Stub O' The Day

[Cryptos]

David (dms525), how sharp are the italic grinds from Mr Mottishaw? I have a stub nib (Pilot 78) and a fine CI (Parson's Essential), but I really enjoy the sharpness of the line I get with an Osmiroid medium italic (I think it's about 0.8mm).

[tinta]

 

Thanks, Tinta.

 

The Waterman Le Man 100 Opera was made in the early 1990's as a limited edition. I believe 5000 were made. They were meant to pay homage to the chased hard rubber pens of the 1920's, but were actually made of resin over brass. The wave-like guilloche pattern is lovely, isn't it? It is a C/C pen and looks, feels and writes as you would expect of a top quality fountain pen. Mine came with an 18Kt Fine nib. It wrote a very fine, smooth line. However, I use pens almost entirely for italic script, and I wanted to use this pen, not just own it as a collector's piece. So I was very happy to find a used Man 100 nib on nibs.com that was suitable for grinding into a cursive italic. John did his usual splendid job, and I expect to enjoy using this pen regularly.

 

I think I saw about 3 to 5 Man 100 Operas for sale by various vintage pen vendors at the San Francisco Pen Show last weekend. There always seem to be some for sale on ebay. They are very much "in circulation." If you find one that has been kept in good shape and the price seems reasonable, it's a great pen for a collection or to use. The Opera has a "sibling," another Man 100 with a different guilloche pattern on the same "canvas." It is called the "Arlequin." The same number of Arlequins was made, but it seems they are very much rarer in the USA, anyway. For your interest, here is a photo of the Waterman Arlequin and another of the Arlequin alongside the Waterman Opera and a Conway Stewart Wellington Celebration, another of my pens of modern manufacture made to resemble a vintage chased hard rubber pen.

 

Waterman Man 100 Arlequin_1273_edited-1.jpg

 

CS-Celebration-Wellington-engrave-compair_1891.jpg

 

Thanks for asking!

 

David

I am glad I asked, David. Your thoughtful & detailed reply (with beautiful photos) has made all of us following this popular thread a little richer.

Thanks, Istvan

Edited September 3, 2015 by tinta

[dms525]

David (dms525), how sharp are the italic grinds from Mr Mottishaw? I have a stub nib (Pilot 78) and a fine CI (Parson's Essential), but I really enjoy the sharpness of the line I get with an Osmiroid medium italic (I think it's about 0.8mm).

 

As with all of the best nib technicians, the crispness of the nib John grinds is according to the customer's wishes. There is no accepted metric for this, although specification of the widest line written combined with the ratio of the widest to the finest lines written seems logical. The problem being that most users are not equipped to make sufficiently precise measurements of these parameters. Anyway, if you have anyone custom grind an italic nib for you, insist on having a conversation with them about just what you want. You will find it educational as well as making it more likely you get something you like. They may have a number of specific but hard to answer questions such as the angle at which you hold the pen, your typical writing pressure and your preference for ink flow. After watching me write, Michael Masuyama changed how he ground italic nibs for me based one the speed with which I wrote! (Slower writing permits a sharper nib.) If you can't be face-to-face with the nib technician, he/she may ask you to submit a writing sample.

 

I will tell you this though: If you have many nibs ground over a period of years by the same person, you will find you both learn what you like, and the customizations will get increasingly better. It's a process.

 

I don't have a Parson's Essential, although I probably will eventually, because of all the positive things I have read about them. I have several Pilot 78G's with both B and BB nibs, and I have used Osmiroids since college, in the last Ice Age. FYI, the Osmiroid M nib is supposedly 0.9 mm. Aren't they wonderful? What a shame they are no longer made.

 

I hope this answered you question and it's not TMI.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[sexauerw]

 

As with all of the best nib technicians, the crispness of the nib John grinds is according to the customer's wishes. There is no accepted metric for this, although specification of the widest line written combined with the ratio of the widest to the finest lines written seems logical. The problem being that most users are not equipped to make sufficiently precise measurements of these parameters <clip>

 

 

David

Probably more people are equipped to make the measurements than they realize. What I do is to write my thin and thick lines and then scan them with the maximum resolution of my scanner. In my case that's 1200 dpi. I import the scan into Photoshop and enlarge the image view to match the resolution, 1200%.* Then I use the brush tool and adjust the tool diameter to match the line width. Suppose that I get 40 pixels. That's 40/1200 of an inch, or .033", or .85mm; a pretty precise measurement that I made without using any special tools or software that I didn't already have.

 

*The image magnification is not critical to the measurement. It's just handy to do it that way to make the image large enough to properly judge the size of the brush tool vs the line width. Without enough magnification it's much more difficult to do this.

[dms525]

Probably more people are equipped to make the measurements than they realize. What I do is to write my thin and thick lines and then scan them with the maximum resolution of my scanner. In my case that's 1200 dpi. I import the scan into Photoshop and enlarge the image view to match the resolution, 1200%.* Then I use the brush tool and adjust the tool diameter to match the line width. Suppose that I get 40 pixels. That's 40/1200 of an inch, or .033", or .85mm; a pretty precise measurement that I made without using any special tools or software that I didn't already have.

 

*The image magnification is not critical to the measurement. It's just handy to do it that way to make the image large enough to properly judge the size of the brush tool vs the line width. Without enough magnification it's much more difficult to do this.

 

I'm sure you are correct, Bill. I have the kind of hardware and software you describe, but I routinely use the old fashioned method of making a "stack" of lines, measuring the stack and dividing by the number of lines to get nib width.

 

David

[dms525]

Having just returned from the SF Pan Show where I had a bunch of nibs ground to cursive italics. I am sharing another of them today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Incidentally, as the ink dried, it revealed an unexpected amount of sheen. Rather nice, I think ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wait a minute! How did that sneak in? Oh, yeah. That's to remind me that Man cannot live by ink alone. And that it's lunch time.

 

Happy writing!

 

David

[Pincel]

This just came in today:

[saskia_madding]

So you were the one who snagged it! I was watching that auction but decided I had enough triumph stubs on snorkels, and that I could give this one a pass. Think of me if you ever wish to sell it though! It's lovely. Post more pictures please!

[jmccarty3]

I have been looking for italic nibs for Waterman Le Man 100's for a couple years. I finally found one, practically in my back yard!

 

 

 

I have three Waterman Le Man 100s (two are Operas), and will have to ask John what interesting nibs he has available. They are beautiful pens.

[Pincel]

So you were the one who snagged it! I was watching that auction but decided I had enough triumph stubs on snorkels, and that I could give this one a pass. Think of me if you ever wish to sell it though! It's lovely. Post more pictures please!

 

Don't worry it's safe here on our side of the border. From now on, I shall always be thinking about you.

 

Imperial AS9 Stub Imperial IV TD Imperial AS9 Triumph 506X

Edited September 4, 2015 by Haribon

[dms525]

 

I have three Waterman Le Man 100s (two are Operas), and will have to ask John what interesting nibs he has available. They are beautiful pens.

 

They have one more listed at Pre-Owned Waterman. However, there may be other used Waterman Man 100 nibs unlisted.

 

I have regretted not using my Man 100's more for a long time, so I'm super happy to have this nib. I also have 3 Man 100's. Besides the Opera, I have an Arlequin and the later series Patrician in Lapis. They may have to take turns using the italic nib.

 

Good luck finding the nib you want for your Man 100's.

 

David

Edited September 4, 2015 by dms525

[jmccarty3]

 

They have one more listed at Pre-Owned Waterman.

 

The left oblique they have listed is quite tempting, but I will check with them about anything else they might have on hand.

[gordonhooker]

Pardon my ignorance but when you talk about stubs are you talking about italic nibs? I have a Lamy Vista with a 1.1 italic nib, is that a stub?

[dms525]

Pardon my ignorance but when you talk about stubs are you talking about italic nibs? I have a Lamy Vista with a 1.1 italic nib, is that a stub?

 

The terms used to describe various nib tip configurations can certainly be confusing. The differences between a stub, a cursive italic and a formal italic nib are usually agreed upon qualitatively, but they are really not precise. Here is a link to John Mottishaw's definitions with illustrations:

 

Nib Customizations

 

Richard Binder has an even more detailed exposition here:

 

Nibs I: The Basics

Nibs II: Beyond the Basics with Specialty Nibs

Nibs III: Flex vs. Italic

 

The short answer to your question is, stubs and italics are different, but the difference is where they fall along a continuum.

 

David

Edited September 4, 2015 by dms525

[gordonhooker]

 

The terms used to describe various nib tip configurations can certainly be confusing. The differences between a stub, a cursive italic and a formal italic nib are usually agreed upon qualitatively, but they are really not precise. Here is a link to John Mottishaw's definitions with illustrations:

 

Nib Customizations

 

Richard Binder has an even more detailed exposition here:

 

Nibs I: The Basics

Nibs II: Beyond the Basics with Specialty Nibs

Nibs III: Flex vs. Italic

 

The short answer to your question is, stubs and italics are different, but the difference is where they fall along a continuum.

 

David

 

Thank you David I will go away and read up on the subject via your link.

[saskia_madding]

 

Don't worry it's safe here on our side of the border. From now on, I shall always be thinking about you.

 

Imperial AS9 Stub Imperial IV TD Imperial AS9 Triumph 506X

 

 

Score one for Team Canada! I'll be glad to be linked to such a lovely pen. Thanks for the pictures!

[Zhenni]

All the pens and inks here are amazing.

 

(Reduced file quality so it would attach, might have gone too far...)

Edited September 5, 2015 by Zhenni

[Arieut]

Having just returned from the SF Pan Show where I had a bunch of nibs ground to cursive italics. I am sharing another of them today.

 

1 Italic nibs - 29.jpg

 

Incidentally, as the ink dried, it revealed an unexpected amount of sheen. Rather nice, I think ...

 

1 Sheen - 30.jpg

 

 

Hi David,

 

The line variation here looks wonderful, and that is some handwriting!

 

How much is the CI harder to control than a stub? And is it possible to get a stub ground to a very fine cross-stroke, still with round edges (like writing with a ruler with rounded corners)?

 

Thanks!

[dms525]

 

Hi David,

 

The line variation here looks wonderful, and that is some handwriting!

 

How much is the CI harder to control than a stub? And is it possible to get a stub ground to a very fine cross-stroke, still with round edges (like writing with a ruler with rounded corners)?

 

Thanks!

 

Hi, Arieut.

 

In my view, Stub-Cursive Italic-Formal italic is a continuum. I happen to like my nibs on the crisp side of CI. Still, most of them can be used for cursive. However, italic script is my everyday handwriting. That said, Cursive Italic nibs will be significantly more sensitive to nib position on the paper than a stub. The other side of this is that, if you hold your pen consistently with the nib at the optimal angle to the writing line, you will get better line thickness differentiation out of any nib, even a stub. And it will still seem to write smoothly. (I hope that makes sense. One of the ways of looking at the continuum is that the Stub has a much larger "sweet spot" than the Italic nib. Thus, it is more forgiving as to how you hold the pen as you write.)

 

If you are considering having a nib ground for you, I strongly recommend discussing your desires with the nib technician before hand. The more information he/she has about what you want and how you write, the more likely you are to get a nib that meets your needs.

 

David

[dms525]

 

 

 

 

David