Invitation To Show Off Your Stuff...

[caliken]

  On 3/1/2013 at 12:58 AM, MusinkMan said:

what italic nib did you use for this? I have only one at present, a Brause Bandzug in 1.5mm. I toyed with it a little, but it didn't work out too well for me somehow. My cheap little Lamy Safari with a 1.5mm nib looked better, and I do realize that's probably because I'm so inept at an italic dip pen. Oh wait, I have a bunch of Speedball C's.

This was written smaller than it appears on screen. The x height was 3mm and the square-edged nib was a Wm Mitchell no.4.

 

Ken

[caliken]

  On 3/1/2013 at 12:58 AM, MusinkMan said:

To get these perfect slants and these excellent ascender heights to be so consistent, do you use guidelines or something? I'm thinking that I probably should be putting some kind of slant guidelines behind my page on my lightbox or something. That would sure help me keep consistency with slant...but I'll have to ask another dumb question...should I be working on the ability to do that without guidelines? I mean, is that considered "cheating" or "only for beginners" in the world of calligraphy?

 

I no longer use guide lines for slope, but I often draw pencil baselines as an insurance policy, in case my writing strays from the horizontal. The use of guidelines to control letter height and slope angle, is perfectly legitimate IMO and is in no way "cheating".

 

The vast majority of us need some assistance, especially when starting out.

 

We constantly see first efforts where the writing is all over the place. The simple discipline of guidelines usually makes all the difference.

 

There are many early manuscripts in which the guidelines have been left in, as part of the overall design with the writing being placed between the lines. There was a topic on this subject some time ago.

 

If I were you, I would use guidelines for as long as you feel it necessary. As I mentioned in an earlier post, with very complex flourishing for example, I draw it in light pencil and then draw the finished, shaded flourishing over the top. If it's a figure which I've drawn dozens of times then, of course, I draw it freehand from memory.

 

I didn't stop using sloping guidelines because it was considered "cheating" or only for beginners, but because it eventually became unnecessary. Having said that, If I were studying a new unfamiliar style, I wouldn't hesitate to use all and every guideline I could think of!

 

It's how it looks in the end, that matters.

 

 

Ken

Edited March 1, 2013 by caliken

[smk]

  On 2/28/2013 at 5:02 AM, MusinkMan said:

Salman, this is magnificent. It is the first I have seen of your work, although I knew it would be amazing due to the posts you have written. Although this is the first time I've actually seen it, I really like the looks of the Diwani calligraphy. It is beautiful work, and the colors make it even more so. Thank you so much for posting. I was hoping you would post something in this vein. Thanks also for the description of the text and the clever arrangement and layout within the word Allah. Beautiful work.

 

Thank you MusinkMan. Diwani is a lovely flowing script that allows itself to be manipulated in interesting ways. Here's MusinkMan written in Diwani script - no fancy manipulation here though :-)

 

 

And here's Fountain Pen Network in the same script:

 

 

 

  On 2/28/2013 at 9:11 AM, caliken said:

A beautiful rendition of a beautiful word. Thanks for posting.

 

Ken

 

Thank you Ken. Your appreciation (and even criticism :-) means a lot to me.

 

  On 2/28/2013 at 4:49 PM, medicalcpa said:

  On 2/28/2013 at 1:59 AM, smk said:

 

I love this Uncial - this is my favorite so far. Thanks for sharing this.

 

Salman

 

Coming from someone whose work I've long admired in secret, this means a lot to me. Thank you.

 

medicalcpa - your work deserves it. Uncial, while appearing a simple script, does have nuances that are easy to miss. I like a lot of things about your composition.

 

Salman

[MusinkMan]

  On 3/1/2013 at 6:01 PM, smk said:

  On 2/28/2013 at 5:02 AM, MusinkMan said:

Salman, this is magnificent. It is the first I have seen of your work, although I knew it would be amazing due to the posts you have written. Although this is the first time I've actually seen it, I really like the looks of the Diwani calligraphy. It is beautiful work, and the colors make it even more so. Thank you so much for posting. I was hoping you would post something in this vein. Thanks also for the description of the text and the clever arrangement and layout within the word Allah. Beautiful work.

 

Thank you MusinkMan. Diwani is a lovely flowing script that allows itself to be manipulated in interesting ways. Here's MusinkMan written in Diwani script - no fancy manipulation here though :-)

 

 

 

Salman

 

Oh man, how COOL IS THAT!!!!!! Do you use a broad pen for this, or is it done with traditional reed pens or something similar??? I have such a huge appreciation for any kind of calligraphy. Although I'm unfamiliar with the Diwani characters/alphabets, I really appreciate the beauty and artistry of the characters. Tell me, is it read from left-to-right, or right-to-left? Sal, thanks so much for giving a sample of my own screen name. Really cool of you!

[MusinkMan]

  On 3/1/2013 at 2:57 PM, caliken said:

I no longer use guide lines for slope, but I often draw pencil baselines as an insurance policy, in case my writing strays from the horizontal. The use of guidelines to control letter height and slope angle, is perfectly legitimate IMO and is in no way "cheating".

 

The vast majority of us need some assistance, especially when starting out.

 

We constantly see first efforts where the writing is all over the place. The simple discipline of guidelines usually makes all the difference.

 

There are many early manuscripts in which the guidelines have been left in, as part of the overall design with the writing being placed between the lines. There was a topic on this subject some time ago.

 

If I were you, I would use guidelines for as long as you feel it necessary. As I mentioned in an earlier post, with very complex flourishing for example, I draw it in light pencil and then draw the finished, shaded flourishing over the top. If it's a figure which I've drawn dozens of times then, of course, I draw it freehand from memory.

 

I didn't stop using sloping guidelines because it was considered "cheating" or only for beginners, but because it eventually became unnecessary. Having said that, If I were studying a new unfamiliar style, I wouldn't hesitate to use all and every guideline I could think of!

 

It's how it looks in the end, that matters.

 

 

Ken

 

OK, that's exactly what I was asking, but not sure how to phrase it I reckon? At the "heart" of my question was whether it is more beneficial to develop calligraphic writing without using guidelines (and I'm talking slant lines here). I have several guidesheets with various slants, as well as a light box, and of course my practice becomes quite "consistent in it's slant" when I use one of those under my practice page. However, I began to feel like I would never develop a good eye for slant as long as I kept using that "crutch"; eventually I'd have to walk on my own so to speak. So with that I stopped using slant lines and I quickly realized how inconsistent my slants became (and are). My reasoning was "how will I ever develop an eye for proper slant if I never venture out there). But its SO bad and bothers me so much that I really want to get back to using my little backlit template guide. I was very much pleased when you advised that I do so, I must say.

 

And I've been doing some practice with my new Century oblique holder w/Brause 66EF. In a few days I'll post up some practice doodles I've been working with. I'm really wanting to get decent at calligraphy. It's not a passing thing for me, I've dabbled in it since I was a little kid. Just had no one to point out what was wrong or what needed work. So please don't ever feel that you'll hurt my feelings by pointing out flaws and mistakes. No indeed...I WANT to know what looks bad and how to avoid those mistakes in the future.

 

All righty....long post here...I'll stop and catch my breath. :ltcapd:

Edited March 2, 2013 by MusinkMan

[thang1thang2]

  On 3/1/2013 at 7:49 PM, MusinkMan said:

 

OK, that's exactly what I was asking, but not sure how to phrase it I reckon? At the "heart" of my question was whether it is more beneficial to develop calligraphic writing without using guidelines (and I'm talking slant lines here). I have several guidesheets with various slants, as well as a light box, and of course things get very consistenly slanted when I use one of those under my practice page. I began to feel like I would never develop a good eye for slant as long as I kept using that "crutch"; eventually I'd have to walk on my own so to speak. So with that I stopped using slant lines and I quickly realized how inconsistent my slants became (and are). My reasoning was "how will I ever develop an eye for proper slant if I never venture out there). But its SO bad and bothers me so much that I really want to get back to using my little backlit template guide. I was very much pleased when you advised that I do so, I must say.

 

I believe I can answer this one... With or without guidelines? The question here really is "how do I develop skill without developing muscle memory". See, pure muscle memory in writing is bad because it doesn't allow you to develop something, or have a flair for it. You learn one way, and then it usually degrades over time. On the other hand, learning something means having the muscle TRAINING to be able to construct it from your mind's eye. What you're wanting to prevent is getting too much muscle memory and having it get in the way of skill.

 

As for the answer to that, I say that all sorts of guidelines what so ever are not at all detrimental to your work. In fact, they're beneficial. The reason I say this is because you don't "trace" or do anything of that sort with the guidelines, you simply use them so that your work looks more consistent. The only reason Ken doesn't need slant guides anymore is because his brain can now "write" those guidelines on the paper for him. He still uses the horizontal ones, but give him another 60 years of practice and he might not need those anymore either... :roflmho:

 

I say, go ahead and use any and all sort of guidelines you need. As long as you're not tracing things, you're developing your eye and your talent, and there's nothing that can be wrong about that.

 

Edit: Whoops, didn't realize that he had already answered this question... Oh well.

 

  Quote

And I've been doing some practice with my new Century oblique holder w/Brause 66EF. In a few days I'll post up some practice doodles I've been working with. I'm really wanting to get decent at calligraphy. It's not a passing thing for me, I've dabbled in it since I was a little kid. Just had no one to point out what was wrong or what needed work. So please don't ever feel that you'll hurt my feelings by pointing out flaws and mistakes. No indeed...I WANT to know what looks bad and how to avoid those mistakes in the future.

 

I can't wait to see some of your work! If you want, I'll open up photoshop and use that to "annotate" a sentence or two of your stuff and see how many errors I can point out.

 

And pffh, long posts? I'm the king of long posts, thank you very much

[MusinkMan]

 

I can't wait to see some of your work! If you want, I'll open up photoshop and use that to "annotate" a sentence or two of your stuff and see how many errors I can point out.

 

And pffh, long posts? I'm the king of long posts, thank you very much

 

Excellent Excellent! Don't worry about hurting my feelings now. I mean please don't bash on me, but don't pretend something is good when it is not good. I won't learn anything from people saying, "Yeah, nice work keep it up", when what they should be really saying is...watch the way you are forming your lower case "a"...it needs to start on an upstroke". (That really is a bad habit I'm trying to "unlearn"). Or that the lower case is too fat and squatty...or that it is too long and spindly looking; and "here's how you fix that". Those will be music to my ears.

 

Anyway, thanks a lot bro! I'll try to post up something soon. Tell ya what, I'll put a little narrative about the things I think are wrong with it (it will have warts and all)...and then Ken and you and Mickey and Salman and whoever else wants to offer help can have a go at pointing out what I did wrong and how I should have done it. It won't embarrass me, I'm just trying to learn. And I figure even Ken Fraser himself was right where I am, in the early days of his learning curve.

 

Man, I'm excited about this.

[smk]

  On 3/1/2013 at 7:48 PM, MusinkMan said:

 

Oh man, how COOL IS THAT!!!!!! Do you use a broad pen for this, or is it done with traditional reed pens or something similar??? I have such a huge appreciation for any kind of calligraphy. Although I'm unfamiliar with the Diwani characters/alphabets, I really appreciate the beauty and artistry of the characters. Tell me, is it read from left-to-right, or right-to-left? Sal, thanks so much for giving a sample of my own screen name. Really cool of you!

 

I'm glad you like it :-)

 

This is written with a Sheaffer NN with an 'M' italic nib that is ground to about 30-degrees left oblique. Traditionally Arabic Calligraphy is done with reed pens (cut left oblique) but FP's are better suited for smaller writing.

 

Arabic is written right-to-left. It's a bit tricky to read for people not familiar with the script. The letters change shape depending on whether they fall in the beginning, middle or end of the word, as well as which letter follow or precede them.

 

Salman

[MusinkMan]

I really love the look of it, Salman. It takes me on a journey into Arabian Nights. My favorite eatery is a really cool Lebanese restaurant (Chicken Shawarma to die for, and the tabouleh salad...sheesh it's soooo good). The place is decorated with Lebanese/Middle Eastern decor and design (which I really like). Just a great atmosphere, and every once in a while a belly dancer comes out and does her thing around the tables. They even have a huge Hookah pipe in the back that you can sit around and smoke. There are similar-looking writings on some of the artwork in there. Anyway, I'm saying all this because I have an affection and appreciation for Arabic themes anyway, so it's no surprise that I am fond your calligraphy.

[schin]

Here is a thank you note and envelope I am writing to Atelier Gargoyle. How can I overcome the nervousness when a wet nib is in my hand? It transfers over to my letters and ruin every small letter and my flow.

 

 

[MusinkMan]

  On 3/3/2013 at 7:09 AM, schin said:

Here is a thank you note and envelope I am writing to Atelier Gargoyle. How can I overcome the nervousness when a wet nib is in my hand? It transfers over to my letters and ruin every small letter and my flow.

 

 

 

Well, I was just fixing to turn off my computer and head for bed when this popped up.

 

Schin...I've seen your stuff already, but it never ceases to amaze me. Your Spencerian is absolutely fantastic. You truly are a professional and it shows. A real treat to see anything that you create. When I saw that you had posted on this thread again, I knew it was going to be something phenomenal, and I certainly wasn't disappointed. You are one talented little lady, that's for sure! FANTASTIC, and thanks so much for posting this up. (I take it you like the seal from Altelier Gargoyle Paraphenalia. :-)

 

Thanks again...beautiful example and a real treat for everyone.

[schin]

Thank you musicinkman, I am still struggling to breathe life and uniformity into my letters, I still need a lot of study and practice, but it is nice to share and develop with all of you in this forum. It's very inspiring to see all your work too Let's keep this up.

 

Yes! I love my wax seals, and thought it's a good opportunity to write another letter (and to practice!). Perhaps one day I will save up for one of their $300 (!!) seals.. maybe by then I will improve more.

[ZachWasniak]

  On 3/3/2013 at 7:36 AM, schin said:

Thank you musicinkman, I am still struggling to breathe life and uniformity into my letters, I still need a lot of study and practice, but it is nice to share and develop with all of you in this forum. It's very inspiring to see all your work too Let's keep this up.

 

Yes! I love my wax seals, and thought it's a good opportunity to write another letter (and to practice!). Perhaps one day I will save up for one of their $300 (!!) seals.. maybe by then I will improve more.

I don't think I could bring myself to spend $300 on a seal.... I love the wax and the seals, but for $300... I don't think so.

Nevertheless, great work!

[ZachWasniak]

I'm certainly no artist... But this is what happens when boredom takes over.

http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s664/ZachWasniak/IMAG0340_zpsb8879cd0.jpg

[ZachWasniak]

Well, I made this on the front cover of my best friend's birthday.. Instead of a card, I wrote a letter. Hope she likes it.

http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s664/ZachWasniak/IMAG0343_zps1b6e0bcb.jpg

[ZachWasniak]

And closed it up with this!

http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s664/ZachWasniak/IMAG0344_zps2a193007.jpg

[caliken]

From time to time, the erroneous statement that "Copperplate is drawn and not written" continues to surface.

 

Copperplate is now the name commonly given to the style of handwriting originally called "English Roundhand".

 

It was engraved onto copper plates for reproduction, hence the common name "Copperplate". This engraved lettering, epitomised in George Bickham's "The Universal Penman", has been emulated in two forms. Althougn the same pen is used for both, the style known as Engraver's or Engrosser's Script is drawn and not written, with many pen lifts and ocassional rotating of the paper. This style can be seen, and is fully explained on the IAMPETH site.

The second form is handwritten as any other handwriting, from left to right in a continuous flow with very few pen lifts and with no paper or pen manipulation. This is an enlarged example of such "Copperplate" handwriting.

 

Ken

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/CopperplateHandwritingamended500.jpg

Edited March 3, 2013 by caliken

[Stompie]

  On 3/3/2013 at 7:09 AM, schin said:

 

 

 

Just plain WOW!!!!!!! this is really beautiful to look at!

 

I do see that like me, you also struggle with your flourishes - is it the roughness of the paper or the nervousness of the hand :-)

I am talking more of the thin sweeps to the left and then upwards.

 

But really, what well executed writing!

[MusinkMan]

  On 3/3/2013 at 12:37 PM, caliken said:

From time to time, the erroneous statement that "Copperplate is drawn and not written" continues to surface.

 

Copperplate is now the name commonly given to the style of handwriting originally called "English Roundhand".

 

It was engraved onto copper plates for reproduction, hence the common name "Copperplate". This engraved lettering, epitomised in George Bickham's "The Universal Penman", has been emulated in two forms. Althougn the same pen is used for both, the style known as Engraver's or Engrosser's Script is drawn and not written, with many pen lifts and ocassional rotating of the paper. This style can be seen, and is fully explained on the IAMPETH site.

The second form is handwritten as any other handwriting, from left to right in a continuous flow with very few pen lifts and with no paper or pen manipulation. This is an enlarged example of such "Copperplate" handwriting.

 

Ken

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/CopperplateHandwritingamended500.jpg

 

My goodness, Ken. How many years upon years of hard work and practice did it take you to get THAT good? I don't mean to get personal here, but when did you start with calligraphy, and what was it that attracted you to it in the first place? I'm just curious as to how and why you began your art. Those flourishes that you do; they boggle my mind. I wish I could get the technique down of getting those nice sharp squared-off tops and bottoms of the thick strokes. Such as on the ascender of a lowercase "d". Mine ascender usually turns out to be a disgusting little malformed thing, instead of a nice straight line with a squared off top. And my attempts at re-touching it only seems to make things worse. LOL! Anyway...enough of that...your work is truly brilliant, Ken. Heads and shoulders above anyone on this site, and very likely above anyone who currently lives on this planet. Thank you for posting your stunning works on my little thread. Truly appreciated, and as always...we anticipate seeing more if you would grace us with further examples of your world-class talent. You have no idea what a rare treat this is for all of us, sir!

[MusinkMan]

  On 3/3/2013 at 7:36 AM, schin said:

Thank you musicinkman, I am still struggling to breathe life and uniformity into my letters, I still need a lot of study and practice, but it is nice to share and develop with all of you in this forum. It's very inspiring to see all your work too Let's keep this up.

 

Yes! I love my wax seals, and thought it's a good opportunity to write another letter (and to practice!). Perhaps one day I will save up for one of their $300 (!!) seals.. maybe by then I will improve more.

 

Whaaatttt??? You're struggling to what? Schin, your writing is full of life and character. You most definitely are your own worst critic. I'm not kidding or exaggerating when I tell you I was absolutely astounded at this Spencerian letter. And I'm still astounded, even after close examination. The addressed envelope was incredible. Really really really REALLY good by any standard. Post up more if you get a chance and would share your freaky-good abilities with us? Pwwwweeeaaassse?