Invitation To Show Off Your Stuff...

[MusinkMan]

  On 3/10/2013 at 11:19 PM, palansil said:

dmd525: I like your handwriting. How fast do you write it? I find I can do italic calligraphy but when I try to use it as handwriting, it doesn't come out nearly as good as yours.

 

 

 

MusinkMan: Nice flex writing! My guess is that like anything else, it will just take practice to achieve the "antique-y" look you are going for. However, the writing in your post is something that I think few can achieve today.

 

 

 

Here is something I did for a FPN contest a while ago. (If you are interested, here is the original thread.) The text is Psalm 45 which was chosen since it has to do with pens and writing. Since I used an uncial script, I decided to write it in Latin. It was written with a Lamy Joy with a 1.5mm nib.

 

 

 

http://home.comcast.net/~palansil/008.jpg

 

Oh, dude. You have struck at something very near and dear to my heart. The style of old Medieval illuminated manuscripts. I love medieval writing and calligraphy soooo much. I noticed your avatar seems to be an illumination of gilded letters. Did you do that yourself? Respect!!!! Nicccceee!

[MusinkMan]

 

Ugggh...this phone camera is taking awful pics. I'm just too lazy to get out my little digital cam at the moment. Please accept my apologies.... :embarrassed_smile:

Edited March 10, 2013 by MusinkMan

[dms525]

  On 3/10/2013 at 7:55 PM, MusinkMan said:

  On 3/10/2013 at 7:44 PM, dms525 said:

Please note: I make no pretense of aesthetic merit. This is "handwriting," not "calligraphy."

 

 

David

 

 

Dang David! There is plenty of aesthetic merit there, whether you claim it or not! I thought it looked fantastic, man! Really really good! Do another if you have time. That was quite impressive!

 

What pen did you use on this? Really nice!

 

Thanks you for your too generous comments, MusinkMan.

 

That was written with a Pelikan M620 fitted with a B nib ground to a 0.75 mm cursive italic by John Mottishaw.

 

David

[dms525]

  On 3/10/2013 at 11:19 PM, palansil said:

dmd525: I like your handwriting. How fast do you write it? I find I can do italic calligraphy but when I try to use it as handwriting, it doesn't come out nearly as good as yours.

 

Thanks, palansil.

 

I wrote at "moderate" speed. This is my normal speed when writing italic with no focused attention to letter forms, spacing, etc. I should note that I did it without any "warm-up." I find that the quality of my writing is best (and this example is not my best) when I have warmed up by writing for an hour or more with focused attention to detail, then write with un-focused attention. I get into a trance-like state, and the pen writes without my having a sense that I am consciously directing it.

 

David

[dms525]

There is handwriting included, so I guess it's okay ...

 

 

David

[thang1thang2]

ANALYSIS TIME!

 

How does antique lettering achieve it's look? First, let's look at antique lettering that's a good example.

 

 

I chose this image because it clearly looks antique, yet it's not overtly pretty and skilled. In short, it's the handwriting that an average penman here could probably do with a month or so of practice.

 

1. The paper is faded with different colorations in the paper. The fibers have softened and this makes the paper more fragile

2. The ink has aged. It was written with a stark black ink, but it now looks almost like a sepia brown

3. The hairlines are very very thin, which lends to the idea that this was written with a dip nib, as I don't know any other nib that can produce such fineness

4. Conventional writing. They didn't write just to say "hey rob, what's up man? Can I leave this note here so you can pick up some eggs from da store, yo?". They wrote formally or not at all, in most cases

5. No lines of any sort. All their guidelines either faded with age, or were on separate sheets.

6. The justification is off. The lines neither start nor end at the same place every time

 

 

We move on to this next image. More skill, and longer, but still clearly antique

 

1. Again, paper is faded, and the ink is aged and faded to the point of illegibility almost

2. We now see an interesting characteristic. Ink blots from where the pen spilled more ink than necessary in certain spots. This almost never happens with fountain pens and again most always happens with dip nibs only

3. Very fine lines from dip nibs with subtle shading from where they naturally pressed a little harder on the downstrokes

4. Conventional writing once again. A good proper "dear" and "salutation"

5. While there are still no lines, the justification is much better. This letter is unusual in the fact that it has capital letters for every line (the sentences are only one width wide, and are not complex)

 

 

From what we can deduce so far, it seems like the biggest qualities to "ancient" writing is variable lines, super thin strokes, writing with a dip nib and faded ink on faded paper.

 

What happens when we take a page from the Universal Penman, however? This pre-dates everything else by over 100 years.

 

 

We have clear crisp lines, beautifully rendered on quality modern paper in quality modern ink (as this was reproduced for a book, after all). It looks somewhat ancient, but it almost looks computer generated, does it not? This reinforces the thoughts that antiquity is not based on the writing of the era, but rather the materials of the era. If it doesn't "look" like it's from a certain era, it probably isn't from a certain era, even if it actually "is" (such as the universal penman being from the 1700s, and the two samples before being from the 1800s)

 

To re-iterate, a dip nib with a sepia colored ink on gently stained high quality parchment would yield the best results, I think. Shading should almost never be used excepting in the capitals, but it should be used to create the most gentle of variations in the ink width. It shouldn't look like you're writing with a nail, but rather letting the nib to gently flex as it naturally would to create character in the words and writing.

[palansil]

  On 3/10/2013 at 11:51 PM, MusinkMan said:

  On 3/10/2013 at 11:19 PM, palansil said:

 

Oh, dude. You have struck at something very near and dear to my heart. The style of old Medieval illuminated manuscripts. I love medieval writing and calligraphy soooo much. I noticed your avatar seems to be an illumination of gilded letters. Did you do that yourself? Respect!!!! Nicccceee!

 

I've dabbled in calligraphy since my aunt and uncle gave me a kit when I was a kid. A few years ago, I was on vacation in England. On the way to Stonehenge, we stopped in Salisbury to see a copy of the Magna Carta. Also on display were other examples of various books and things. These turned out to be more interesting to me when I noticed that there were some "mistakes" - some of the letters weren't exactly the same size, some things were a little crooked, etc. It was then I realized "I can do that". I don't have anywhere near the skill of a medieval scribe but that's why I keep practicing. So, this is a long winded way to say that I love illuminated manuscripts too!

 

As for my avatar, it is my very first attempt at an illuminated letter.

[Stompie]

  On 3/11/2013 at 6:20 AM, thang1thang2 said:

 

Now thats what I'm talking about, right there!!!

 

The imperfection is what gives it character, individual character!

 

Yes, a perfectly written script like in UP is great, but it does not look like a person wrote it and I think that is what makes for despondancy, when you see that and no matter how hard you try, that little bump in the paper makes your line off set and you want to pull your hair out!!

 

Someone posted old notes from the USA cavalry and stuff. The handwriting was superb but you could still find flaws.

I often stop in at a local antique shop where they have an old plumbers quotation book. The handwriting is exquisite, but there are flaws to be found.

Too me, those flaws actually add to the beauty of the documents because they make them real! UP is to me a very nice book and full of good ideas but it is a print as far as I am concerned.

 

 

Am I ranting????? :roflmho:

[Stompie]

  On 3/10/2013 at 11:19 PM, palansil said:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~palansil/008.jpg

 

That is nice!

 

I spend hours going over old documents and manuscripts and I so enjoy the imperfections of the scripts because to me those are attainable!

 

I watched a thing on Donald Jackson and what got me most excited was to see the uneveness of some of his lettering, it was encouraging!

[Columba Livia]

I have been learning how to temper and cut quills. I like the fact you can shape the nib as you please, and so control how sharp it is, and the flexibility. The easy way the ink flows from, and the responsiveness of the quill is wonderful. They also work very well with iron gall ink. I made the slit a bit too long on this one, I believe, but it works all right.

 

"The Calligraphers Handbook" has a very detailed and comprehensive section on making and cutting quill pens, written by Donald Jackson.

 

http://i.imgur.com/bSF4sbc.jpg

[ZachWasniak]

  On 3/12/2013 at 2:06 AM, Columba Livia said:

I have been learning how to temper and cut quills. I like the fact you can shape the nib as you please, and so control how sharp it is, and the flexibility. The easy way the ink flows from, and the responsiveness of the quill is wonderful. They also work very well with iron gall ink. I made the slit a bit too long on this one, I believe, but it works all right.

 

"The Calligraphers Handbook" has a very detailed and comprehensive section on making and cutting quill pens, written by Donald Jackson.

 

http://i.imgur.com/bSF4sbc.jpg

I've got a Quill pen on the way to my house. Excited to use my first one.

[MusinkMan]

  On 3/11/2013 at 6:20 AM, thang1thang2 said:

ANALYSIS TIME!

 

How does antique lettering achieve it's look? First, let's look at antique lettering that's a good example.

 

To re-iterate, a dip nib with a sepia colored ink on gently stained high quality parchment would yield the best results, I think. Shading should almost never be used excepting in the capitals, but it should be used to create the most gentle of variations in the ink width. It shouldn't look like you're writing with a nail, but rather letting the nib to gently flex as it naturally would to create character in the words and writing.

 

I understand, and I agree with most of it...and don't actually "disagree" with any of it. It's only that questions remain in my head, I guess. I've often wondered if using a sepia or walnut-brown ink on a tea-dyed paper would actually look old. Not as in a "distressed look" old, but really actually "forgery" old? I was even going to give this a shot, but looking at examples of old writing impressed upon me that there were really super penman and penwomen back in the day. Some of them were not so hot, just as now...but many of them were. Not that they were trained calligraphers, they were just really good writers. One "advantage" those folks had over us, was the quality of penmanship training that they received. Not only that, but the training was with a dip pen which NOBODY receives unless they are enrolled in some sort of calligraphy class. With so many being well trained with dip pens, it's no wonder that so many unique little flourishes and "prettiness" appeared so often.

 

I've shared this with GClef as we tried to decipher some of the telltale signs of "authentically old writing". I will put up a couple of photos that are from an old autograph book from the 1880's. My daughter bought it at an antique store/flea market. Some of the signatures and writings are superb. Some not so good. Seems that most all of them have their roots in Spencerian. I had to mess with the exposure and the contrast in order to make some of it more visible in the photos. These are old writings from the 1880's.

 

They are interesting and fun to look at, if nothing else... Note the Spencerian base on these.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are others, but this gives an idea of what the little autograph book is like.

[MusinkMan]

Here I have a couple of other "old writings" that I'd like to show you guys and gals. The first one is an old handwritten advertisement by a chap named Perry Thomas who is giving writing/penmanship lessons. His writing is so tiny and hairlined, it's hard to read. Again I had to mess with the exposure and the contrast to make this show up in the photos.

 

Article for a writing School

I Perry Thomas profeser of the new System of penmanship A knowledge of which I propose to teach to those who may be my students in the Space of three days forward. Income deration of one dollar for each schollar paid on the last day of the School. Subscribers to furnish paper ink.

25, January 1834 Perry Thomas

 

 

 

In 1704, When the war was Raging between the English and French Spanish and Indians, A company of Indians entered the town of Deerfield Mop (Map?) killed and made captive of the inhabitants and burned every house but two. the door of one was of thick timber they cut through the Shutter. Shot through and killed the female head of the family. The house It is said with the Shutter of the door is yet Standing as a lasting monument of there victory.

 

 

 

 

One day after date I promise to pay or cause

To be paid unto Stanley Thomas as his order

The Sum of one cent Value__ Recd__ witness

my hand and deal this 27, January 1834 promise Commonwealth of Kentucky

ammondation condemnation

(not sure of this ending, seems to make no sense?)

 

 

 

 

As GClef pointed out to me...there is a huge difference in the x-height and the ascenders and descenders. The minuscule or lowercase letters are almost squashed they are so small...but the ascenders and descenders are tall and thin. The slant is way low too in some of them. I'm just looking for the little characteristics that give it "that look". To me, it's more than just the patina of the paper and the faded colors of the ink. The lettering is different, even difficult to read. I wonder if this was considered clear and "easy to read" back when it was written?

 

Anyway, see if you can read these...some are easy, some are hard almost to the point of frustration.

 

I hope you enjoy them....

Edited March 12, 2013 by MusinkMan

[MusinkMan]

  On 3/12/2013 at 2:06 AM, Columba Livia said:

I have been learning how to temper and cut quills. I like the fact you can shape the nib as you please, and so control how sharp it is, and the flexibility. The easy way the ink flows from, and the responsiveness of the quill is wonderful. They also work very well with iron gall ink. I made the slit a bit too long on this one, I believe, but it works all right.

 

"The Calligraphers Handbook" has a very detailed and comprehensive section on making and cutting quill pens, written by Donald Jackson.

 

http://i.imgur.com/bSF4sbc.jpg

 

Now THIS excited me, let me tell you! I have long wanted to give a try at cutting a quill and lettering with it. The way the old Medieval Monks did wayyyy back in the dawns of time. Anyone that knows me knows of my fondness for medeival European illuminated manuscripts. And I've been fascinated with the lifestyles of the medieval scribes and monks who spent so many hours writing, illuminating, preparing vellum, grinding their own colors, and...yes...cutting their own quills. I'm truly astounded at the quality that you achieved from the quills. What kind of feathers did you use? I have read that goose feathers are the best. I want to try this sooooo bad! Dude, thanks so much for posting this up. Really nice and super fascinating!

[thang1thang2]

What a wonderful autograph book!

 

  Quote

I understand, and I agree with most of it...and don't actually "disagree" with any of it. It's only that questions remain in my head, I guess. I've often wondered if using a sepia or walnut-brown ink on a tea-dyed paper would actually look old. Not as in a "distressed look" old, but really actually "forgery" old?

 

As for this, I do not know. http://www.wikihow.com/Make-Paper-Look-Old this link seems to suggest that staining paper and then cooking it really would make a very aged paper effect. What you might have to do to the ink, though, I don't know.

 

Edit: I'm guessing writing with an x-height of 1-2mm with the ascender/descender height being very very large would have another element of adding to the effect. I don't recall ever seeing looped ascenders or descenders either. They're all either swelled or "sticks"

Edited March 12, 2013 by thang1thang2

[Stompie]

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj229/Popsjill/pens/DSCN1284_zps64e6d135.jpg

[caliken]

  On 3/10/2013 at 8:38 PM, MusinkMan said:

.....trying to achieve a handwriting "look" from older days.

 

 

The earliest known fragment of the New Testament is from St John's Gospel and dates from the 1st half

of the 2nd century. It was discovered in Egypt and is known as The Rylands Papyrus and is in the John

Ryland's Museum, Manchester, England. It really is a fragment as it is less than 9cm high. As it is beyond value, it was decided not to have it on public view. I was given the job of producing a facsimile, and my version is on public display - the original being secreted away.

 

I had no access to the original, but was supplied with high-quality photographs. I obtained papyrus from

Egypt and produced the facsimile with black acrylic and very small brushes. The client was less concerned

about the overall shape, but, understandably very particular about the detail as my version had to look "authentic".

 

My wife says that I could have made a better living as a forger!

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Fragment650.jpg

Edited March 12, 2013 by caliken

[thang1thang2]

That looks awesome! I agree with her. What did you do to age the paper and the ink so that it looked old?

[MusinkMan]

  On 3/12/2013 at 10:02 PM, caliken said:

  On 3/10/2013 at 8:38 PM, MusinkMan said:

.....trying to achieve a handwriting "look" from older days.

 

 

The earliest known fragment of the New Testament is from St John's Gospel and dates from the 1st half

of the 2nd century. It was discovered in Egypt and is known as The Rylands Papyrus and is in the John

Ryland's Museum, Manchester, England. It really is a fragment as it is less than 9cm high. As it is beyond value, it was decided not to have it on public view. I was given the job of producing a facsimile, and my version is on public display - the original being secreted away.

 

I had no access to the original, but was supplied with high-quality photographs. I obtained papyrus from

Egypt and produced the facsimile with black acrylic and very small brushes. The client was less concerned

about the overall shape, but, understandably very particular about the detail as my version had to look "authentic".

 

My wife says that I could have made a better living as a forger!

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Fragment650.jpg

 

Well would you look at that! I won't say that I totally agree with your wife's ethics, so lets just say that they obviously selected the right man for the job! (tell your wife I'm only kidding of course). LOL

 

You know, this kind of work was something that would never have occurred to me as a "calligraphy job", but it makes sense. I mean really, who else would you call upon to produce a facsimile of 2k year-old writings. That's a very cool project, but I'll bet it was tedious as well. Did you have to cut/shape the papyrus as well as perform the lettering? That's dang impressive.

[MaddyMarcel]

Well here is my very ordinary little sample. Not calligraphic, just my everyday hand. Interested in your scholarly analysis!!

 

http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y449/MaddyMarcel/photo-85_zpse201498b.jpg

Edited March 13, 2013 by MaddyMarcel