Mrs. Stewarts Concentrated Liquid Bluing

[amper]

  On 4/7/2013 at 2:43 AM, Frank C said:

The article says that water solutions soluble Prussian blue can dissolve 14 kt. nibs. No thanks.

 

The language of what I've been able to find has all been somewhat ambiguous. The wording on the first page of the article seems to suggest that the problem might lie with the fact that there are two "soluble" forms of Prussian blue, the potassium form, and the ferric form that is dissolved in oxalic acid.

 

That said, cyanidation is used to extract gold in the mining process, but from what I have been able to find, I'm wondering if the problem with the gold nibs isn't that the copper is being attacked, rather than the gold. Either way or both, it may still destroy your nib, but the truth is far from clear. The cyanide ions should be far more strongly bound to the iron than to the gold or the copper, I think, and it's not an ionised solution, but a pigmented colloid, so the ferrocyanide shouldn't dissociate. The cyanidation process uses free cyanide.

 

Mind you, I am not an actual chemist.

 

Given that Mrs. Stewart's contains oxalic acid, I surmise that it's the straight ferric ferrocyanide type, rather than the potassium ferric ferrocyanide type. I wish I had a cheap gold-plated nib handy that I could use to test.

 

I can say this, however—using my bluing + gelatin ink worked fairly well, but when I added two drops of castile soap to the mix, it corroded (or at least discoloured) my steel Hunt 513EF nib. It also made the ink foamy and reduced its working properties, so I pitched that batch. I would have saved it for the laundry, but I only have the one small jar. Ah well, toilet cleaner it is!

 

I'm going to mix up another batch today, with less gelatin, perhaps 0.5 grams in 30 g of bluing.

 

The writing, on the other hand, is exceedingly water and abrasion resistant. I held a page under running water for a few minutes, then rubbed the page with my fingers, and really didn't disturb the writing at all. This is a good sign.

Edited April 7, 2013 by amper

[amper]

At the bottom of this page is a recipe for Prussian blue ink that essentially is exactly the same thing as Mrs. Stewart's, with gum arabic added. I don't like to use gum arabic, as it's highly water-soluble. It is, after all, the binder for watercolour paints. Gelatin or animal glues and shellac are far less immediately soluble in water. I've having difficulty sourcing a small amount of bleached shellac locally, though I may experiment with Damar resin.

 

There is also the fact that animal glues can be made waterproof with alum, though I've no idea how this might react with the Prussian blue or the oxalic acid.

 

http://www.mspong.org/cyclopedia/inks.html

 

"Triturate best Prussian blue, 6 parts, with a solution of 1 part of oxalic acid in 6 of water, and towards the end of 1/4 of an hour or so add gradually gum Arabic, 18 parts, and water, 280. Pour off clear."

Edited April 7, 2013 by amper

[amper]

So, today, I made up another batch. 30 grams of Mrs. Stewart's Bluing, and 0.5 grams of Knox Gelatine, as measured on my Salter Brecknell PB-500 scale. After a couple of hours, it was obvious that the gelatine wasn't going to fully dissolve at room temperature, so I immersed the sealed jar in a bowl of boiling water, and let it cool to ambient temperature. The gelatine is now completely dissolved and the ink has not gelled (my biggest fear). The gelatine concentration is approximately 1.6% by weight.

 

The ink doesn't foam when shaken lightly, doesn't smell bad, and has excellent working characteristics. It does seem to discolour a steel pen, but I can't be certain of the exact nature of the discolouration. It may be corrosion, it my be simple staining. In any case, from this point forth, I'm going to simply wipe the pen dry after each use (Hunt 513EF, by the way), and see how it goes. Writing on a cheap Ampad quadrille note pad, the ink has been extremely well-behaved. No matter how wet I leave the pen after dipping, it doesn't feather, it doesn't bleed, and it's remarkably waterproof. There is a small amount of undispersed pigment in the 1 oz. jar that I used to mix my sample.

 

I took a written sample and held it under cold running water for 1-2 minutes, abraded part of the writing with my finger, without damage or even any bleeding. I then held part of that page under hot running water for about a minute, with still no change. I blotted the page dry, and no ink came off on the paper towels. Given that I ran it under hot water, I doubt the gelatin is contributing much to the waterproofness.

 

So, by all measures, this is a useful ink. The questions about pen corrosion don't bother me, since steel pens are inexpensive, so the only real questions I have are concerning permanence. Will the ink fade? Will the ink damage the paper, the way iron gall inks can? Only time will tell, since I have yet to uncover any accounts of Prussian blue inks by conservators.

 

I will say, however, that were I to consider using this ink as my primary writing ink, and I am so doing, I would strongly consider adding some lamp black to the ink to darken it, and make a blue-black. I'm going to pick up a Platinum Preppy to try out some straight bluing, without the gelatine. Or maybe I'll even just use it *with* the gelatine, since it doesn't gel at this concentration.

 

Overall, I am extremely well-pleased. As you can see in the following sample, the quadrille lines washed away, but the ink didn't. The left page is written double-sided, the right page single-sided, and subjected to water torture.

 

[amper]

Another interesting article on Prussian Blue (first page free):

 

http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/1897/an/an8972200009

[FarmBoy]

I find this ... I'm ... This is among the ...

 

I'm at a loss for words.

 

I am a chemist though.

 

Vanadocene and cobaltocene are also a lovely color in solution.

[amper]

I've tested my new batch on:

 

Clearprint 100% rag drafting vellum

Crane's Thesis

Crane's Bond

Crane's Crest

Southworth 100% cotton "Exceptional Business Paper"

 

All papers show exemplary characteristics, save the Southworth, which once again confirmed my disregard for its lack of sizing (otherwise, it's fine). It makes every pen write dry and scratchy. All the other papers exhibit reasonable drying times and excellent line quality. On the Clearprint, I can write all the way down to an x-height of about 1/8" with perfect legibility, and even smaller with only minimal loss of clarity. This may, of course, be attributable to technique...

 

The Crane's Thesis is, as usual, my favorite of all the papers.

Edited April 8, 2013 by amper

[amper]

  On 4/8/2013 at 6:46 AM, FarmBoy said:

I find this ... I'm ... This is among the ...

 

I'm at a loss for words.

 

I am a chemist though.

 

Vanadocene and cobaltocene are also a lovely color in solution.

 

In my research, I've found many historical accounts of Prussian Blue ink with largely identical recipes: the pigment, oxalic acid, water, and a binder (gum arabic, shellac, animal glue). What did we do before the Internet? I guess I remember many hours spent at the NY Public Library and the NYU library digging through catalogues, microfiche, and old books...

 

I'm not a chemist, but I could have been. I'm a very smart girl, but for some stupid reason, I found physics more interesting in high school. Of course, the fact that in Chem class, I sat across from a girl who later became a famous actress didn't help my attention span.

Edited April 8, 2013 by amper

[mark e]

i dunno...call me crazy, but there's this thing i like to use in my fountain pens, it's called...uhhmmm...lemme think, what is that now...hmmm...oh yeah...FOUNTAIN PEN INK

[FarmBoy]

  On 4/8/2013 at 8:03 AM, mark e said:

i dunno...call me crazy, but there's this thing i like to use in my fountain pens, it's called...uhhmmm...lemme think, what is that now...hmmm...oh yeah...FOUNTAIN PEN INK

I'm willing to bet you drink your wine too.

[amper]

For the sake of the argument, I've done a test with the straight bluing (no gelatine), which will give me a somewhat better idea of how it will perform in a fountain pen. The results are surprising, to say the least. Also, I've done a bit more research on pigments, which will follow.

 

Images:

 

1. Straight Mrs. Stewart's bluing, Hunt 513EF pen, Ampad quadrille pad

2. Reverse of that page

3. That page, held under cold running water for 1-2 minutes, then hot running water for 1 minute-ish, then blotted dry twice with paper towel, still wet. Abrasion of a dark patch with my finger while wet produces only slight disturbance of the color.

4. That page, dried.

 

 

 

 

 

Now, here is a good link that talks about average pigment particle size, which shows that carbon black and Prussian blue have two of the smallest particle sizes of all pigments, at approximately 0.05 and 0.1 microns, respectively. That's 50 and 100 nanometres. I have seen another source claiming that Prussian Blue is at 10 nanometres, but I think this source is more trustworthy. If any pigment could possibly be safe to use in a fountain pen, it would have to be these two. I can't wait to get another Platinum Preppy to give this a run!

 

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/pigmt3.html

 

Alternate source (this is an HTML doc, but lacks the .html extension): http://www.sewanee.edu/chem/Chem&Art/Detail_Pages/Pigments/Prussian_Blue

 

This paper at the Royal Society of Chemistry reports a medium particle size of 100 nanometres, so I'm guessing this confirmes that size: http://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/2012/CE/c2ce25040c

Edited April 8, 2013 by amper

[mark e]

  On 4/8/2013 at 1:49 PM, FarmBoy said:

  On 4/8/2013 at 8:03 AM, mark e said:

i dunno...call me crazy, but there's this thing i like to use in my fountain pens, it's called...uhhmmm...lemme think, what is that now...hmmm...oh yeah...FOUNTAIN PEN INK

I'm willing to bet you drink your wine too.

 

oh, no...i drink my maker's mark---the wine is for bathing

[Anne-Sophie]

If a person new to fountain pen comes across that thread, a good rule of thumb is to use only fountain pen ink inside your fountain pen.

 

Experiments with other type of liquids should only be done with dip pens and cheap ones at that.

 

Chemical reaction are unpredictable and nib easily clogged!

[amper]

  On 4/9/2013 at 3:48 PM, Anne-Sophie said:

If a person new to fountain pen comes across that thread, a good rule of thumb is to use only fountain pen ink inside your fountain pen.

 

Experiments with other type of liquids should only be done with dip pens and cheap ones at that.

 

Chemical reaction are unpredictable and nib easily clogged!

 

Actually, chemical reactions are quite easy to predict, so long as you know all the components in the system.

 

If you do a little research, as I have done above, you will find that Prussian Blue inks have been used as fountain pen inks for at least as long as there have been fountain pens. I see little potential for greater harm than that posed by many other types of ink. Your recommendation is valid, to a point, but there is no such thing as an archival, permanent (from a conservation standpoint), waterproof ink that can be used in a fountain pen without any risk whatsoever.

[FarmBoy]

I'm still a chemist.

[Freddy]

Still fascinatin' forty plus days in..ain't it..

 

Fred

 

Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for the court?

 

Flower Belle Lee: No..I'm doing my best to hide it.... .

 

Flower Belle..what a euphonious appellation.

Easy on the ears and a banquet for the eyes.... .

~ Mr. Cuthbert J. Twill-ie ~

[McFortner]

I think that the Prussian Blue is such a nice color for FP ink. I just need a few dip pens to use it with.

 

[Dioxazine]

Yeah, I'm bumping this topic.

 

I've been using this Prussian Blue for a few weeks now, in a Lamy Safari and a Hero 329 (normally my Heroes can't even handle Noodler's Bulletproof inks, so I was surprised at my results)

 

I can't believe I didn't try this years ago! I found out that the bluing was much too thin to even adhere to a Brause Bandzug with the reservoir thing on it, so I thought I might as well just put some in a fountain pen and see what it did. So far, so good! There's been no SITB (there better not be, it's a type of cyanide), no clogging (not even in the Hero!), it's been very well behaved, and of course it is extremely lightfast, waterproof, and overall an EXCELLENT ink and color for $3/8oz.

 

The metallic insignia things on old Hero 329s are extremely prone to corrosion - this one is perfectly fine and clean. No corrosion on the plastic, steel, or anything. Even letting it sit in the Safari for a few days or so has no consequences. Except for the deeper, beautiful blue teasing me when it goes from rich to thin (but still legible - it also needs to cure for a moment).

 

It's been a most excellent letter-writing ink and goes well with non-photo blue pencil.

 

It's a lot like Noodler's Bad Belted Kingfisher, but extremely thin. It's kinda like my favorite ink, with some plusses over it (but it's not so rich, which is a minus), and of course, about half the price (when you consider Noodler's is generally best use diluted 1:1. That's the case with the Warden's inks and many others) and extremely easy to get.

 

I suggest we buy a whole ton and raise this company in the stock market, or however that works or something.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Dioxazine

[inkstainedruth]

I haven't read all the links, but overall this has been fascinating reading. Especially from someone who found HS chemistry class boring to the extreme. Possibly because there were only two other girls in the class, and a lot of the guys were all stinky from having just come from gym class -- because of a scheduling conflict (they declined to sign me up for a MATH class which was required for 4 years in NYS) I had to rearrange my entire schedule and ended up with chemistry at the end of the day). And possibly because the guy who sat next to me (and thus became one of my lab partners as a result) was a redneck jerk who smoked menthol cigarettes in his spare time between classes). And possibly because the teacher was a schmuck.

So, amper, have you tried the lampblack addition yet (and just what ARE the chemical components of lampblack -- which I have actually seen made at a calligraphy workshop/demo -- other than carbon? (Lampblack, for the uninitiated, is basically soot.)
BTW -- I've just started reading _The Disappearing Spoon_ which makes the Periodic Table a whole lot more interesting than my annoying chem teacher ever did.... The most clear memory of that class was when one of the two other girls (a senior) got accepted into the Air Force Academy -- still a novelty in the mid 1970s and the first from my high school -- so the jerk made a joke about her military aspirations. Then he looked at the third girl (who was wearing an army surplus coat because she was sort of hippie/outré -- I heard she eventually became a musicologist), made a joke about her, and then looked at me and said "Oh, and *you're* the foreign correspondent!" (my parents had a sufficiently low opinion of the school district and its "quality education" that my mom figured that in taking me and my brother along on cheap charter trips to Europe -- one country at a time -- we would learn as much, if not more).

I passed chemistry just fine and I think I did pretty well on the NYS Regents exam -- but it was an unpleasant enough experience to bypass physics altogether as a senior, and to not take any science classes in college; I took the bare minimum of required courses as a HS senior as it was -- only a half year of social studies classes, and only the English AP class was enough to make me actually take the exam (I liked Calculus but I sucked at integrals, but since I had a high enough grade from the first half of the year to be in the top 8 in the class, plus was in the National Honor Society, I was allowed to skip taking the final -- which was good because I probably would have flunked it -- and there was no way I was taking the AP exam). Instead, I hung out as much as humanly possible in the art department (Painting was a two period class).

Ruth Morrisson aka inkstainedruth

[Dioxazine]

Seriously, those of you who think putting some of this stuff in a [plastic and stainless steel] fountain pen are REALLY missing out. I just took some outside to write with the other day when the sun was out, and the color, transparency, and shading (on mediocre to Flight paper) was glorious. Seems that so long as you keep the pen and ink clean and sterile, and don't mix it (although I mixed some with a cyan+magenta blue with no ill effects, even after sitting around for a few days in a Noodler's Creaper) it's perfectly safe and non-corrosive. I don't know what it'd do to gold, but seriously, you should give it a shot.

 

All of a sudden, almost all of my other inks are not worth my time or money. I've been using this ink really fast in letter writing.

[WirsPlm]

Wow, interesting. I'll keep this in reserve for whenever I have a completely plastic/steel pen around again. Nice to know that we have options for even cheaper ink!