to the bottom of the pen handle. Zanerian method you say? Hm...well, somehow there will have to be some little "wings" or "keys" fashioned to fit inside of a centerhole-and-slot on the pen handle. What's that you say??? It needs to be at a specific angle in order to align the penpoint correctly? Hmmm, that won't happen automatically?

 

As with most things that seem simple enough at first, they really can get complex once you try to make them and fit them all together properly. And yes, there were companies that sold flanges back then, but still the students did not always use "bought flanges". If you look at the Don Tate collection, you will probably notice that many of those pen staffs appear home made (and some even look like junk). But these were all owned and used by pen masters so I imagine that they were set up very well, despite their appearance. Did they use pre-bought flanges? Perhaps, but probably not in all cases (just as in the case of liquid inks vs. ink sticks, many chose to grind their own inks rather than purchase the liquid stuff). I would think that the Zanerian, Albany, Gem, and all of those schools would have taught their aspiring penmen how to fashion and properly set up a flange, although I don't really know. There simply is no information remaining on it. As for me...I have to build my own, because there are no more "pre made" flanges available for me to order. LOL

[dhnz]

  On 12/20/2013 at 5:43 PM, MusinkMan said:

Well, it depends. If you just want to stick a folded piece of brass at the bottom of a stick, I guess you could do that easily enough. But then you'll find that you have a couple of other concerns...how to shape it properly to actually fit the curvature of certain nibs. And of course there has to be some way to attach it to the bottom of the pen handle. Zanerian method you say? Hm...well, somehow there will have to be some little "wings" or "keys" fashioned to fit inside of a centerhole-and-slot on the pen handle. What's that you say??? It needs to be at a specific angle in order to align the penpoint correctly? Hmmm, that won't happen automatically?

But the flanges (I think they used to call them "tins") are just folded pieces of brass or nickel silver! And the concerns you mention are just questions of how you shape the metal. Flanges are made to fit one nib (usually the standard size) and the wings are just 90-degree bends with the metal cut close to those bends. Because I don't do metalwork, I don't know the best way to shape the flanges for the nibs, but I'm sure a post on a metal-working forum would provide you with the likely method that was used. As for the angle of the pen point, if you're talking the horizontal angle to bring the point to the middle of the holder, that's simply a matter of cutting the strip for the right-size nib (and most would have been made for Gillott-size nibs). Some Zanerian flanges had a corner of the back of the flange turned up to provide a stop for the back of the nib, so that it was precisely positioned. The vertical angle is achieved as now, by bending the flange slightly up when in position. There are a few things to take into consideration, but I don't see that there's a huge mystery to their making or that it's disappearing knowledge. It strikes me that the flanges are basic compared to the holder, and yet there are plenty of people (including yourself) making holders as well as they ever were. Likewise, the flanges provided with pens today are as well made and look the same as the old ones.

 

Remember also that the Tate collection represents but a tiny proportion of business school students and they belonged to the ace penmen – exactly the people that you'd expect to make their own, but if they made their own flanges I suspect that, like me, they were able to do so after having looked at a bought one.

 

I'm sure the schools taught students how to adjust their flanges, but to build them? That seems unnecessary. Perhaps if you could tell us what about making flanges is a still a mystery to you, I could understand why you think the information has been lost.

Edited December 20, 2013 by dhnz

[smk]

  On 12/20/2013 at 2:21 PM, hzsimms said:

Salman, that is a truly remarkable display of carving! Wonderful!

 

Thank you Howard. Your comment is much appreciated :-)

 

S.

[MusinkMan]

  On 12/20/2013 at 9:07 PM, dhnz said:

But the flanges (I think they used to call them "tins") are just folded pieces of brass or nickel silver! And the concerns you mention are just questions of how you shape the metal. Flanges are made to fit one nib (usually the standard size) and the wings are just 90-degree bends with the metal cut close to those bends. Because I don't do metalwork, I don't know the best way to shape the flanges for the nibs, but I'm sure a post on a metal-working forum would provide you with the likely method that was used. As for the angle of the pen point, if you're talking the horizontal angle to bring the point to the middle of the holder, that's simply a matter of cutting the strip for the right-size nib (and most would have been made for Gillott-size nibs). Some Zanerian flanges had a corner of the back of the flange turned up to provide a stop for the back of the nib, so that it was precisely positioned. The vertical angle is achieved as now, by bending the flange slightly up when in position. There are a few things to take into consideration, but I don't see that there's a huge mystery to their making or that it's disappearing knowledge. It strikes me that the flanges are basic compared to the holder, and yet there are plenty of people (including yourself) making holders as well as they ever were. Likewise, the flanges provided with pens today are as well made and look the same as the old ones.

 

 

 

I already know all that, but thanks. I'm literally working with Dr. Joe Vitolo and Nick D'Aquanno on refining the shapes and angles of the nibs. It's no biggie except to a guy like me who actually has to make them and custom fit them to custom pen handles. There are many elements to fabricating a proper flange that you are glossing over. As you said, you do not know about metal working so it may seem like an easy task to you. Well, everything becomes "easy" once you know how. Getting proper angles, proper canting of the flange, proper size of the flange, etc. is not as easy as you might think, especially when consistency is required from staff to staff. I could take the tack you mention in your first statement, that it's "just a folded piece of brass or silver". But that would sort of like saying that writing Ornamental Penmanship is no big deal because it's just spreading some ink on some paper.

 

Once a formula and method are finalized, then the actual fabrication becomes an easy matter, it is true. But honestly, just bending over a piece of brass and bending out two "wings" at 90 degrees will not likely result in a very good writing instrument.

 

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all, because I certainly am not. But please realize that my desire is to consistently build custom oblique pen staffs to the highest quality that I can; and I am always looking for ways to improve. Even slight ways. Trust me, there is much more to hand-fabrication of a flange than you think. I wish that it was as easy as it seems to you; where I could just fold over a piece of brass, bend it into a semi-circle with needle nose, and bend some 90 degree wings in the end. I promise you bro...I've been there done that many many times, and except for the occasional "lucky shot", a flange made like that often ends up so bad that it's un-useable.

Edited December 21, 2013 by MusinkMan

[smk]

I'm with Brian on the flanges. They seem simple enough but there are nuances to them. I'm sure people who were making them on a regular basis did learn a trick or two as they got along.

 

For example, one thing I learned was that once the semi-circle part is done, if I hold the two sides tightly together when making the sharp bend at the end of the curved part, I'll get a smidgen more gap at the top of the curve than on either side. This results in the nib being held in place in the middle from the bottom while the sides are held from the top. For my purposes this results in a flange that allows for a wider range of adjustments with relatively little bending than one that has a uniform gap all around. The difference is very small and not really noticeable when the nib inserted but it is visible in the bare flange. I now build my flanges by hand rather than by pressing them into shape in a vice.

 

Little things like this sometimes make a difference. I'm not even sure if what I found just by accident is even a good way to make flanges, it works for me but it would be good to know if something like this was written by some craftsman.

 

S.

[dhnz]

  On 12/21/2013 at 2:59 AM, MusinkMan said:

 

As you said, you do not know about metal working so it may seem like an easy task to you. Well, everything becomes "easy" once you know how. Getting proper angles, proper canting of the flange, proper size of the flange, etc. is not as easy as you might think, especially when consistency is required from staff to staff. I could take the tack you mention in your first statement, that it's "just a folded piece of brass or silver". But that would sort of like saying that writing Ornamental Penmanship is no big deal because it's just spreading some ink on some paper.

 

Once a formula and method are finalized, then the actual fabrication becomes an easy matter, it is true. But honestly, just bending over a piece of brass and bending out two "wings" at 90 degrees will not likely result in a very good writing instrument.

 

I apologise if you thought that I was saying that it's easy to make a nice flange or that I was belittling the work done by penmakers today. On the contrary, as I say, the flanges I've seen today are every bit as good as any on the old penholders I have, which is why I don't think it's a lost art and won't be as long as people like you are making penholders. (I actually reckon the flange that comes with the PIA hourglass is much better than many of the old flanges.) I'd raise the same objection if anyone were to suggest that making penholders is a lost art or that the lack of instructions for them has detrimentally affected modern penholders. I presume you didn't need instructions to make your penholders, so I am interested in what information you would like to have about the way they used to make flanges.

 

Incidentally, if students of business schools were taught to make their own flanges, wouldn't that imply that they were not regarded as that difficult to make (after all, these were people looking for a career in an office, not in metalwork)? Having said that, the ugly looking flange I made for myself was just a bent strip of brass with two wings. (Maybe I should have made an Excelsior flange – they don't have the wings.) I certainly wouldn't sell it or hold it up as any sort of example of the art of flange making, but it did work just fine. And, to be brutally honest, the flange that came with the holder I bought from Bill Lilly is no flasher than mine, being made out of thin brass sheet, and in fact the nib sits further out from the holder than I'd prefer and the point of a standard size nib won't reach the centreline of the holder. Given that he was at the Zanerian, perhaps you could ask Bill if they taught flange making. (I assume he's still alive; I haven't read that he's died.)

 

You mentioned getting the cant right. By that, do you mean the vertical angle? If so, does that mean that you are supplying your penholders with the flange set to an angle, rather than horizontal? Do you ask the buyer what nib they're going to be using it with and adjust to that? The one problem I have with the PIA hourglass is that it's angled for engrosser's rather than ornamental, which I presume reflects Joe Vitolo's preferences.

[MusinkMan]

  On 12/21/2013 at 7:32 AM, dhnz said:

I apologise if you thought that I was saying that it's easy to make a nice flange or that I was belittling the work done by penmakers today. On the contrary, as I say, the flanges I've seen today are every bit as good as any on the old penholders I have, which is why I don't think it's a lost art and won't be as long as people like you are making penholders. (I actually reckon the flange that comes with the PIA hourglass is much better than many of the old flanges.) I'd raise the same objection if anyone were to suggest that making penholders is a lost art or that the lack of instructions for them has detrimentally affected modern penholders. I presume you didn't need instructions to make your penholders, so I am interested in what information you would like to have about the way they used to make flanges.

 

Incidentally, if students of business schools were taught to make their own flanges, wouldn't that imply that they were not regarded as that difficult to make (after all, these were people looking for a career in an office, not in metalwork)? Having said that, the ugly looking flange I made for myself was just a bent strip of brass with two wings. (Maybe I should have made an Excelsior flange – they don't have the wings.) I certainly wouldn't sell it or hold it up as any sort of example of the art of flange making, but it did work just fine. And, to be brutally honest, the flange that came with the holder I bought from Bill Lilly is no flasher than mine, being made out of thin brass sheet, and in fact the nib sits further out from the holder than I'd prefer and the point of a standard size nib won't reach the centreline of the holder. Given that he was at the Zanerian, perhaps you could ask Bill if they taught flange making. (I assume he's still alive; I haven't read that he's died.)

 

You mentioned getting the cant right. By that, do you mean the vertical angle? If so, does that mean that you are supplying your penholders with the flange set to an angle, rather than horizontal? Do you ask the buyer what nib they're going to be using it with and adjust to that? The one problem I have with the PIA hourglass is that it's angled for engrosser's rather than ornamental, which I presume reflects Joe Vitolo's preferences.

Oh bro, no apology needed. I just wanted to point out a couple of things that maybe you hadn't thought of. As you pointed out, many (probably most) of the older flanges were made by mechanized equipment in factories. That is not an option for us today, there are no factories that churn these things out for us (at least none that I could find). So I had to find a way to make them myself. I could not spend 2-3 hours on each flange; that would not feasible if one is to sell for any kind of profit at all. So in building and making flanges, I started just as you described...making very rough looking (yet somewhat functional) devices to hold the nib at an oblique angle. But as time passed and I wrote with them more and listened to other more knowledgeable penmen, I began to realize that there were many details and personal idiosyncrasies that I had not considered. Unfortunately there is not a "universally correct" flange angle/cant/size/shape/design. Your question about asking the buyer what nib they are going to use, not usually. I usually include a Zebra G nib with the pen (ala Michael Sull), and I have things adjusted for those. However, sometimes the customer asks for something specific...maybe a Gillott 303 or a Leonardt Principal, and I adjust the flange to accommodate those before shipping.

 

There are quite a few aspects to "tuning" or "setting up" the flange by the penman, and there must be sufficient "extension" of the brass between the handle and the "arc" to allow this. It is basically a series of slight bending of the flange in order to position the nib at the angle of preference. This "extension" cannot be too great or the nib will stick out too far from the staff, causing a "too severe" angle of the nib. This distance is of course governed by the placement of the little 'wings' that slip into the mounting hole/slot. Sounds easy enough, but we are talking about very small increments here. It doesn't take much to make a big difference in the whole "setup/angles" of things. And it doesn't take much of a difference to make the whole thing un-useable and un-fixable, and destined for the trash can causing me to start again from scratch. I won't go into all of the headaches, but I promise you, it's more tedious than it appears, and certainly a lot more to it than doubling up a piece of brass and bending out a couple of wings & slipping it in. If I did it like that, everything would be unacceptably inconsistent and most would be unusable (or at the very least would be unpleasant to use). It's like everything in life...once you learn which pitfalls to dodge, things become much easier...but when there are no instructions or notes from the old masters, one has to bumble through; learning from trial and error. A time consuming and frustrating endeavor. :-)