Invitation To Show Off Your Stuff...

[MusinkMan]

To 'l' and back mate, quite an adventure eh!

 

Is that latest picture of yours 31 March, not more Copper rather than Spency?

I thought Spencerian was the thin lines with the occassional light shading except on capitals.

 

I know, Stompie...I can't develop the touch to thin down those strokes. It's killing me, bro! I don't see how you do it. Back to the practice board for me.

[MusinkMan]

Well, it's about 600 lowercase L's later, and I still am not very successful at writing it in monoline.

Great advice from Mickey. Nothing much to add except for one mindset which helps me. When you're doing your downstroke hairline l exercise, try imagining that you're using a fine sable brush to paint the finest lines: in other words, no pressure. Let the weight of the nib do the work.

 

Ken

 

I will try that Ken. Thanks so much. It boggles my mind when I realize the slightest pressure (not intentional pressure)will make a very noticeable difference in thickness. I will try that...just letting the weight of the pen rest on the paper and move it down. I tried that somewhere in the 600 L's that I wrote, but I seem to have lost control of the nib or so it seemed. It will take more practice so that this becomes second-nature to me.

 

THE SUS-SPENCE IS KILLING ME. LOL! (Corny little pun there).

 

Thank all you guys for helping me out. This is difficult to figure out on my own, so this kind of advice is worth it's weight in gold to me.

[MusinkMan]

Well, it's about 600 lowercase L's later, and I still am not very successful at writing it in monoline.

Great advice from Mickey. Nothing much to add except for one mindset which helps me. When you're doing your downstroke hairline l exercise, try imagining that you're using a fine sable brush to paint the finest lines: in other words, no pressure. Let the weight of the nib do the work.

 

Ken

 

Similarly, think about moving the last two fingers (where they contact the page), rather than the nib. In an earlier thread, Ken said something about the final two fingers tracing the letters in parallel with the nib (I paraphrase). I think it's a great image. It keeps the fingers quiet. Remember, light pressure on the forearm*, less pressure on the last finger (or 2 fingers), and almost no pressure on the nib.

 

Don't be disheartened. Hairline down strokes may be the biggest technical barrier to writing good Spencerian and why it is probably easier to fake Copperplate than Spencerian. (The two hands are equally difficult to do properly.) Shades are relatively rare in Spencerian, but more dramatic. It's kind of like carrying a hair-trigger revolver with your finger on the trigger. You need to learn not to twitch.

 

* If you need to steady your body, lean on your non-writing arm. Keep the pressure on the writing arm low.

 

So much great advice. Mickey, I believe that L exercise will help by leaps and bounds. It definitely brought a lot of things to light for me. I can see why the Nikko nibs are popular for beginning Spence students. They are much more forgiving on the thin strokes. It's tempting to practice with that, but my thoughts are, I need to develop this touch with a soft flexible nib. That way I will have the technique down, instead of using a stiff nib that doesn't really train me properly. Is that a fair assessment, or should I start with stiff nibs and then "move up" into softer nibs?

 

I'll work on this some more today, and will post up my results. Hopefully there will be a pronounced difference in the L's I wrote last night, and the L's I write today. This has turned out to be a daunting task!

 

Thanks Mickey! Very nice of you guys to assess my attempts and help me get me feet on the proper path!

[Stompie]

I find that letting the pen just rest on the page is more than enough weight. I actually have to hold it off the page to get thin lines.

 

I think you are trying to get the little bubble if ink on the end of the nib to touch and not the actual metal of the nib itself.

[akustyk]

Okay, I'll play. Just started learning the flex pen a few weeks ago:

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag32/akustyk/CAM00488-1_zpsf4dcc104.jpg

[MusinkMan]

I find that letting the pen just rest on the page is more than enough weight. I actually have to hold it off the page to get thin lines.

 

I think you are trying to get the little bubble if ink on the end of the nib to touch and not the actual metal of the nib itself.

 

Yes, it's not the easiest thing in the world for me. I'm thinking that I probably need a couple shots of Stompie's Homebrew to steady my hand a little.

 

Stomp, what nib are you using in your dip pen if you don't mind me asking?

[MusinkMan]

Okay, I'll play. Just started learning the flex pen a few weeks ago:

http://i1297.photobucket.com/albums/ag32/akustyk/CAM00488-1_zpsf4dcc104.jpg

 

Hey, cool! Nice man. What ink is that? I like it a lot.

[akustyk]

Okay, I'll play. Just started learning the flex pen a few weeks ago:

 

 

Hey, cool! Nice man. What ink is that? I like it a lot.

Thanks so much. I am only just starting out, playing with a flex pen. The ink is Diamine Ancient Copper. I just ordered my first dip nib and an oblique holder to learn proper Copperplate. I just need to get a good book to practice with. Any recommendations?

[MusinkMan]

Ha! I won't be much help to you. I'm trying to get the Spencerian thing down, so I feel your pain. There are lots of great books on Copperplate. Caliken's stuff is great...look on the classifieds here on this page and you will see that he has some excellent material. My daughter gave me a book called "Mastering Copperplate Calligraphy" by Eleanor Winters. I found it to be quite helpful for my meager attempts. And of course the IAMPETH website.

 

These guys on here are the best! They will look at your examples and tell you what to work on if you ask them. It's like getting helpful critique by the best in the world.

 

You'll get it...and so will I! Nice Calligraphy or Bust...that's my motto. :roflmho:

[MusinkMan]

You'd think I'd be an expert on the letter "L" by now. But I feel more unsure and shaky than ever. The touch has to be so light that I find my penpoint skipping and shaking. Almost feels like I have to keep the point "hovering" over the page. No feedback from the nib at all. With the Nikko, it's easier because I don't have to be so light-handed. But the Leonardt Principal...that thing has made me say some bad words. LOL. All of the below is from the Principal nib. It's not good either...I guess I'm "paying my dues" at this point.

 

[Stompie]

 

 

Stomp, what nib are you using in your dip pen if you don't mind me asking?

 

Any specific picture/note that I wrote in mind?

 

Because I have about 7 dippers loaded all the time and depending on my mood, what I am planning to write and on what paper I am planning on writing on, I use a different dipper.

So, I got: Principle, Hunt 101, Hunt 22, Gillotts 107, Nikko G, Zebra G, Brause, Hunt 99, a Copperplate nib (can't recall the brand) and one or 2 others that I just can't remember - and unfortunately they all downstairs and I am upstairs and the place is alarmed already.

 

and then of course sometimes I use my Ackerman pumpers - but they are loaded with Zebra G at the moment.

 

Oh, and depepnding on the ink, so if it is Walnut ink then I only use a very fine nib because that Walnut ink writes beautifully fine.

 

So, if you are thinking of a specific note I made on here, I can't tell you unless you id the note.

 

and after all that flapping of the gums, if you still think I might mind telling you, well.................. :ltcapd:

[Stompie]

:roflmho: wanna buy a vowel!!!!

 

But serious, are you using a guideline sheet for all this?

 

I pulled on off some website that someone mentioned - yeah I know, try be more specific - and I am printing it out tomorrow when I get into town. I have tried to set it up to give me sort of squares as well so that I can size the horizontal diameters of my letters, you know, so all my tails on my letter l (if there are any left 'cause it looks like you used them all!!!) will be equidistant.

 

If it works I will email it to you. Hey, if it doesnt work I'll email it any way just to get rid of it :roflmho:

[caliken]

Copperplate writing for a hotel restaurant.

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/SheratonDickensianTeaHouse700.jpg

Edited April 1, 2013 by caliken

[Mickey]

You'd think I'd be an expert on the letter "L" by now. But I feel more unsure and shaky than ever. The touch has to be so light that I find my penpoint skipping and shaking. Almost feels like I have to keep the point "hovering" over the page. No feedback from the nib at all. With the Nikko, it's easier because I don't have to be so light-handed. But the Leonardt Principal...that thing has made me say some bad words. LOL. All of the below is from the Principal nib. It's not good either...I guess I'm "paying my dues" at this point.

 

 

Feel free to use stiffer nibs until you feel comfortable. Baby steps. I do most of my practice with an Esterbrook 128 which is fairly stiff. (I get out a Hunt 99 when I start feeling smug.) Also, guide lines or ruled paper help a lot. I use Seyes (also called French ruled) paper. The lines help not only to get the proportions correct but will even help you see the proper slant without an under sheet. The letter l (el), for example, goes up and out 3 spaces then returns to cross itself at first line above the base. (The same for the b, h, and k, similarly for the g, j, and y.) If the loop looks attractive, not too fat / not too thin, the angles are probably about right.

[MusinkMan]

Copperplate writing for a hotel restaurant.

 

Ken

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/SheratonDickensianTeaHouse700.jpg

 

 

Oh Ho! Now that's what I'm talking about. Look At That!

 

Thanks for posting it, Ken. And keep them coming, sir. So inspirational, and gives us all something to "shoot at". It's too bad we have that big pond of water between us, because I'm sure I'd find a way to drive up and meet you face to face. My friend and my idol.

[MusinkMan]

You'd think I'd be an expert on the letter "L" by now. But I feel more unsure and shaky than ever. The touch has to be so light that I find my penpoint skipping and shaking. Almost feels like I have to keep the point "hovering" over the page. No feedback from the nib at all. With the Nikko, it's easier because I don't have to be so light-handed. But the Leonardt Principal...that thing has made me say some bad words. LOL. All of the below is from the Principal nib. It's not good either...I guess I'm "paying my dues" at this point.

 

 

Feel free to use stiffer nibs until you feel comfortable. Baby steps. I do most of my practice with an Esterbrook 128 which is fairly stiff. (I get out a Hunt 99 when I start feeling smug.) Also, guide lines or ruled paper help a lot. I use Seyes (also called French ruled) paper. The lines help not only to get the proportions correct but will even help you see the proper slant without an under sheet. The letter l (el), for example, goes up and out 3 spaces then returns to cross itself at first line above the base. (The same for the b, h, and k, similarly for the g, j, and y.) If the loop looks attractive, not too fat / not too thin, the angles are probably about right.

 

Understood, Mickey. And believe it or not, I did exactly that today (before I read this post of yours). The Principal was so sensitive that it became an exercise in frustration for me. The Nikko G was so much easier (although I'm far from proficient even using that one).

 

I do have some ruled guide sheets from Mr. Sull that came with the book. I was using them with my light box, but not using them properly...mostly just using them for the baseline and the slant lines. I was focusing totally on keeping thin strokes, without regard to aspect ratio or letter height. Totally trying for pen/touch control in those practice sheets I posted up. I just wanted to show you guys that I really have been working at it. I am so immersed in this stuff at the moment. My wife says that I'm obsessed, and she is probably right. (I've always had an obsessive personality when it comes to things that I'm interested in).

 

I'm using the guidesheets under some HP Premium Plus Laserjet paper, which isn't the best for this. I have a pad of Clairefontaine, but I hate to use it for practice because it's so expensive. Maybe when I get better.

 

May I ask for paper recommendations for the pointed pen. Not the stuff you use for saleable projects, but good inexpensive practice paper?

 

Someone gave me some Tomoe River paper...Ooooooohhhh...that stuff is like crazy good. But expensive.

[MusinkMan]

:roflmho: wanna buy a vowel!!!!

 

But serious, are you using a guideline sheet for all this?

 

I pulled on off some website that someone mentioned - yeah I know, try be more specific - and I am printing it out tomorrow when I get into town. I have tried to set it up to give me sort of squares as well so that I can size the horizontal diameters of my letters, you know, so all my tails on my letter l (if there are any left 'cause it looks like you used them all!!!) will be equidistant.

 

If it works I will email it to you. Hey, if it doesnt work I'll email it any way just to get rid of it :roflmho:

 

 

Oh yeah, Stomperoo...I'd love to have it. If you need my email addy, PM me.

[Stompie]

As far as paper goes, Ken uses Mondi Prestige IQ 100gsm - I have just ordered some myself for practice, it is almost £8 for a ream of 500 sheets so it is far less than the Rhodia I am using.

 

Yeah, I checked my emails and your email on the Manny round house toruga thing has gone somewhere so PM me your email addy mate.

[mboschm]

http://i1148.photobucket.com/albums/o565/mboschm/DSC_0326_zpsb0a8a671.jpg

 

My "e"s are inconsistent I know, but I use the "traditional running link" when writing "normally" so I mess up a little whenever I don't concentrate enough. Besides that, what do you think?

Edited April 2, 2013 by mboschm

[MusinkMan]

Nice work mboschm. Italics with a broad pen, right? I love the color of the ink too. Very Leonardo-esque. I thought your e's were ok. You know what I think is hurting you is that graph paper. All of those vertical lines are making it difficult for you to keep your slant consistent. That happens to me too, especially when I try to write on graph paper. I think it causes an optical illusion or something. But really a very cool piece of writing. Did you use a dip pen or a fountain italic for this one?