What Liquefied This Sac?

[MKeith]

Richard,

 

Please don't think I was implying anything as I realize EVERFLO ink is safe. I guess if the difference between the formulas were compared we might have some answers to some of these problems. Hopefully, we have a chemist or chemical engineer on FPN who will actually conduct an experiment with the proper controls in place, to separate truth from speculation. In the meantime I will stay away from the "questionable" inks in my vintage pens with sacs. Between Waterman, Pelikan, Sheaffer and Diamine my color choices are covered.

[79spitfire]

  On 4/4/2013 at 12:57 PM, Ron Z said:

Their point is that you also have to have the effect of concentration of the liquid by evaporation. Don't forget to add rotating the material or container so that the sample is randomly immersed and then exposed to air, and then add random changes in temperature from 98 F in a pocket to room temperature with various ranges of temperature in between to simulate being held in the hand.

 

I'm out of resources.

 

I may be reading this wrong, but I'm getting a bit of sarcastic tone...

 

I never once doubted that you, or Richard have run into melted sacs, and that at some point the pens have had Noodler's inks in them. I'm getting frustrated that nearly every time a question is asked about a pen failure someone is pointing a finger at certain 'boutique' inks.

 

I've inadvertently done just what you describe with several different sacs, and several different inks, and in fact several different pens, lever fill, touchdown, and snorkel. I inked them and took them to work! I had one fail, a Snorkel. It was inked with a sample of Diamine purple I had.

 

My working theory is this: The failed sacs very likely are slightly different in their make-up than others. Latex in it's natural state is water soluble, it is changed into rubber in the vulcanization process, which renders it highly water resistant. Surficants are chemicals which help water penetrate other substances by lowering the water's surface tension. Brightly colored inks need higher concentrations of surficants to flow properly.

Could a sac that was not vulcanized fully be resistant to 'normal' inks but more susceptible to failure when highly colored inks are used, due to the extra surficants used?

 

So far I have failed at proving or disproving anything. Everything is hand made (to an extent) and subject to human error. (including my 'experiments') I have proven to my satisfaction that it's not as simple as ink-x or ink-y, or sac-x, which is the only one I had to subject to experimentation.

 

My conclusion is as I stated earlier, it's a roll of the dice, I'm just going to use and repair as needed. I would recommend the same of anyone else.

[Shaporama]

I came across this comment while reading the Pelikan UK website for an unrelated matter:

 

"Most of the colours in the Noodler's ink range can be used safely in your fountain pen, regardless of its make. The two Baystate colours (Baystate Blue and Baystate Corcorde Grape) will stain your pen if they are left on any part of it without being cleaned off before it dries.

 

The dried ink can be removed with bleach but, as prevention is better than cure, cleaning the ink off when it is wet is easier. It is probably advisable to refrain using either of these two inks in expensive and favourite pens."

 

What interest me most is that admonition in the last sentence. Although they are not addressing the sac melting issues specifically, nonetheless a major pen maker has gone public with its unease about some of Noodlers most popular inks.

[mhosea]

  On 4/5/2013 at 6:39 PM, Shaporama said:

Although they are not addressing the sac melting issues specifically, nonetheless a major pen maker has gone public with its unease about some of Noodlers most popular inks.

 

The staining ability of Baystate Blue is legendary. I don't think anybody who is familiar with Noodler's inks and including at least Baystate Blue would take issue with what is written there. Note that the Baystate inks are advertised by Noodler's to be '"exclusive to themselves" in behavior as an ink family'. If the Baystate inks are melting sacs, then we are wasting our time thinking about Noodler's Inks in general. I'll be glad to toss a sac fragment in Baystate Blue, if you like. I have a sample, and I really don't plan to use it. A page written in BSB is eye-searing. Even if there were no risks at all, I couldn't take it.

[Ron Z]

I have heard similar comments from other pen company repair people. I do talk to a number of them.

[viclip]

  On 4/5/2013 at 7:30 PM, mhosea said:

  On 4/5/2013 at 6:39 PM, Shaporama said:

Although they are not addressing the sac melting issues specifically, nonetheless a major pen maker has gone public with its unease about some of Noodlers most popular inks.

 

The staining ability of Baystate Blue is legendary. I don't think anybody who is familiar with Noodler's inks and including at least Baystate Blue would take issue with what is written there. Note that the Baystate inks are advertised by Noodler's to be '"exclusive to themselves" in behavior as an ink family'. If the Baystate inks are melting sacs, then we are wasting our time thinking about Noodler's Inks in general. I'll be glad to toss a sac fragment in Baystate Blue, if you like. I have a sample, and I really don't plan to use it. A page written in BSB is eye-searing. Even if there were no risks at all, I couldn't take it.

You had mentioned that Baystate Blue is basic (on the pH scale) in one of your earlier posts. That reminded me of a problem faced by the Parker laboratory while developing fast drying inks for use in the hooded P51. Their new fast drying inks were basic, as distinct from the usual acidic variety. Parker found that their basic inks resulted in premature sac failure when used in other pens. Just wondering...

[psfred]

The test is on! Replaced the diaphragms in my two "51"s tonight with fresh ones from The Pen Sac Co. with one in reserve.

 

They appear normal, not sticky and cut properly to fit.

 

One pen was filled with Ottoman Azure as it had been when the diaphragm failed, the other with Polar Blue. The latter pen had acquired a habit of easily filing the cap with ink if repeatedly uncapped nib down (as when doing crossword puzzles), so the failure may have been earlier than when the pen dumped ink out the filler.

 

Peter

[nerdvana_us]

I discovered something interesting last night as I was preparing a couple of pens to ship down to my mother, which might add some value to this thread. We keep a sample vial full of JB's Perfect Pen Flush on hand to keep the rest of the bottle clear, and Noodler's Black is a staple around our house. Well, when I pulled the vial out of the desk drawer, I was greeted by this:

http://inked.nerdvana.us/misc_images/Pen_Flush_Bottle.jpg

 

 

Now, I make it a point not to wrench down the lid so as to prevent just this occurrence. What's really interesting is that we also keep 2 additional vials labelled "Post-Flush" and "Final Flush" which keep the solution progressively clearer, and neither of these are exhibiting the same symptom. So that's started me wondering if there's not some interaction between the two formulations which could be causal to the discussion at hand.

 

Believing wholeheartedly in the scientific method, I now have an experiment set up with 3 brand-new vials. One contains 5ml of pure Pen Flush, the second has 4.5ml Pen Flush to 0.5ml of Noodler's Black, and the third is filled with 4.5ml Pen Flush and 0.5ml of Diamine Sargasso Sea (a random non-Noodler's ink that fell readily to hand). I'll see what, if anything, comes of this over the next 1-3 months, and will report back with any findings of significance!

 

Meanwhile, I ordered a bottle of Mont Blanc Black with which to load my sac & diaphragm-filled pens (ended up with Mystery Black, and am not impressed with the shallow well in the new Boot bottle design, but that's a matter discussed in my Amazon review).

[mhosea]

  On 4/5/2013 at 7:30 PM, mhosea said:

I'll be glad to toss a sac fragment in Baystate Blue, if you like.

 

FYI, I did that back then and just checked it. I thought something might have happened because I couldn't locate it in the vial, so I dumped the vial out, but it turned up. It was still in good condition, very elastic. I'm out of BSB, so I transferred the sac fragment into a vial of Bad Blue Heron. I know it's not pure BBH, as I'm sure I diluted it. I may also have added a trace of dish soap, but I just can't remember because I don't use that ink--too much hard starting and nib dry-out, and the color was never quite what I wanted, anyway. If I added anything it was part of a last ditch effort to like using it.

[mhosea]

OK, folks, I have a positive result now. I just checked the sac fragment I dropped into (not pure) Bad Blue Heron 4 days ago, and under magnification, I can see that it is significantly degraded versus the control. This is the sac fragment that spent several days in Baystate Blue before. The material is showing tiny blisters over all surfaces under magnification. I regret that I did not examine it under magnification after removing it from Baystate Blue, but it didn't feel like it does now. IIRC, the Bad Blue Heron was diluted with several ml of distilled water and adulterated with a tiny drop of dish soap (in about 80ml of ink). What I would like to do now is to try to replicate the result with pure BBH and Baystate Blue, one experiment with just BBH, one with just Baystate Blue, and one with the two in sequence. However, I do not have any BSB, and my BBH is unique (though the dish soap might be relevant). I don't think I will conduct these experiments, so if anybody wants to pick up the ball, be my guest.

 

I just re-examined the fragment that has been in Noodler's Black for all this time, BTW, and it appears to be in perfect condition, same as the control.

 

So there you have it.

Edited April 18, 2013 by mhosea

[FarmBoy]

The phase space of this problem is much to large unless some basic ingredient lists are provided for the various inks and cleaners used alone or in combination that result in the observed sac decomposition.

 

I would like to again suggest that a single component may not be the cause but instead it may be a combination of agents acting together that causes the failure. One component likely comes from ink. I suspect the other could come from a cleaning regime or another ink.

 

The list of ingredients is important. To say ink X is causing the problem is missing the real cause. We need to say XX in combination with YY react in such a way that premature sac failure can result in certain sacs. Then we need to state which inks/cleaners/potions have XX and YY.

 

I can make latex rubber fail, I'm not sure any of the compounds I would use to induce failure exist in inks.

[mhosea]

  On 4/18/2013 at 4:35 AM, FarmBoy said:

The list of ingredients is important. To say ink X is causing the problem is missing the real cause. We need to say XX in combination with YY react in such a way that premature sac failure can result in certain sacs. Then we need to state which inks/cleaners/potions have XX and YY.

 

I can make latex rubber fail, I'm not sure any of the compounds I would use to induce failure exist in inks.

 

In all likelihood, however, we will never have the ink ingredients list. If Noodler's Inks are part of the equation, there's no path to understanding and fixing the problem that does not go through Nathan Tardif, the man with the list of ingredients of the inks. The first order of business is to convince him that there is a problem to fix.

[Colourfingers]

  On 3/21/2013 at 12:30 AM, Fiddlermatt said:

I recently acquired a Sheaffer Snorkle from a member on the forums here. I filled it up with Platinum Aurora Blue, and it wrote wonderfully. Later, I flushed it thoroughly and inked it with Noodler's Black for school-work. However, after two or three sentences it would stop writing. I gave it the water test, and it would not suck up or expel water except a few drops at a time. Today I opened it up and saw black ink on EVERYthing. The spring, sac protector, and piston rod were coated in it. I also saw something sticking out of the holes of the sac protector--it turned out to be a liquefied sac. What could have caused this? Here's a picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/kingmog/DSCN05971_zps3196606d.jpg

 

It was Witchcraft, "Witchcraft I tell you".

There are evil doings afoot. My milk has just turned sour and I don't even have any.

[Dr.Grace]

  On 4/18/2013 at 3:07 AM, mhosea said:

OK, folks, I have a positive result now. I just checked the sac fragment I dropped into (not pure) Bad Blue Heron 4 days ago, and under magnification, I can see that it is significantly degraded versus the control. This is the sac fragment that spent several days in Baystate Blue before. The material is showing tiny blisters over all surfaces under magnification. I regret that I did not examine it under magnification after removing it from Baystate Blue, but it didn't feel like it does now. IIRC, the Bad Blue Heron was diluted with several ml of distilled water and adulterated with a tiny drop of dish soap (in about 80ml of ink). What I would like to do now is to try to replicate the result with pure BBH and Baystate Blue, one experiment with just BBH, one with just Baystate Blue, and one with the two in sequence. However, I do not have any BSB, and my BBH is unique (though the dish soap might be relevant). I don't think I will conduct these experiments, so if anybody wants to pick up the ball, be my guest.

 

I just re-examined the fragment that has been in Noodler's Black for all this time, BTW, and it appears to be in perfect condition, same as the control.

 

So there you have it.

 

It's already been reported that Baystate Blue can degrade certain materials. Also, Nathan Tardif himself cautioned against mixing BSB with other inks (even Noodler's). So I don't think this experiment actually showed that Bad Blue Heron itself is the problem or contains a material that by itself melts sacs.

[mhosea]

  On 4/18/2013 at 5:13 PM, Dr.Grace said:

It's already been reported that Baystate Blue can degrade certain materials. Also, Nathan Tardif himself cautioned against mixing BSB with other inks (even Noodler's). So I don't think this experiment actually showed that Bad Blue Heron itself is the problem or contains a material that by itself melts sacs.

 

I don't think that, either. When I said "there you have it", I meant there you have the report, i.e. the first report to my knowledge of any combination of Noodler's Inks being involved in an experiment with a control sample in place that has ever showed any sac degradation, and the only report I know of showing damage that should be easy to repeat. The control fragment was an adjacently cut piece of the same sac. No dubious hand waving about how other sacs from the same batch ought to be thought of as "controls" of some sort is required here. BSB was thoroughly rinsed off the sac fragment before transferring it. The fragment was dry prior to insertion in BBH, but residue of dried BSB would probably have remained on the latex, as it would in a pen after any reasonable flushing effort with water only, so I certainly cannot rule out that BSB exposure is a necessary factor. Without additional BSB, I cannot (re)test whether it is a sufficient factor, but I can test with BBH exposure alone. I am doing that now.

Edited April 18, 2013 by mhosea

[psfred]

The last sac I found turning gummy in a Snorkel was a Pen Sac Co. sac that had a couple fills of Skrip Blue Black (new, Slovenian) and one fill of Van Gogh Starry Night Blue. Wouddn't flush when I ran out of Starry Night, so I pulled it apart.

 

The sac was stuck to the protector, but only in the middle. Both ends were in perfect condition. It appears that the outside of the sac was getting brittle, the middle portion was slime, and the inside had been intact until I pulled it apart getting it out.

 

The condition of the sac makes me think the latex was improperly mixed and failed to vulcanize properly in processing. My pens stand nib up in a cup when not in use, the far end of the sac gets more ink exposure than the middle.

 

I find it hard to believe there is something in the ink that would deteriorate some sacs and not others -- I've had too many melt in the pen, unused.

 

Fiddlermatt: it's quite possible the sac was deteriorating long before you filled the pen with Noodler's black. Even a partial fill of ink will make a serious mess inside the pen if the sac leaks. Besides, of all the melted sacs I've had, not a single one was with Noodler's black! Polar Blue, Ottoman Azure, Starry Night (all "normal" inks), but not Black, Gallileo, Brown, Polar Brown, Sequoia, and so forth.

 

Peter

[Shaporama]

  On 4/19/2013 at 3:07 AM, psfred said:

The last sac I found turning gummy in a Snorkel was a Pen Sac Co. sac that had a couple fills of Skrip Blue Black (new, Slovenian) and one fill of Van Gogh Starry Night Blue. Wouddn't flush when I ran out of Starry Night, so I pulled it apart.

 

The sac was stuck to the protector, but only in the middle. Both ends were in perfect condition. It appears that the outside of the sac was getting brittle, the middle portion was slime, and the inside had been intact until I pulled it apart getting it out.

 

The condition of the sac makes me think the latex was improperly mixed and failed to vulcanize properly in processing. My pens stand nib up in a cup when not in use, the far end of the sac gets more ink exposure than the middle.

 

I find it hard to believe there is something in the ink that would deteriorate some sacs and not others -- I've had too many melt in the pen, unused.

 

Fiddlermatt: it's quite possible the sac was deteriorating long before you filled the pen with Noodler's black. Even a partial fill of ink will make a serious mess inside the pen if the sac leaks. Besides, of all the melted sacs I've had, not a single one was with Noodler's black! Polar Blue, Ottoman Azure, Starry Night (all "normal" inks), but not Black, Gallileo, Brown, Polar Brown, Sequoia, and so forth.

 

Peter

 

I am going to step back in to reiterate some of the facts about this pen before it was shipped to Fiddlermatt because there is no reason to believe that as Peter suggests, the sac may have started deteriorating at a much earlier time: 1] the sac had been recently installed by Ron Zorn who has not reported any sac failures that could be attributed to the manufacturer over the same period; 2] The only ink previously used in the pen was from a fresh bottle of Sheaffer Blue Skrip, I had been using the same ink in other sacs/pens from the same batch installed by Ron without incident; 3] the newly restored pen was inked once or twice than thoroughly rinsed and rested - the next filling was by Fiddlermatt using the Noodlers ink in question.

 

Since I joined FPN I have "listened" to a number of conversations where the common theme was the potentially destructive powers of certain Noodlers Inks. Until recently my interest in this topic was only in the abstract as I had never been a Noodlers customer. But this particular incident involved a pen that I knew quite well. The pen was healthy when it departed here last winter and when Fiddlermatt took possession of it. Shortly after being introduced to Noodlers Black ink for the first time it suffered catastrophic sac failure.

 

I am neither a scientist nor an engineer and I admit to being a relative newbie in the fountain pen universe but this chain of events has led my to draw my own conclusions about Noodlers ink: why take the risk when there are so many other alternatives out there?

Edited April 20, 2013 by Shaporama

[mhosea]

  On 4/20/2013 at 2:55 PM, Shaporama said:

I am going to step back in to reiterate some of the facts about this pen before it was shipped to Fiddlermatt because there is no reason to believe that as Peter suggests, the sac may have started deteriorating at a much earlier time: 1] the sac had been recently installed by Ron Zorn who has not reported any sac failures that could be attributed to the manufacturer over the same period; 2] The only ink previously used in the pen was from a fresh bottle of Sheaffer Blue Skrip, I had been using the same ink in other sacs/pens from the same batch installed by Ron without incident; 3] the newly restored pen was inked once or twice than thoroughly rinsed and rested - the next filling was by Fiddlermatt using the Noodlers ink in question.

 

 

The next filling he said was with Platinum Aurora Blue, not Noodler's Black. He has not disclosed how long Platinum Aurora Blue was in the pen. However, he implied that Noodler's Black only for about the time it took to write 3 sentences. Unfortunately, he has not seen fit to clarify the timeline for us, but AFAIK, rapid failure (on the order of minutes) after exposure to Noodler's Ink is unheard of even among those who hold Noodler's Ink in general responsible for many sac failures. That's why I conducted an experiment. Proving that Noodler's Black doesn't lead to premature sac failure within several months to a couple of years is a daunting proposition. I'm not up to that task because environmental factors and incidental exposures might play a role over the long term. OTOH, proving that latex doesn't go "poof" when exposed to Noodler's Black is another matter. It doesn't. Yes, I know about the "mysterious combination" hypothesis. Good luck demonstrating that trace amounts of any chemical remotely likely to have been present would be sufficient to turn Noodler's Black into something that melts perfectly good latex in minutes or otherwise reacts catastrophically with it in that amount of time.

 

For the record, I do think there may be a problem with some Noodler's Inks, alone or in combination with other substances, but I don't see the need to attribute every single failure to ink just because the inks used aren't on a short list of presumed safe inks. At least turn your attention to Platinum Aurora Blue here, anything that might have had more time to do the deed. Personally, I think it was just a bad sac, and I am not ignoring the batch argument. If the sac had turned gummy inside the protector for whatever reason, you simply had no way of knowing it. It's not like the pen wouldn't have filled.

Edited April 20, 2013 by mhosea

[Durham K]

This must be what happened to my Sheaffer TRZ slim converter with WHSmith brown ink. It turned to "goo". I now use it with a trimmed Parker cartridge tightly fitted into the section and will replace this with some NOS slim Sheaffer cartridges I bought recently (a bargain £5.21 for 3 packs of 6). As I refill most carts these 16 will out last my own use.

 

K

[Garageboy]

A while back, when someone mentioned BSB eating celluloid, I wanted to run some tests soaking a few coupons of material from American Art plastics and having them destructively tested to see if BSB affected the yield strength...

 

Time to do this with sacs?