What Is The Old Brown Paper Bag Trick? (Oldgriz)

[FaZe_Intervene]

I see so many people recommending to do it. I have looked and I can't find what the actual procedure is. Can anyone help me?

[Shaporama]

Its a technique that some recommend for smoothing a nib. Frankly I found the results less than impressive, but maybe that was me doing something wrong. The theory is that the coarse paper used in shopping and sandwich bags, etc. is equivalent to some of the micromesh-type films used to "sand" nibs. You would draw figure eights across the paper using a loaded pen (for lubrication). You are to "roll" the nib while doing so to be sure that the action applies friction evenly across the nib's surface. I guess it count not hurt to try it; there are those who commend the ease and effectiveness of this approach.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Shaporama

[FaZe_Intervene]

Thanks a lot! Do you think you could go into a little bit more detail on how to actually preform the procedure?

[Shaporama]

This is from Bo Bo Olsen's January 2nd post on FPN. You can search for similar posts as well. He knows what he is doing:

 

 

Warning do use a good brown paper bag...no hairy ones.

 

Make sure the tines are aligned, first, last and always. You need a good loupe.

 

Don't normally do a lot of figure 8's...it can cause baby bottom if used too much.

Some of the experts have said so.I believe them.

 

OK, I buy old pens..."Vintage" that have sat around in a drawer for a generation or two.

'Iridium' can develop micro-corrosion.

The brown paper bag removes this micro-corrosion.

It is not for ruining a nib by making it butter smooth.

 

In that I look for smoothing to be nice and smooth...and others insist on butter smooth...we are not talking about the same thing when I say good and smooth. (For butter smooth go micro-mesh....very very carefully.) What has been removed costs over $70 to get it re-tipped.

 

 

The brown paper bag trick is 4-6 fifteen second sets...only. Only!!!!

 

A set is while rotating the pen to prevent flat spots, writing with normal pressure; circles left and right, squiggles left and right, up and down. & a few seconds of figure 8's.

 

(((In that I only figure 8 for a couple of seconds, I don't see that as a baby bottom making problem....We have been warned by folks with a lot of experience that excess figure 8's can make a baby bottom.)))

 

The brown paper bag is one of the least abrasive ways of smoothing a fountain pen to good and smooth.

What is good and smooth..it won't skate off the page of Clairefontaine or Rhoda. Butter smooth will.

 

Most start out looking for butter smooth, and change over to good and smooth.

There is a point between drags, some feel and butter smooth. Some slight feel is good and smooth. Touch of tooth is liked by many...touch of is where one can feel the texture of the paper. Many papers have texture...folks pay real good money for laid and linen papers and verge, hammered and a few others.

 

 

If your nib has not become good and smooth after 6 sets go to micro-mesh. (perhaps 8 sets.....but give it a day or so before trying again.)

 

A paper bag, or the back of a legal pad is more abrasive than paper.

For an 'iridium' nib to wear out you have to use that one pen, all day long for some 10-15 years...maybe 20.

In that none of us are ever going to do that, we won't wear out a nib in our life time.

So don't sweat it.

[OcalaFlGuy]

Please don't use the BPB, there are numerous reasons Not to.

 

DO Use the $2 or so multi-sided gritted manicure sticks from a beauty supply store. The less spongy padding, the better.

 

Old Griz wrote that tip BPB SEVERAL years ago. I would be Very Surprised if he still favors it over the manicure sticks or other abrasive films.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

[Nick A]

The problem with any of these nib "smoothing" techniques is, as was noted, the nib needs to be in the proper condition (aligned, etc). Make sure you correctly diagnose your nib before doing any grinding, smoothing, etc. Many vintage pens have used nibs that may have conformed to the hand of the last user, are damaged, sprung, etc. Those nib problems need to be corrected, not "smoothed".

[OldGriz]

Please don't use the BPB, there are numerous reasons Not to.

 

DO Use the $2 or so multi-sided gritted manicure sticks from a beauty supply store. The less spongy padding, the better.

 

Old Griz wrote that tip BPB SEVERAL years ago. I would be Very Surprised if he still favors it over the manicure sticks or other abrasive films.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

Bruce is absolutely right....

I now use the multi-grit manicure sticks.... the ones with three different grits... and also abrasive films... depending on how much smoothing I need to do....

[FaZe_Intervene]

Ok thanks everyone for the great tips :-)

[TimGirdler]

I have been trained in nib smoothing, by a fairly-knowledgeable guy, at that, and I can tell you that the brown paper bag thing is usually a recipe for disaster.

 

Some good reasons have already been stated--such as the inconsistency of the bag's surface. However, there are other reasons too. For instance, when properly smoothing a nib, the paper bag cannot get at the inevitable edge on the inner tines. Figure "8"s are a problem, as has been stated. It seems, however, that the "8"s are a problem on a spongy surface--ie. a micromesh stick. Doing too many "8"s on the stick can give baby's bottom. Since the bag isn't spongy, it isn't likely that the "8"s on the bag will get at the edge on the inner tines.

 

There is, indeed, a reason that many people who tune nibs for other people do not use "8"s very much, if at all. If you watch, the preferred motion is side-to-side while moving the stick, adjusting the angle from flat to 90-degrees in relation to the nib itself. But, in reality, this only works as a final smoothing step. Most of the work has been done with 2000-grit before getting to the smoothing stage.

 

Before I knew what I was doing, I had only moderate success, which is to say I only thought my nibs were smooth (I didn't do nibs for others at that point; I only tuned my own nibs). After I knew the proper way to do things, all of my own nibs had to be re-tuned.

 

It must also be said that using a bag for nib smoothing is much more likely to put foot onto the surface of the nib. And so, while it may feel smooth to you, in all likelihood, any smoothness is a result of a foot and the pen will only write for you at a particular angle.

 

It can be very fun and very rewarding to tinker with one's pens. And while there are different procedures built around sound nib-tuning principles used by different nib guys, the procedures and principles of the brown paper bag are none of these. For the expansion of fun, as opposed to the expansion of frustration, doing things the right way (or at least doing things in acceptable ways) is very important.

 

Tim

[OcalaFlGuy]

Mike Masuyama told me the same thing about figure 8's and baby's bottom. Circles, or letters very lightly stressing in the direction of the problem, no figure 8's.

 

The paperbag is just a mess on several counts. The "grit" isn't any standard size and reduces rapidly and even more rapidly when wet with ink. Detritus from that clogs slits. Even the beauty supply 3 side boards are much more standardized as to their grits. The finest being almost exactly what size many pros recommend for smoothing. They're crazy cheap and durable. Much more durable than the best paper bags.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

[pathobby]

Bruce,

 

Which particular '3 side boards' do you use? Where do you buy them?

 

PH

[OcalaFlGuy]

I do little nib smoothing. ("A man's got to know his limitations."-Inspector Harry Callahan) Nib work so far for me has been counterproductive. The odds are much better that it'll be worse off than better when I'm exasperated enough to stop trying.

 

But of course, a couple months later after I calm down, the prior poor attempts don't stop me from thinking I may suddenly figure it all out and I'll give it another try.

 

I still use a couple I got from Pendleton Brown. They're branded California Nails. The key point with them is the minimal spongy layer in the middle of them, they're stiffer than most of the others and that's what you want. I've seen pros use their lapping films on a piece of glass pane to be sure all is Perfectly Level and Flat. At least on the Cali Nails one, one side is all red (Salmon?), it's the roughest grit, then half of the other side is Turquoise then the other half, the finest is a Gray. I think most everyone uses the finest grit for smoothing. I think for manicures, Mo Spongy is better so you may have to look for the ones with the Least Amount of spongnicitiness.

 

The largest chain of beauty supply places I know of I think is called Sally's Beauty Supply. I would also feel confident getting the boards Richard Binder sells. Lord knows he knows what it takes to be a good one.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

[TimGirdler]

Posting During Superbowl....but, it's halftime!

 

There is a big difference between the boards that Richard sells and the ones you get at "Sally's." I've used both. I do not any longer. I used--exclusively so--the boards that Richard sells. The reason is simple: The Sally's boards clog the nib when smoothing. It isn't ink; it's the stuff from the board itself. Other than that, I don't know how to explain or describe it.

 

The Sally's sticks still work, but you have to do a major clean-out and a flossing after each smoothing attempt--and you have to floss just to get the pen to write at all.

 

The Sally's sticks make you work harder. They are still useful, but not nearly as much as the stuff Richard sells.

 

Tim

[Denali336]

I used the Brown Paper Bag trick with my esterbrook 2668 nib, which is not tipped. Initially, my nib was a bit scratchy when I was going up-left with it, but nothing else. I tried the paper bag thingy which I read about online and it fixed up my pen in a jiffy. I don't think that this put a foot or anything on my pen, since it already had a significant foot, but it certainly smoothed things out a bit. Unless you do it for an excessive period of time, it shouldn't mess up your pen or create a foot. Give it a shot!

 

Cheers

[OcalaFlGuy]

Posting During Superbowl....but, it's halftime!

 

There is a big difference between the boards that Richard sells and the ones you get at "Sally's." I've used both. I do not any longer. I used--exclusively so--the boards that Richard sells. The reason is simple: The Sally's boards clog the nib when smoothing. It isn't ink; it's the stuff from the board itself. Other than that, I don't know how to explain or describe it.

 

The Sally's sticks still work, but you have to do a major clean-out and a flossing after each smoothing attempt--and you have to floss just to get the pen to write at all.

 

The Sally's sticks make you work harder. They are still useful, but not nearly as much as the stuff Richard sells.

 

Tim

 

I've used my main California Nails stick probably 5-6 times, completely covered the gray half with ink smoothing, washed it with water and let dry. I've notice NO sloughing off of it's grit material. The pen definitely writes on the Cali sticks without clogging as I can cover the whole gray side with smoothing scribbles if need be.

 

I have no idea which "Sally's sticks" Tim has had issues with as at least in MY Sally's there's about 10 different sticks to choose from. If it were me, I'd pick 2-3 of the one's with the least amount of sponginess and ask the ladies there which is the most durable. They are familiar with using their products in worst case professional use conditions. I would assume sharp jagged fingernails would cause similar degradation to the sticks as a relative to a jagged fingernail, much smoother metal nib tip.

 

Point taken that Richard has done all the homeworky legwork and found the sticks that are the Best for nib work. OTOH, that also involves mail order and shipping fees.

 

The idea of the Sally's sticks was one of convenience AND results relative to the BPB idea. It's a lot more convenient to run down to a local beauty supply store that any town of any size has and snag a "proper substitute" Vs placing a mail order and waiting for them to arrive. Of course, if time and expense aren't as important issues, you'll get a known good product for pens from Richard.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

Edited February 4, 2013 by OcalaFlGuy

[publishing guy]

I've had pretty good results with a number of multi-sided nail sticks you can buy for a couple of bucks at any drugstore. Most seem to give me about the same results I achieve with Richard's sticks. I can't say that I've had problems with any of them.

 

The brown paper bag MIGHT work for a touch up. But I can't say I've ever smoothed a nib with one -- and I've tried.

 

The key -- moderation in all things. Smooth a little, test a little. Change position. Smooth a little. Test a little. Don't be too aggressive and don't apply too much pressure.

[TimGirdler]

I've used my main California Nails stick probably 5-6 times, completely covered the gray half with ink smoothing, washed it with water and let dry. I've notice NO sloughing off of it's grit material. The pen definitely writes on the Cali sticks without clogging as I can cover the whole gray side with smoothing scribbles if need be.

 

I have no idea which "Sally's sticks" Tim has had issues with as at least in MY Sally's there's about 10 different sticks to choose from. If it were me, I'd pick 2-3 of the one's with the least amount of sponginess and ask the ladies there which is the most durable. They are familiar with using their products in worst case professional use conditions. I would assume sharp jagged fingernails would cause similar degradation to the sticks as a relative to a jagged fingernail, much smoother metal nib tip.

 

Point taken that Richard has done all the homeworky legwork and found the sticks that are the Best for nib work. OTOH, that also involves mail order and shipping fees.

 

The idea of the Sally's sticks was one of convenience AND results relative to the BPB idea. It's a lot more convenient to run down to a local beauty supply store that any town of any size has and snag a "proper substitute" Vs placing a mail order and waiting for them to arrive. Of course, if time and expense aren't as important issues, you'll get a known good product for pens from Richard.

 

Bruce in Ocala, FL

 

It is very good to hear that there are other sticks that don't deposit gunk into the nib slit! The "Sally's" sticks are from Sally's Beauty Supply. The odd thing is, where I live, there appears to be only 1 type and style available that is reported to have 12,000-grit.

 

Yes, it is more convenient to go to certain local stores to get supplies, rather than wait for a package and pay shipping on said package. If you (the generic plural) have a local supplier and the stuff works, great! I don't think there's anything around where I live that will work as well as the stuff Richard sells. I tend to buy several packs of sticks at a time (from Richard). Buying them at pen shows is a very good way to save on shipping.

 

When I was looking for the proper materiel to make Vacumatic pump ejectors, I went to the local Hobby Lobby. They had some of what I was looking for, but I wound up ordering everything from their website. It was much easier and cost-effective in the long run. Sometimes you just gotta mail order!

 

Tim

[Bo Bo Olson]

In that I rotate my tip, and am only after removing iridium- micro-corrosion, and am cheap I find a good quality brown paper bag works just fine, for what I use it for.

 

As I have stated every time, I was not 'smoothing'/grinding a nib, but removing a bit of corrosion.

Everyone into micro mesh on this thread, kept saying grinding-smoothing the nib....which was not what I was saying.

 

Removal of micro-corrosion....but some folks really love a smooth nib...good, go to micro-mesh and be very, very careful.

 

In my case all but two pens, much/all of the drag or scratchiness of an old sat in a drawer for a couple of decades or a generation can be cured with a brown paper bag. If you write your circles and squiggles with normal pressure, it's very hard to ruin a nib the way I said to do it.

 

Which does not need a bag to be government graded to abrasiveness levels. If you don't know the difference between a good and a poor hairy paper bag...you are too young.

Go directly to micro-mesh.

 

Many rush to the micro-mesh, and really grind like a little devil. You can have the nib re-tipped for @ $70.It is hard to ruin a nib in 4-6 fifteen second sets of normal writing while rotating a nib tip.

Also a brown paper bag is so large you can make large or tiny circles and squiggles as you want.

 

If you really want it butter smooth...don't waste any time on a brown paper bag.

Don't buy too smooth paper either.

 

All I want is good and smooth, which is reachable with an almost free good quality brown paper bag.

 

What is good and smooth, if I buy a wet ink, it's butter smooth. If I buy a dry ink, I have 'tooth'.

 

What is butter smooth...if I buy a dry ink it is still butter smooth. If I buy a wet ink, I should never buy Clairefontaine paper.

 

Yep, bought the micro mesh set from Richard...some day will get around to the two pens that need it.

 

Everything else has "'smoothed'" up using a brown paper bag...and do rotate the tip to prevent a flat foot....I always mention that.

 

Could be you need to rotate the tip with micro-mesh too. :hmm1:

Edited April 3, 2013 by Bo Bo Olson

[torstar]

The first day of your new pen you are hyper-conscious of everything about writing with it.

 

You get the feeling that if it doesn't feel like a frictionless surface or it makes a scratching sound that it is defective and you should take it back.

 

But after 3 days you get used to the pen's unique qualities and don't think about much else beyond writing what you have to write.