Comparison Between Namiki Falcon And Mottishaw's Spencerian Flex Falcon

[Andrew_L]

Hi! Can you see the geometric difference on the nib between the original nib and after adding flexibility? Why has this flexibility increased?

[mroctober]

This is great post. I keep hoping that someone will come out with a vintage flex replacement. Sad to see this isn't quite it, but I'm not surprised.

[Honeybadgers]

Hi! Can you see the geometric difference on the nib between the original nib and after adding flexibility? Why has this flexibility increased?

 

 

Flex is added by grinding the nib's underside so it becomes thinner. Not much can be taken off, and I don't really think much flex is actually added, the nib just becomes easier to flex.

 

I should reinforce the statement that even with the spencerian modificaiton, this is not a flex nib pen. It can put down gentle shades and write a fine spencerian very nicely, but if true flex is desired from a modern pen, I would recommend getting a pilot 743/742 with an FA nib and having THAT ground to a needlepoint, as it will give very dramatic flex (about as good as a vintage semi or full flex nib) and you can also get ebonite feeds from flexible nib factory for them.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Honeybadgers

[Honeybadgers]

This is great post. I keep hoping that someone will come out with a vintage flex replacement. Sad to see this isn't quite it, but I'm not surprised.

 

Pilot's #10 and #15 FA nibs are as close as it gets. It is quite flexible, lacks a bit of snap but safely gives you a semiflex to full flex experience. The reality is that the metallurgy of making the very specific alloy of 14k gold required for vintage flex fountain pen nibs just isn't being made. The cost, demand and logistics just aren't there, so we probably never will see a true vintage flex nib in a modern pen again.

[A Smug Dill]

The cost, demand and logistics just aren't there, so we probably never will see a true vintage flex nib in a modern pen again.

 

Which makes perfect sense if 'nobody', or just not enough paying customers, want that particular product or thing with the particular characteristic, and those few who still want it don't want to pay what it takes to get it made today.

 

Yesteryear (or last century) is gone. Yesteryear's prices for a certain something mean nothing today; but I'm all for, "I'm a learned user and consumer who just knows what I want, I know it can be done because it's been done before, and even if every one-man-one-pen user last century could get that for $10 but now it would cost me $1,000 for a new unit, I'm still prepared to pay for it because my tastes and requirements are not like the vast majority's today, so name your price!"

 

Believe it or not, I truly don't want flex (don't say vintage flex, when the flex required can be described objectively without any frame of reference alluding to something that "only existed in the past") to vanish from the landscape, even if it's a boutique and niche thing today that only a few thousand users care about and only (say) 2% of those few thousand are prepared to pay through their noses to get it. It makes me sad that everyone keeps harping on about "vintage flex" but few are prepare to put the money-for-the-taking into creating that market (such that a new supply would arise).

 

If modding a currently produced stock nib (at a 'premium' to pay for the after-market service by a nibmeister) still doesn't satisfy, then it's time for fans to up the ante, and put more money on the table for their, well, very specific requirements to be met today.

[Andrew_L]

Any question can be solved: there is a reasonable solution, there is an optimal solution, there is an effective solution, and there is "I want because I want". For cheap and effective flexibility, I can buy a magical point nib Hunt, Gillot or similar and oblique holder. For the optimal solution, I can buy a good vintage pen and go to a nibmaster for nidlepoint (I can make itself:)). For first step with smart decision, we can buy Falcon, FA or Noodler's flex. But I don't see the point in buying the Montblanc Flex last year models for 1000$, because it is too expensive and not as good as it should be .

 

ps: but here no one complains, we just discuss topics of interest to us

 

to Honeybadgers : thanks to info

[cellmatrix]

I feel like my problem in writing spencerian with a fountain pen, is not the degree of flex, as being discussed here, I find that a lot of modern and vintage pens can flex sufficiently for Spencerian.

 

Instead I find that the main problem is getting the flow right. Spencerian requires extremely fine hairpin lines for the majority of characters and only requires flex a minority of the time. So, on one hand you need to have a high flow during flexing to avoid railroading but then have an extreme attenuation of flow to maintain a hairline.

 

The problem is, that most vintage flex fountain pens have an ink flow that is too high such that you cannot maintain the hairpin thin lines needed for Spencerian, as can be achieved with dip pens. This is the shortcoming of vintage flex fountain pens, which are better suited to copperplate/english roundhand than Spencerian. Copperplate is not so demanding of the sort of hairlines required by Spencerian and therefore, in my experience, its much more feasible using vintage flex fountain pens for copperplate rather than spencerian.

 

I have a minuskin modified Spencerian pilot 912 FA as well as vintage flex Wahl and waterman pens as well as pilot extra fine soft falcon. Of them, my minuskin Spencerian modified pen gives best hairlines and flex without railroading most of the time depending on the ink you are using. However even it cannot come close to the precision you get with a dip nib.

 

I have come to realize vintage and new modified flex fountain pens work ok for copperplate, but are not so great for spencerian. And it has less to do with the degree of flex of the nib, which is mainly being discussed in this thread, and more to do with the flow characteristics of fountain pens.

 

Bottom line if you want to write Spencerian you can get by sort of with a fountain pen, but if you really want to do it well, you need a dip pen with a great spencerian style nib like a Nikko G, Zebra G, hunt 101 etc.

 

Probably the best spencerian I have seen on a fountain pen is by Schin, from open inkstand, one of the early posters on this thread. She is really super talented at Spencerian, and if she is reading this, I just want to say thanks because I've learned a lot from seeing her videos. But even Schin will be the first to tell you that dip pens are much better for Spencerian than fountain pens.

[cunim]

Guys, there is a thread about pens with unusual nibs over in the photography area. I'd love to see some pictures of these with writing samples.

[Andrew_L]

Guys, there is a thread about pens with unusual nibs over in the photography area. I'd love to see some pictures of these with writing samples.

 

My sample on previous page

[cellmatrix]

 

My sample on previous page

You really are talented Andrew! You show so well the best that can be achieved with a flex fountain pen.

 

I also have a falcon SEF and while it is great for your copperplate style writing, its not so great for Spencerian at least in my hands, as it is a pretty wet writer.

[cunim]

 

My sample on previous page

Great writing sample, drawing and photo. I'm hoping to see more such images in one place. Consider reposting?

[Andrew_L]

cellmatrix: Thank you, but I'm only learning when I don't have enough time

 

cunim: Thanks. Yes of course, if you want you can repost it. More examples can be seen on my site in the description of various pens and other topics. Site in signature.

[cellmatrix]

cellmatrix: Thank you, but I'm only learning when I don't have enough time

your writing inspires me and I am sure others on the site. Keep up the good work!

[Andrew_L]

Today I tested new pen with new nib:)

 

It is not Falcon, but I think if it customized with grind to XEF with added flexibility with cut part of shoulders(like FA) it would be like a Falcon:) I think:)

 

 

 

 

(Pilot Custom 742 w|SF nib, J.Herbin 1670 Bleu Ocean, Double A(A4))

 

 

More: https://lenskiy.org/2020/09/modern-pilot-custom-742-sf/

 

 

[Andrew_L]

Very interesting hybrid based on Pilot Namiki Falcon, I think:)

 

(Hybrid Pilot Namiki Falcon with PenBBS 487 magnetic piston, Pelikan Edelstein Onyx, Double A(A4))

 

Review: http://lenskiy.org/2020/11/modern-hybrid-pilot-namiki-falcon-with-penbbs-487/

[MuddyWaters]

This type of filler won't lead to ink coming in contact with metal parts of the falcon section?

[Andrew_L]

6 hours ago, MuddyWaters said:

This type of filler won't lead to ink coming in contact with metal parts of the falcon section?

 

Nothing extra, except for those that would be in contact when using the original body. (Falcon used same plastic section in regular and metal version)

[Honeybadgers]

On 9/14/2020 at 6:15 AM, cellmatrix said:

I feel like my problem in writing spencerian with a fountain pen, is not the degree of flex, as being discussed here, I find that a lot of modern and vintage pens can flex sufficiently for Spencerian.

 

Instead I find that the main problem is getting the flow right. Spencerian requires extremely fine hairpin lines for the majority of characters and only requires flex a minority of the time. So, on one hand you need to have a high flow during flexing to avoid railroading but then have an extreme attenuation of flow to maintain a hairline.

 

The problem is, that most vintage flex fountain pens have an ink flow that is too high such that you cannot maintain the hairpin thin lines needed for Spencerian, as can be achieved with dip pens. This is the shortcoming of vintage flex fountain pens, which are better suited to copperplate/english roundhand than Spencerian. Copperplate is not so demanding of the sort of hairlines required by Spencerian and therefore, in my experience, its much more feasible using vintage flex fountain pens for copperplate rather than spencerian.

 

I have a minuskin modified Spencerian pilot 912 FA as well as vintage flex Wahl and waterman pens as well as pilot extra fine soft falcon. Of them, my minuskin Spencerian modified pen gives best hairlines and flex without railroading most of the time depending on the ink you are using. However even it cannot come close to the precision you get with a dip nib.

 

I have come to realize vintage and new modified flex fountain pens work ok for copperplate, but are not so great for spencerian. And it has less to do with the degree of flex of the nib, which is mainly being discussed in this thread, and more to do with the flow characteristics of fountain pens.

 

Bottom line if you want to write Spencerian you can get by sort of with a fountain pen, but if you really want to do it well, you need a dip pen with a great spencerian style nib like a Nikko G, Zebra G, hunt 101 etc.

 

Probably the best spencerian I have seen on a fountain pen is by Schin, from open inkstand, one of the early posters on this thread. She is really super talented at Spencerian, and if she is reading this, I just want to say thanks because I've learned a lot from seeing her videos. But even Schin will be the first to tell you that dip pens are much better for Spencerian than fountain pens.

 

You're absolutely, dead nuts, in every way...

 

Completely right. Especially about Schin. 

 

My only point of disagreement would be that I don't think "Copperplate" is a good script to recommend anyone with an FP try. The script CAN be done, but most people think of copperplate with its fat, enormous shades more than its style, and that will result in a lot of cracked and overstressed nibs. Possible, and arguably better for FP's? Totally. But most newbies would look at a writing sample or demo of someone using a dip nib, and get a very, very broken nib very shortly thereafter

But I agree that spencerian has far more to do with the visual distinction between the shades and the hairlines. I would argue that a lot of FP's can do spencerian better than copperplate just as a matter of spencerian having, in general script, less demanding shades because it requires a proper needlepoint, that it is less likely to damage the nib. But the problem thereafter is that nibs just ain't ground finely enough anymore. I really, really wish pen makers would start offering superfine nibs that are in the XXF/needlepoint range. Osprey started making an XXF nib that is superb, but it's not quite a needlepoint, more like on the finer side of a japanese EF. The only "factory" needlepoint I know of is the platinum 3776 UEF, but that can be a bit of a QC hit-or-miss. So for now, we just need to get our stuff reground. Gena Salorino is probably the fastest, least expensive and most reliable nibmeister right now that can turn out a proper needlepoint.

[Honeybadgers]

On 12/19/2020 at 8:17 AM, Andrew_L said:

Very interesting hybrid based on Pilot Namiki Falcon, I think:)

 

(Hybrid Pilot Namiki Falcon with PenBBS 487 magnetic piston, Pelikan Edelstein Onyx, Double A(A4))

 

Review: http://lenskiy.org/2020/11/modern-hybrid-pilot-namiki-falcon-with-penbbs-487/

 

Sweet. Meaty. Jesus.

 

The section/nib also fits the 355. And it REFUSES to railroad now.

 

Well, rest in peace, metal falcon body.