Invitation To Show Off Your Stuff...

[Mickey]

The 354-358 were, last time I looked, available on ebay as part of a one gross assortment (c. 30 of each) for $30/box. This is not a bad price for just the 357s and 358s. The other 3 nibs are a bonus. I use the 356 routinely, but have not found much use for the 354-5. Though more delicate (softer), I don't think 354-7s are as sharp as the (modern) Principal, at least not in my hand. The 358 certainly isn't.

 

BTW, it's not that I don't like the fundamental style of the (arthur kehlen) card, I actually do like it. What I find problematic or excessive is the dynamic range of the performance. To my eye, it doesn't quite hold together. Was the original purpose of the piece to announce Arthur Kehlen or the penman's technique?

Edited December 31, 2013 by Mickey

[Columba Livia]

In this re-print of "FW Tamblyn's Home Instructor in Penmanship" I think that he got it just about right. The hairlines are fine, but not so fine that they can't be easily read, and the overall balance with the shades is perfect IMO. It is printed as black and white linework (unscreened).

 

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/Tamlyn500.jpg

I have that exact same book and the scan you have there has been image edited or altered by the scanner having the effect of making the lines appear thicker than they really are. Here is a scan which more accurately reflects the writing:

 

http://i.imgur.com/eFEmY6F.jpg

 

 

It looks to me like your scanner, or your image editing, is lowering the brightness and increasing the contrast on the stuff you scan. I've lowered the brightness and increased the contrast on this, and it looks similar to what happened to your scan of the book:

 

http://i.imgur.com/9plDeW3.png

 

It looks like the same thing is happening to your calligraphy, so I suppose that alteration is why some people might have troubles judging the quality of the hairlines.

Edited December 31, 2013 by Columba Livia

[caliken]

Edited March 28, 2014 by Ken Fraser

[Mickey]

I don't know if spidery hair lines are being forced on anyone. I think the fair question is whether they are a goal to be met for their own sake or as an indication of technique held in reserve. I think it's the latter.

 

In my professional life, being able to sing and be heard (unamplified) in a decent 3500 seat house (there aren't that many) simply made singing into good 2400 seat houses a lot more comfortable. In smaller houses, being loud was simply being loud, usually to the detriment of the performance. Learning where to center the throttle is part of artistic maturation. This, I believe, is true for any technical skill or gift. As the old joke went, 'I only showed enough to win the bet.' Anything more is in questionable taste.

[Columba Livia]

My posting of the Tamblyn example is very close to the original, black on white with no thickening of the lines. You may have been deceived by the slight enlargement. Your scan has a washed-out grey look.

 

My scanner reproduces my work very accurately and what you see, is what I've written.

 

Well, I have the book before me right now, and the white of the paper is not as white, nor the blacks as black as in your scan, so close it may be, but there is still a gap. Likewise with the rest of the stuff you upload: especially when comparing it with the videos you've posted on youtube, there has obviously been editing of the scan and/or some changes to alter the contrast and brightness to make the whites whiter and blacks blacker. I am not saying that this thing is bad, please note.

 

It is my belief that this alteration may be why some people have trouble judging the hairlines in your work. Altering the contrast and brightness of images affects hairlines and shades, I've noticed that from all the scanning I've been lately doing.

 

Also, you already posted that piece about "Flowers are the hieroglyphics of nature" here:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/254037-calikens-calligraphy/?p=279823

[dhnz]

All I was trying to say was that Mr. Fraser is a premier calligrapher. Broad pen and pointed pen alike. I respect him very much, he is kind and always helpful, and I did not appreciate that his words were being trivialized.

...

Dude, you really need to lighten up. I appreciate that everyone is passionate, but really. All this about the importance of hairlines. This thread is quickly escalating into something strange.

 

Brian, given that your original "be aware" comment was directed at me, it's hard to escape the conclusion that it is me that you are accusing of trivialising Ken Fraser's words. If this is the case, please point out where I have trivialised them. I hold different opinions to him, sure, but that is clearly not the same as trivialising his words. If that comment was not directed at me, I would appreciate it if you would clarify where exactly Ken's words were being trivialised.

As for your feeling that "the ultra-fine hairline is being forced down upon us all", how is this? Has someone come to your house and held a gun to your head, demanding that you attain thinner hairlines? As far as I can recall (without going back through all the posts), I am the only one (apart from you) who has posted positively about ultrafine hairlines, but I've always been at pains to state that this is a personal opinion. How can expressing a personal opinion be construed as forcing anything on anyone?

You may not realise it, but it was actually you that started off this whole discussion. My initial posts were in response to your post of 14 September that your "main goal now is to smooth out those hairlines, and to get them spider-web thin". You further said about Higgins that "Higgins Eternal has been a much more 'friendly' and enjoyable ink to me. I thought it was doing fine until I saw some 'real' hairlines in black ink. From some vintage samples of Lupfer's collection that I purchased on ebay. Wow...now THOSE guys weren't just messin' around." And, again, about Higgins: "I don't think it's the best for achieving the kind of thins I'm hoping to learn."

These are much the same things as I've been saying (Higgins is not the best for hairlines and most people now don't realise just how fine the old penmen got their lines), but for some reason when I say them I'm forcing fine hairlines on others or claiming they should be a priority.

[dhnz]

BTW, it's not that I don't like the fundamental style of the (arthur kehlen) card, I actually do like it. What I find problematic or excessive is the dynamic range of the performance. To my eye, it doesn't quite hold together. Was the original purpose of the piece to announce Arthur Kehlen or the penman's technique?

 

The purpose was both to announce Arthur Kehler and to promote Fox's technique. Card writing was seen as very demanding of the penman and an advertisement of their skill. To me, it's like the scene in the book (and film) of "American Psycho", where '80s Wall Street types are comparing their business cards for the best typeface, the best card, the best printing. And that's why I love the old handwritten cards – they really show what the artist and art was capable of.

[dhnz]

I have that exact same book and the scan you have there has been image edited or altered by the scanner having the effect of making the lines appear thicker than they really are. Here is a scan which more accurately reflects the writing:

 

...

 

It looks to me like your scanner, or your image editing, is lowering the brightness and increasing the contrast on the stuff you scan. I've lowered the brightness and increased the contrast on this, and it looks similar to what happened to your scan of the book:

 

...

 

It looks like the same thing is happening to your calligraphy, so I suppose that alteration is why some people might have troubles judging the quality of the hairlines.

 

Columba, your scan more accurately represents the image in my copy of the book and is a good example of why I always prefer to see calligraphy examples as halftones or photos – I find they just lose all the subtleties and nuances imparted by the human hand when they are reproduced as line art.

 

Dominic

[Mickey]

 

The purpose was both to announce Arthur Kehler and to promote Fox's technique.

Then to my eye, it fails utterly in the former, and succeeds in the latter, which in my world qualifies it as poor art.

 

A failed symphony with brilliant use of the bassoon is still a failed symphony. Bassoon players may love it, but probably few others.

 

Addendum:

 

Lest there be any confusion. There was no intent to insult in this post. dhnz and I admire exactly the same things in this card he posted, the layout, execution, and technical mastery. The discussion or argument, if one wants to see it as such, is what the definition or primary purpose of this particular card is. I see it as a superb display of technique but not as a particularly good functional object.

 

Were this a letter, and not just a card, I could easily spend days admiring the work and never read the content. Consequently, I might fail to notice that it was a foreclosure notice and thus lose my house.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Mickey

[fiberdrunk]

Wow, I can't believe I missed this thread! I've spent a pleasant hour or two enjoying everybody's writing samples. Thanks for starting the thread, Musinkman! (And by the way, I was just blown away at how far your Spencerian has improved since March... it really gives me hope that I'll get there, too!) Thanks for the compliments regarding my inks!

 

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that iron gall ink was eating up nibs. This is true, iron gall ink is quite acidic. As is black walnut ink. My solution has been to find gold-plated nibs. The only place I know where to find them is Kallipos in Germany. Iron gall ink not only shortens the life of metal nibs, but metal nibs also shorten the life of iron gall ink (both in the bottle and on the page). So either use a gold-plated nib or a feather quill for Spencerian to prevent this.

[schin]

Happy New Year everyone. I hope this new year will bring fresh perspective and end the unnecessary splitting of hair(lines)s over subjects regarding the art which we all agree is beautiful no matter what. We are all here to learn and have our different approaches to the learning and the outcome. What we deem 'superior' is different from person to person, but we can appreciate the overall beauty of ornamental penmanship and calligraphy in all its forms. It is not necessary to overanalyze another's personal style and approach. This thread has been very dynamic and informative to read and would be a shame for it to descend into nitpicking arguments. Let's respect each other and what we have to offer in this art and continue our own journeys to improvement.

Edited January 2, 2014 by schin

[schin]

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that iron gall ink was eating up nibs. This is true, iron gall ink is quite acidic. As is black walnut ink. My solution has been to find gold-plated nibs. The only place I know where to find them is Kallipos in Germany. Iron gall ink not only shortens the life of metal nibs, but metal nibs also shorten the life of iron gall ink (both in the bottle and on the page). So either use a gold-plated nib or a feather quill for Spencerian to prevent this.

 

Wonderful, how has your experience been buying from Kallipos?

[mvarela]

 

Wonderful, how has your experience been buying from Kallipos?

 

I've bought from Matthias a couple of times, and it's been great.

[fiberdrunk]

 

Wonderful, how has your experience been buying from Kallipos?

They're very nice and I've been happy with everything I've ever ordered from them. I only wish they were in the States! They always throw in a few other extra nibs to sample and play with when I order some. Nice folks!

Edited January 1, 2014 by fiberdrunk

[caliken]

 

 

Columba, your scan more accurately represents the image in my copy of the book and is a good example of why I always prefer to see calligraphy examples as halftones or photos – I find they just lose all the subtleties and nuances imparted by the human hand when they are reproduced as line art.

 

Dominic

The calligraphy I'm describing, is absolute black on a white background, in other words, maximum contrast. There are no subtleties or nuances to preserve, therefore linework achieves the most accurate reproduction.

 

Ken

Edited January 1, 2014 by caliken

[MINItron]

The examples of writing in this thread are awe inspiring, much better than my poor kurrentskrift. Though I will say my writing is far superior to what it was before I picked the fountain pen back up a month ago.

[dhnz]

It was mentioned earlier in this thread that iron gall ink was eating up nibs. This is true, iron gall ink is quite acidic. As is black walnut ink. My solution has been to find gold-plated nibs. The only place I know where to find them is Kallipos in Germany. Iron gall ink not only shortens the life of metal nibs, but metal nibs also shorten the life of iron gall ink (both in the bottle and on the page). So either use a gold-plated nib or a feather quill for Spencerian to prevent this.

 

Surely you limit yourself a lot, though, if you're going to use only gold-plated nibs or quills for Spencerian with iron gall ink? I've personally never found any problem with any of the IG inks I've bought or made – I just clean the nibs after use (not all that well, it must be said), and what has limited their life has not been the effect of the acidic ink on them but the strain on the tines caused by the creation of shades. In other words, I've seen no difference in life span using a carbon ink or an IG ink. Even if there was a notable difference, IG ink is such a nice medium to use that I would be more than happy to accept the shortening of a nib's life for the freedom to use whichever nib I wanted to. As for shortening the life of the ink, again, this is not something that would bother me; the ink lasts plenty long enough for me.

[caliken]

Also, you already posted that piece about "Flowers are the hieroglyphics of nature" here:

 

https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php/topic/254037-calikens-calligraphy/?p=279823

This pinned topic is a collection of my work and contains duplicates of postings made elsewhere.

Edited January 2, 2014 by caliken

[fiberdrunk]

 

Surely you limit yourself a lot, though, if you're going to use only gold-plated nibs or quills for Spencerian with iron gall ink? I've personally never found any problem with any of the IG inks I've bought or made – I just clean the nibs after use (not all that well, it must be said), and what has limited their life has not been the effect of the acidic ink on them but the strain on the tines caused by the creation of shades. In other words, I've seen no difference in life span using a carbon ink or an IG ink. Even if there was a notable difference, IG ink is such a nice medium to use that I would be more than happy to accept the shortening of a nib's life for the freedom to use whichever nib I wanted to. As for shortening the life of the ink, again, this is not something that would bother me; the ink lasts plenty long enough for me.

 

It's not limiting at all. I like to use what works. I guess this would depend on the type of iron gall ink that you're using, too. If you're using the commercial iron gall inks that are safe for fountain pens, those are going to be a lot less corrosive than traditional iron gall formulas meant for dip pens only. I notice a difference in flow and scratchiness of nib even after one session of writing with a metal nib. Sometimes I can file a snaggy nib back into shape, and I have an ultrasonic cleaner, but a metal nib does tarnish and break down rather quickly. There is a chemical reaction going on there between ink and metal. Gold-plated nibs last a lot longer, and I love the action of the Humboldt EF nib-- it's very flexy.

 

There's another consideration. Dr. Stark (a chemist in the 1800's) did extensive tests for 20 years on what made the best (as in the most stable and permanent) formula for iron gall inks. One of the things that shortened the life of an ink was a metal nib. If you want your projects to last (where the ink won't eat the paper in time), you need a correct formula (as in the correct ratio between gallotanic acid and the iron sulfate) and you need to avoid using metal nibs. (This is discussed in the book 40 Centuries of Ink by David Carvalho if you want to read more.) Some of my homemade traditional iron gall inks will be 4 years old later this year and none of them have dropped sediment yet. This is because I am very careful about observing these principles that Stark discovered. If you'd like to read more, I summarized these on the Open-Ink Wiki:

 

Principles for Stability & Longevity of Iron Gall Inks

 

eta: a variety of non-flexible gold-plated nibs aren't hard to find in the U.S. (only the flexible gold-plated nibs for Spencerian have been hard to track down). Our very own JBB here on FPN has wonderful non-flexible gold-plated nibs that I've been very happy with.

Edited January 2, 2014 by fiberdrunk

[Mickey]

 

Surely you limit yourself a lot, though, if you're going to use only gold-plated nibs or quills for Spencerian with iron gall ink? I've personally never found any problem with any of the IG inks I've bought or made – I just clean the nibs after use (not all that well, it must be said), and what has limited their life has not been the effect of the acidic ink on them but the strain on the tines caused by the creation of shades. In other words, I've seen no difference in life span using a carbon ink or an IG ink. Even if there was a notable difference, IG ink is such a nice medium to use that I would be more than happy to accept the shortening of a nib's life for the freedom to use whichever nib I wanted to. As for shortening the life of the ink, again, this is not something that would bother me; the ink lasts plenty long enough for me.

My experience is similar. The lifetime of a steel nib seems much more closely tied to initial sharpness and flexibility than to the ink. My stiffest nibs, the ones I use for every day writing, last at least twice as long as more flexible points. As extreme example, the Esterbrook 128 I used for signing Xmas cards this year barely survived 40 Spencerian signatures with gouache, while a Gillott 1068A will typically last at least that many pages of business hand using Old World IG. Misalignment made the 128 scratchy, while general wear eventually made the 1068A's line unacceptable broad. Physical wear and tear seem to me much more destructive than ink pH.