Invitation To Show Off Your Stuff...

[caliken]

.....in studying and reading the advice of the old long-gone master penmen of the day, it seems that they kept their right arm in one place on the desk, and slid the paper over as they went across the page. This kept their arm and their slant very stable and consistent, because there wasn't a "new" arm placement to contend with every time they moved it around. It seems like their arm and their hand "stayed put". That was a bit of a revelation to me.

That's absolutely correct. If you move your hand across the paper as you write, you're viewing the writing at a gradually changing angle, which makes consistency extremely difficult. If you can keep your hand where it is, and move the paper as required, you're viewing the lettering from precisely the same point regardless of where it is on the page. As you intimated, this is an age-old basic technique.

 

Ken

Edited September 10, 2013 by caliken

[Mickey]

I am now convinced that a good business hand is almost a pre-cursor to Spencerian Ornamental Penmanship. Am I correct on that?

Certainly, if you can't do decent business hand, it's highly unlikely (read: impossible) that you will do decent OP. The two hardest thing about doing OP is not shading with an ultra-flexible nib and getting the letter shapes absolutely correct (no dramatic shades to hide behind).

 

I have a suggestion for conquering the Principal: practice writing an absolutely shade free business hand with it. You may not succeed, but the exercise is worthwhile. Most days begin for me doing minimally shaded Spencerian with an Esterbrook 128 or 358. (I'll shade majuscules, maybe d, p, and t, but that's it.) If I'm feeling especially adventurous and steady-handed, I'll try writing the same exercises with a Hunt 99 or Esterbrook 356, which is often humbling.

[chris.uk]

I didn't know where else to put this so moderators please feel free to move it to wherever you see fit. It's embarrassing to post it here with all these wonderful examples of amazing work but as i said i didn't know where to put it and i just wanted to maybe get an opinion or perhaps some advice on how to improve.

 

[caliken]

Chris,

 

You're posting in exactly the right place....welcome!

 

 

Your writing is perfectly legible and I was able to read right through your letter with no hesitation. If you want to improve it's appearance, you'll get plenty of help and advice. Certainly, you have to sort out your penhold. Pain in the hand is unneccesary and unacceptable! Look on this sub-forum for the Tripod grip and give it a go. In fact, just put the word 'tripod' in the seach box, and you'll probably find the information. With this hold you should be able to write for long stretches of time with no discomfort. Give it a try.

Also, I suggest forcing yourself to really slow down while practicing and give your hand a chance to form the letters. I firmly believe that this is a Craft rather than an Art and everyone can do it if they have the necessary committment.

 

Ken

Edited September 11, 2013 by caliken

[MusinkMan]

Chris, good goin' there! Please don't feel embarrassed to post here...Lord knows I've posted some doozies! hahaha. This is a learning site, and no one will ridicule you here. We all have an appreciation for writing and a healthy respect for anyone and everyone who aspires to improve their penmanship. Kudos to you, and keep 'em coming!

 

Mr. Caliken is the best of the best, so listen to what he says.

 

Additionally I would offer that if you write on lined paper, or with some kind of lined backer sheet, your writing will improve dramatically. If you use a "top and bottom line" to confine your writing on the north and south boundaries, so much the better.

 

If you want to really show a massive improvement quickly, draw some parallel slanted lines (all to be erased afterwards) at somewhere between 52 and 45 degrees...use those to keep your slant consistent.

 

And get ready to smile at the result! :-)

Edited September 12, 2013 by MusinkMan

[thang1thang2]

I learned something new that I'm anxious to try...in studying and reading the advice of the old long-gone master penmen of the day, it seems that they kept their right arm in one place on the desk, and slid the paper over as they went across the page. This kept their arm and their slant very stable and consistent, because there wasn't a "new" arm placement to contend with every time they moved it around. It seems like their arm and their hand "stayed put".

 

...

 

 

Spencerian script may be more of a "cursive script", but I'm learning that there is more to it than that. Your business hand is so good and so pure... I am now convinced that a good business hand is almost a pre-cursor to Spencerian Ornamental Penmanship. Am I correct on that?

I have some interesting links for you that you may definitely enjoy. They should clear up (greatly) some points for you.

 

http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/ornamental_penmanship/del_tysdal_lessons/DelOPInst01.pdf

 

This first pdf is part 1 of a series of 6 by Del Tysdal (who recently passed away, not even two days ago. He will be sorely missed, but his legacy lives on). The rest of the series, 2-6, can be found http://www.iampeth.com/lessons_ornamental.php here.

 

Pay special attention to his talk of 'pen lifts' and of paper movement. Those 6 pdfs have, just by reading them, completely transformed my spencerian writing into several magnitudes higher of neatness and professionalism simply by making it much easier to get the forms correct.

 

The tl;dr is that pen lifts happened rather often, sometimes as much as 2-3 times per letter. For example you might (for the word 'cat') draw the lead in stroke for the c, lift, small shade and complete the slightly shaded 'c' letter. Draw the connecting letter to the a. Pen lift, write the a. Pen lift, draw the last stroke for the a to connect it to the t, but only write the t as the first part up to an 'i' level. Pen lift. Start from the top and shade and snap for the 't', retouch, pen lift and draw the ending exit line.

 

When I realized that you have just as many, if not more, pen lifts in ornamental penmanship as you do in copperplate, and that both take about the same time to write perfectly, it really did a number to my head. Business writing = fast. Spencerian = moderate. Ornamental penmanship = SLOOOOOOOOOOOW. Perfection has a price

 

---

 

The second thing I was interested in showing you has great relevance to your ending comment about business script being a precursor. http://www.iampeth.com/del_tysdal_memories.php

 

Of note, and quoted in full here:

 

 

----- Original Message -----

From: Del

To: Ornamental_Penmanship@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, August 01, 2011 8:49 AM

Subject: Time spent to learn OP

 

When I was taught penmanship, the first 9 months was spent on business penmanship. Daily drills in classes totally 1 3/4 hours a day for 9 months with nightly homework of about 1/2 hour. Then the teacher said I could learn OP and that has been another 40 years.

 

Another comment that's interesting. Of the Ornamental Penmanship/Business Penmanship categories, several of the professional penman (or at least Warner C Brownfield) referred to them by different names, according to the category of execution. Pro-pen, for example, would've been the highest level of ornamental penmanship you did. Slow, halting and painstakingly perfectionistic in its execution. Made to look elegant, like the kiss of an angel, as if it was written dashy with inhuman skill.

 

Lower levels of the ornamental penmanship required no less skill, they were simply executed faster. Pro-pen had several pen lifts and several halting movements to make everything perfect. A lower level, for example, might have no pen lifts (e.g. true 'writing' although still slow and careful), and lines might not be retouched everywhere. The T and P snaps wouldn't have been retouched either. On still another lower level of penmanship, they might not have even bothered with slant guidelines, and it would've been written faster. This lowest level was reserved for correspondence where none else but the receiver would see the writing and the beauty didn't matter as much as the message.

[MusinkMan]

Thang One...yep, that makes some great reading. I read all of those Del Tysdal things a few days ago. I have a client who studied under Del, and he is giving me some really good critiques and "cyber/phone lessons" via a browser-linking program...also he has been pointing me to many of the Iampeth exemplars and information that I really need. Iampeth is sooooo big, it really helps when someone points me straight to the place that addresses my immediate need. Everytime I try to navigate it "on my own", I find things that take me way off on a tangent because everything on there is so interesting to me.

 

Anyway, in my quest to tame that blasted Leonardt Principal, I tried some mono-line business hand-ish stuff. I am finding that I can do it...not all that well, but I can do it. Which means I can practice it. Which means that I will eventually conquer it. Meantime, I am getting a handle on the soft, sensitive Principal and it is becoming sort of an obsession to write with it! Man, can that mooger swell or what?!?!? Compared to the Esterbrook 358, this thing is a monster when you give it the gas. And when it makes those big thick swells, it also dumps a considerable river of ink (which is why I use nothing but Clairefontaine with it). I am using Higgins ink, and also some excelent cooked Walnut ink that Fiberdrunk gave me. My new "teacher" told me that the Higgins is "ok", but "just ok". He strongly urges me to mix and use guache. I notice that Ken Fraser uses guache often, so I'm sure there is a reason for that. To put a shameless plug in for Ken (Caliken), I still believe that he is probably the best calligrapher on this good earth.

 

OK...here is some "taming of the beast" that I did this evening. (Not really taming the beast....in actuality learning how to use the beast without having it humiliate me too badly.

 

[chris.uk]

Chris,

 

You're posting in exactly the right place....welcome!

 

 

Your writing is perfectly legible and I was able to read right through your letter with no hesitation. If you want to improve it's appearance, you'll get plenty of help and advice. Certainly, you have to sort out your penhold. Pain in the hand is unneccesary and unacceptable! Look on this sub-forum for the Tripod grip and give it a go. In fact, just put the word 'tripod' in the seach box, and you'll probably find the information. With this hold you should be able to write for long stretches of time with no discomfort. Give it a try.

Also, I suggest forcing yourself to really slow down while practicing and give your hand a chance to form the letters. I firmly believe that this is a Craft rather than an Art and everyone can do it if they have the necessary committment.

 

Ken

 

 

Chris, good goin' there! Please don't feel embarrassed to post here...Lord knows I've posted some doozies! hahaha. This is a learning site, and no one will ridicule you here. We all have an appreciation for writing and a healthy respect for anyone and everyone who aspires to improve their penmanship. Kudos to you, and keep 'em coming!

 

Mr. Caliken is the best of the best, so listen to what he says.

 

Additionally I would offer that if you write on lined paper, or with some kind of lined backer sheet, your writing will improve dramatically. If you use a "top and bottom line" to confine your writing on the north and south boundaries, so much the better.

 

If you want to really show a massive improvement quickly, draw some parallel slanted lines (all to be erased afterwards) at somewhere between 52 and 45 degrees...use those to keep your slant consistent.

 

And get ready to smile at the result! :-)

 

Thanks guys i'll certainly keep practising, Ken i've looked at a lot of your work so i'll gladly accept any advice from someone with your knowledge and musinkman that last piece from you is simply stunning well done for taming the leonardt.

[Mickey]

Thang One...yep, that makes some great reading. I read all of those Del Tysdal things a few days ago. I have a client who studied under Del, and he is giving me some really good critiques and "cyber/phone lessons" via a browser-linking program...also he has been pointing me to many of the Iampeth exemplars and information that I really need. Iampeth is sooooo big, it really helps when someone points me straight to the place that addresses my immediate need. Everytime I try to navigate it "on my own", I find things that take me way off on a tangent because everything on there is so interesting to me.

 

Anyway, in my quest to tame that blasted Leonardt Principal, I tried some mono-line business hand-ish stuff. I am finding that I can do it...not all that well, but I can do it. Which means I can practice it. Which means that I will eventually conquer it. Meantime, I am getting a handle on the soft, sensitive Principal and it is becoming sort of an obsession to write with it! Man, can that mooger swell or what?!?!? Compared to the Esterbrook 358, this thing is a monster when you give it the gas. And when it makes those big thick swells, it also dumps a considerable river of ink (which is why I use nothing but Clairefontaine with it). I am using Higgins ink, and also some excelent cooked Walnut ink that Fiberdrunk gave me. My new "teacher" told me that the Higgins is "ok", but "just ok". He strongly urges me to mix and use guache. I notice that Ken Fraser uses guache often, so I'm sure there is a reason for that. To put a shameless plug in for Ken (Caliken), I still believe that he is probably the best calligrapher on this good earth.

 

OK...here is some "taming of the beast" that I did this evening. (Not really taming the beast....in actuality learning how to use the beast without having it humiliate me too badly.

 

A couple of things I noticed:

 

The lines look a little heavy for the Principal, which we both know is a pretty sharp point. This might be a hand weight issue, but it could very well be the ink. Get thee some IG, Lad. It will give you better hairlines, plus its lack of lubricity encourages an even lighter touch. It's a win win.

 

You really need to start your shades later and let off earlier. The shade on the stems shouldn't really start until just about the x-line. It's hard not to anticipate the shade, so I aim to start them after the x-line and end up starting them just before. Similarly, you need to get off the gas a little sooner on the d and t wedge. The bottoms are sometimes heavy and ink gets carried over into upstroke. (I fight the same battle, as I suspect many of us do.)

 

On the good side, there are a few exceptionally well shaped letters (e.g., the a in 'and voila') and you don't anticipate the bottom turn on the letter 'l', but keep on straight almost to the writing line. I also admire the starting flourish on the majuscule W in 'Well.' This may seem like damning with faint praise, but it isn't. I'm pleased to find a 2 or 3 really good letters on an entire page of my own writing.

[thang1thang2]

A couple of things I noticed:

 

The lines look a little heavy for the Principal, which we both know is a pretty sharp point. This might be a hand weight issue, but it could very well be the ink. Get thee some IG, Lad. It will give you better hairlines, plus its lack of lubricity encourages an even lighter touch. It's a win win.

 

You really need to start your shades later and let off earlier. The shade on the stems shouldn't really start until just about the x-line. It's hard not to anticipate the shade, so I aim to start them after the x-line and end up starting them just before. Similarly, you need to get off the gas a little sooner on the d and t wedge. The bottoms are sometimes heavy and ink gets carried over into upstroke. (I fight the same battle, as I suspect many of us do.)

 

"Lubricity" according to the google dictionary plugin means "prurience: feeling morbid sexual desire or a propensity to lewdness". I had a good chuckle with that one.

 

Anyway, on topic now! I have a question. I'm using 32lb inkjet printer paper and, while it works perfectly with my fountain pens, and it works pretty good with sumi ink, it doesn't like my walnut ink crystals and it HATES my higgens eternal. Which makes me sad, because I like higgens.

 

I also have some gouache, but I have no idea what consistency to mix it to. It was fun to play with, however, and it didn't bleed at all on the paper. I'd almost rather use it since you can buy gouache anywhere compared to iron gall inks. (Which is your favorite iron gall ink, Mickey?)

 

With my 't' and 'd' wedges, I found it very helpful to watch videos and see how people did it.

 

Don Tate writing his 't'. Notice how early he lets off on the pen. Almost as soon as it starts moving about 90% of the pressure is off his hand.

 

Michael Sull writing his 't'. In this one, he writes his t very differently. He doesn't write with a snap and flourish that Don does. I assume this comes from very specific practice and training for speed. He presses down for the t, and slowly and leisurely draws down while rapidly removing the pressure from his nib to create the wedge. He then retouches slightly.

 

And John DeCollibus writing his 't'. He writes slowly, and leisurely as well. Notice those fine, sexy lines. Iron gall, baby.

 

 

[Mickey]

Anyway, on topic now! I have a question. I'm using 32lb inkjet printer paper and, while it works perfectly with my fountain pens, and it works pretty good with sumi ink, it doesn't like my walnut ink crystals and it HATES my higgens eternal. Which makes me sad, because I like higgens.

 

I also have some gouache, but I have no idea what consistency to mix it to. It was fun to play with, however, and it didn't bleed at all on the paper. I'd almost rather use it since you can buy gouache anywhere compared to iron gall inks. (Which is your favorite iron gall ink, Mickey?)

 

With my 't' and 'd' wedges, I found it very helpful to watch videos and see how people did it.

 

 

 

I can help you with gauche, but not gouache. I would imagine you should dilute until you get the behavior you want.

 

I've used McCaffery's and Old World Iron Gall inks and have even made my own. The two commercial products are both fine. I can't see that there's much difference in terms of my need, which is not critical. I'm using McCaffery's primarily because it's easier to pour a little out of the handy 4oz bottle than out of a 2oz jar. I understand Blot's is available again on this side of the pond. Maybe you can give it a shot and tell the rest of us.

 

Try playing with the dilution of the walnut ink. Adding more crystals is kind of like adding gum Arabic; it tightens up the line. If you don't have any more crystals, leave the pot open for a few days.

 

My approach to d and t is more in the Don Tate mode, (probably because my writing tempo is more like his; I can't move smoothly at the glacial pace of Michael Sull). I'm off the gas pedal almost as soon as the tines spread and I start moving the pen.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Mickey

[MusinkMan]

I have some gouache ordered. My new writing master instructor is teaching me things I never knew. That guy...wow. He studied under Del Tysdal. Del was Brownfield's last student. Brownfield was Madarasz's last student. Am I in high cotton or what!!!!! Woooo Hooooo! Better watch out for me. hahahaha

[BenBaritone]

I am in awe of the beautiful calligraphy and penmanship in this thread. Here is my humble contribution; I tried my hand at italic, roundhand, foundational, and Hebrew. Materials used: two Noodler's Konrads, one with the standard flex nib and one with the Goulet Pens 1.1mm stub italic nib. I used Parker Quink Blue-Black on a Maruman 6mm ruled report pad (the ruling didn't show up in the scan).

 

[MusinkMan]

Nice, Ben!!!! Very cool stuff. Loved the Hebrew calligraphy at the end (although I can't read it, it's beautiful). all of it is beautiful, man!

[MusinkMan]

A couple of things I noticed:

 

The lines look a little heavy for the Principal, which we both know is a pretty sharp point. This might be a hand weight issue, but it could very well be the ink. Get thee some IG, Lad. It will give you better hairlines, plus its lack of lubricity encourages an even lighter touch. It's a win win.

 

You really need to start your shades later and let off earlier. The shade on the stems shouldn't really start until just about the x-line. It's hard not to anticipate the shade, so I aim to start them after the x-line and end up starting them just before. Similarly, you need to get off the gas a little sooner on the d and t wedge. The bottoms are sometimes heavy and ink gets carried over into upstroke. (I fight the same battle, as I suspect many of us do.)

 

On the good side, there are a few exceptionally well shaped letters (e.g., the a in 'and voila') and you don't anticipate the bottom turn on the letter 'l', but keep on straight almost to the writing line. I also admire the starting flourish on the majuscule W in 'Well.' This may seem like damning with faint praise, but it isn't. I'm pleased to find a 2 or 3 really good letters on an entire page of my own writing.

 

Yeah, there are tons of horrid things in here. But I hope to get them sorted out in short order now that I have a really talented instructor to critique and correct me. My main goal now is to smooth out those hairlines, and to get them spider-web thin. I'm hoping the gouache will help with the thin lines. I've been using Higgins...my McCafferey's had turned to thick black pudding, so I threw it in the trash. LOL! The ink is very important I know. Higgins is great because it's opaque, it's fast, it's ready-mixed, and it doesn't smear when the guidelines are erased. But I don't think it's the best for achieving the kind of thins I'm hoping to learn. All of the caps in that post are too small too...they should be considerably bigger in relationship to the minuscule text. It's that blasted nib that I'm trying to get a handle on. I'll get it though...I'm on "a mission" now! hahaha

[thang1thang2]

You threw the McCaffrey's in the trash?

 

It's Iron Gall ink. You can let the entire thing evaporate and then just pour water back in it and it will be good as new. In fact, many writing masters suggested putting a bit of water in it every once in awhile to make sure the consistency stayed correct.

 

I'll forgive you, no worries.

[MusinkMan]

I know, thang...I put some distilled water in it to reconstitute it...it still clogged up my pen and in frustration I tossed it. I know that it is used by all of the big guns out there, but honestly I never liked the stuff. I imagine I'm showing my ignorance, but I don't care. hahaha I'm trying to find what works for me...I think that maybe I've spent too much time trying to "force" things that don't work so well for me. Higgins Eternal has been a much more "friendly" and enjoyable ink to me. I thought it was doing fine until I saw some "real" hairlines in black ink. From some vintage samples of Lupfer's collection that I purchased on ebay. Wow...now THOSE guys weren't just messin' around. So next on my list is gouache. I've never used it before, but I've heard great things about it. And my new "teacher" sent me some incredible work that he's done with it. He told me that until I get "the three components" comfortable for myself, I will be frustrated...the "three components" being Paper, Ink, and Nib. Clairefontaine paper is my favorite...the Leonardt Principal (or probably any other Principality type nib) is something that he said I will need to learn, because they will yield those hairlines and also have extreme flexing capabilities...that's why you see me fighting that tiger lately. And lastly the ink...I have high hopes for the gouache. I ordered some Windsor and Newton black gouache which should arrive in a couple of days. I'm soooo anxious to try it out. I've read that the old masters (Madarasz and I think Courtney, & others) used ink sticks, and ground their inks themselves. That seems to be a pain in the keester...and I don't think they would have gone to all that trouble for nothing. My point being...they must not have been too keen on the pre-bottled stuff either. ? What are your thoughts?

[hzsimms]

You threw the McCaffrey's in the trash?

 

It's Iron Gall ink. You can let the entire thing evaporate and then just pour water back in it and it will be good as new. In fact, many writing masters suggested putting a bit of water in it every once in awhile to make sure the consistency stayed correct.

 

I'll forgive you, no worries.

Last time I opened my McAffrey's that green hot dog eating ghost from Ghostbusters was in there. It's like a 1 oz. Petri dish.

[Mickey]

I know, thang...I put some distilled water in it to reconstitute it...it still clogged up my pen and in frustration I tossed it. I know that it is used by all of the big guns out there, but honestly I never liked the stuff.

 

I don't think it reconstitutes all that well once it starts going off. The best way I've found for using IG inks is to decant the ink off the sediment into a smaller well (a dinky dip or McCaffery's brass well), refilling from the original container or diluting as necessary. When the ink in the smaller vessel becomes sludgy, I toss it and start over. I waste very little and I almost never stir my ink. I'm a big fan of Brownian motion.

[smk]

I have some gouache ordered. My new writing master instructor is teaching me things I never knew. That guy...wow. He studied under Del Tysdal. Del was Brownfield's last student. Brownfield was Madarasz's last student. Am I in high cotton or what!!!!! Woooo Hooooo! Better watch out for me. hahahaha

 

You must be ready Brian - you teacher has appeared. Make the most of this opportunity. I am excited for you and waiting impatiently to see the results.

 

As for the Iron Gall ink, the sludge in the ink is oxidized Iron. Once oxidized, the Iron cannot be reconstituted by mixing, stirring, shaking or adding water. This is why it is not recommended to stir or shake Iron Gall ink. Shaking/mixing causes the oxidized Iron particles to become suspended in the ink and you'll get inconsistent flow and black specks in your writing.

 

Gouache is great, you just add water until it is about the consistency of milk and use it like any other ink. You can add more water if some evaporates and it doesn't flow well. It can be revived by adding water even it is completely dried up. You get good solid black (or whatever color you are using) lines unlike dye based inks. It is a bit more work than using bottled ink though. You'll need to clean your nib every so often though as it dries quickly and builds up on the nib.

 

I have not used McCaffery's ink but have made Iron Gall ink from Pomegranate peels (using fiberdrunk's recipe). If the results of my amateur experiments is any indication, Iron Gall inks are superior to other inks for use in pointed pens. What I didn't like was the speed at which it corroded my nibs (maybe mine was too acidic).

 

These days I am using Noodler's Black for pointed pen practice. It works great in pointed pens, not so good with broad edged nibs as the color becomes washed out.

 

Salman