Did Wahl Eversharp Ever Came With Warranted Nibs?

[pokermon]

I'm curious if the Gold Seal Eversharps ever came with Warranted nibs or have Wahl always made their own nibs? I want to know because I might pick up the suspected pen, but if the nib isn't original I probably won't. Thanks for the help guys!

[Procyon]

  On 12/30/2012 at 1:34 AM, pokermon said:

I'm curious if the Gold Seal Eversharps ever came with Warranted nibs or have Wahl always made their own nibs? I want to know because I might pick up the suspected pen, but if the nib isn't original I probably won't. Thanks for the help guys!

 

 

Yes, they did sometimes come with Warranted nibs. I have 3 Deco Bands that have Warranted #7 nibs, and I have good reason to believe they are original. One thing you might be overlooking is that Wahl more than likely manufactured these nibs. They had a large nib production, and needed to keep them busy, so they made generic-looking Warranted nibs for other pen makers. Some of these got installed into Wahl pens because it was cost effective to do so, if they had a surplus of them.

 

Syd will know a lot more about this subject than I do, so I hope he will chime in.

 

Regards, Allan Goforth

[Roger W.]

I think undrilled gold seals should have Wahl nibs whereas drilled or "X" seals will come with warranted nibs.

 

Roger W.

[pokermon]

What is drilled or undrilled? And the specimen in question does have a Warranted #7 nib.

[Procyon]

  On 12/30/2012 at 2:37 AM, Roger W. said:

I think undrilled gold seals should have Wahl nibs whereas drilled or "X" seals will come with warranted nibs.

 

Roger W.

 

 

 

I have to disagree. One of mine has a drilled seal, the other two do not. However, it wouldn't surprise me if they tended to put Warranted nibs on pens with the drilled seal. I think that is the only one I have with a drilled seal, so it may be that all drilled seals have warranted nibs, but warranted nibs exist on undrilled seals as well.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Procyon

[Procyon]

  On 12/30/2012 at 2:41 AM, pokermon said:

What is drilled or undrilled? And the specimen in question does have a Warranted #7 nib.

 

 

The gold seal signified a lifetime warranty. Wahl decided to sell some of these pens without the warranty, and drilled a hole in the seal to indicate this. This may have been after a court ruling against giving lifetime warranties, not sure about this.

[Roger W.]

  On 12/30/2012 at 2:55 AM, Procyon said:

  On 12/30/2012 at 2:37 AM, Roger W. said:

I think undrilled gold seals should have Wahl nibs whereas drilled or "X" seals will come with warranted nibs.

 

Roger W.

 

 

 

I have to disagree. One of mine has a drilled seal, the other two do not.

 

That nibs are hard to ascertain as to their original position in the pen makes such position shaky to say the least. The gold seal by definition would have had Wahl's best nib. That such a nib is not in the pen today becomes relevant if we have a large number of undrilled seals with warranted nibs. I know more about tempoints so we are getting beyond where I have a lot of evidence (also, I don't remember previous discussions on this point as this question has likely been handled in the past). So, I propose in theory that Wahl had Wahl marked nibs in undrilled seal pens. I'd take Sid's words on it if he's seen warranted nibs to be prevalent in undrilled seals as well. I just don't have enough of these to make the case from an actual examples point of view (and a sample of three doesn't get me there but, I'm listening).

 

Roger W.

[Procyon]

  On 12/30/2012 at 3:09 AM, Roger W. said:

  On 12/30/2012 at 2:55 AM, Procyon said:

  On 12/30/2012 at 2:37 AM, Roger W. said:

I think undrilled gold seals should have Wahl nibs whereas drilled or "X" seals will come with warranted nibs.

 

Roger W.

 

 

 

I have to disagree. One of mine has a drilled seal, the other two do not.

 

That nibs are hard to ascertain as to their original position in the pen makes such position shaky to say the least. The gold seal by definition would have had Wahl's best nib. That such a nib is not in the pen today becomes relevant if we have a large number of undrilled seals with warranted nibs. I know more about tempoints so we are getting beyond where I have a lot of evidence (also, I don't remember previous discussions on this point as this question has likely been handled in the past). So, I propose in theory that Wahl had Wahl marked nibs in undrilled seal pens. I'd take Sid's words on it if he's seen warranted nibs to be prevalent in undrilled seals as well. I just don't have enough of these to make the case from an actual examples point of view (and a sample of three doesn't get me there but, I'm listening).

 

Roger W.

 

 

Roger, I guess I might be on somewhat shaky ground trying to refute your proposition from such a small sample size. However, one of my pens does come with a story that says it is original. Of course, I suppose that could be mistaken, but, at some point, you have to believe in something. Anyway, 2 out of 3 ain't bad - to quote somebody (maybe Meatloaf - which doesn't help my case much). Anyway, I would like to hear from Syd.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Procyon

[pokermon]

Oic what you guys mean by drilled now. Never knew they did that to their non-lifetime warranty pens. Well the one I'm looking at is undrilled and has a Warranted #7 nib. So I think maybe these were original if other FPN members has a few with the same exact nib. Can't be coincidence right?

[Procyon]

  On 12/30/2012 at 4:20 AM, pokermon said:

Oic what you guys mean by drilled now. Never knew they did that to their non-lifetime warranty pens. Well the one I'm looking at is undrilled and has a Warranted #7 nib. So I think maybe these were original if other FPN members has a few with the same exact nib. Can't be coincidence right?

 

 

Well, I contend that the nib is probably original, and Roger thinks it is not, although we both have open minds on the matter, if I interpret Roger's post correctly. I would believe whatever Syd has to say on this subject. Maybe we can awaken him from his slumber.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Procyon

[Roger W.]

  On 12/30/2012 at 4:28 AM, Procyon said:

  On 12/30/2012 at 4:20 AM, pokermon said:

Oic what you guys mean by drilled now. Never knew they did that to their non-lifetime warranty pens. Well the one I'm looking at is undrilled and has a Warranted #7 nib. So I think maybe these were original if other FPN members has a few with the same exact nib. Can't be coincidence right?

 

 

Well, I contend that the nib is probably original, and Roger thinks it is not, although we both have open minds on the matter, if I interpret Roger's post correctly. I would believe whatever Syd has to say on this subject. Maybe we can awaken him from his slumber.

 

I would think a non sealed pen with a warranted #7 right as rain. Any non lifetime could have a warranted nib.

 

Roger W.

[Roger W.]

And to add to the non scientific results - the three gold seal pens I have have matching gold seal nibs and the "X" that I had was a warranted nib - which is what I would expect. Still, the nibs could have been upgraded to sell the pens better though on the BCHR one it was sourced more from the wild so I think it likely original - the other two I got on EBay or a pen show so who knows for sure.

 

Roger W.

[Procyon]

Just to add to the stats, I checked all my Wahl-Eversharp pens this morning. Here's the summary:

 

Deco Bands - Total 14 pens

2 Drilled seal, both have Warranted nibs

12 Intact seal, 2 have Warranted nibs, 10 have W/E nibs

 

 

Other Flat Tops - Total 26 pens

14 have intact seal, all have W/E nibs

12 have no seal, all have W/E nibs

 

 

Equi-Poised - Total 3 pens

1 Drilled seal, it has Warranted nib

2 Intact seal, both have W/E nibs

 

 

Dorics - Total 7 pens

5 have Intact seal, all have W/E nibs

2 have no seal, both have W/E nibs

 

Note when I say W/E nibs, there was some variation - some of the earlier ones were labeled "Wahl" with no mention of Gold Seal on the nib.

 

In summary, out of a total of 50 Wahl-Eversharp pens, I have 5 pens with a Warranted Nib. 3 of these have a Drilled Gold Seal, 2 have an Intact Gold Seal.

[crescentfiller]

I picked up two Gold Seal ringtops in the wild this summer--from different sources. One was drilled, while the other was not. Each pen had a Wahl nib. Neither pen had seen any attention or restoration in a very long time.

 

I don't know that this means anything, but it is grist for your mill.

[Wahlnut]

Theres been a lot written on the subjects presented here. I will look up the previous ones and edit this post with the links as soon as I can find the time, but for now heres the crash course of info best is known at present:

 

1) The company made their own warranted nibs for Wahl, Wahl-Eversharp, and Eversharp pens. See #7 below for more on this

 

2) Warranted nibs were used in some sub brands made by Wahl. Warranted nibs were also made by WAHL/EVERSHARP for sale to other pen makers too.

 

3) Warranted Nibs were installed in Drilled and X Gold Seal pens (to void the guarantee nothiong on the pen could say Gold Seal or have a valid Gold Seal. And since Lifetime Guarantee pens had both, both had to be altered and drilling the hole in the gold seal alone was not enough to void or disqualify the pen from Lifetime Guarantee. The Glld Seal nib had to come out too and was replaced with a friction fit section, feed and WARRANTED nib.

 

4) Drilled Gold seal pens also did not come with Personal Point screw-in screw-out sections or collared nib and feed assemblies that were always in un-drilled gold seal fully guaranteed pens

 

5) The Federal Trade Commission ruling against Lifetime Guarantees was related to the service charge or shipping fees the pen companies charged their customers in "honoring" their guarantee. Guarantee according to the FTC means at no charge at all. Thats a whole discussion on its own, but that ruling was in about 1945, and the pens in question were drilled in about 1930-31.

 

6) X seals were another way of identifying pens that were not guaranteed for life. Generally, Making a pen and making gold seals the pen goes through various production stages and different departments at the factory handled different steps. The pens were not all made by one guy. At the risk of oversimplifying this, In the process of assembly line production of the Deco Band pens for example one area prepared the plastic elements of the caps and barrels for receiving their furniture and another area handled the stage of applying the furniture. So in the production stream at the time the decision was made to close out the Deco Band or the Equipoised for example, there were hundreds of pens in various stages of production and some already had good gold seals applied - they got drilled, and some were already cut with a hole in the cap to receive the gold seal, and those got X seals. Drilled or X seals in the era in question were closeouts at the end of the design run and sold to jobbers or large dealers as closeout pens both here and in Canada and across the pond.

 

7) Wahl had its very own gold department and their interoffice phone directory identifies the departments mentioned above as well as the Gold Department. I have several documents and photos showing the production stages of the nibs in the gold department, and they could be stamped with whatever name was desired: WAHL, WAHL PEN, WAHL EVERSHARP, WAHL EVERSHARP GOLD SEAL, EVERSHARP, SELECT-O-POINT (found in some 1939-40 Oxfords), and WARRANTED. Warranted simply means it was warranted to be whatever Karat level was also stamped on the nib.

 

8) Warranted nibs were numbered in between the Standard nibs (a #6 Wahl nib is the same size as a Warranted #7, for example. and a Warranted #5 is the same size as Wahl #4.

 

Hope this helps to get a line on these issues.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

Syd

Edited January 1, 2013 by Wahlnut

[Procyon]

Syd,

 

That is good information, but the real question, at least in my mind, was whether Wahl-Eversharp originally installed Warranted nibs on some of their undrilled Gold Seal pens. I have two Deco Bands with undrilled Gold Seals and Warranted #7 nibs. Are these original? I contend they are, since one of them is from my family and is original, according to family stories.

 

Regards,

Allan

Edited January 1, 2013 by Procyon

[Wahlnut]

  On 1/1/2013 at 6:24 AM, Procyon said:

Syd,

 

That is good information, but the real question, at least in my mind, was whether Wahl-Eversharp originally installed Warranted nibs on some of their undrilled Gold Seal pens. I have two Deco Bands with undrilled Gold Seals and Warranted #7 nibs. Are these original? I contend they are, since one of them is from my family and is original, according to family stories.

 

Regards,

Allan

 

At the risk of sounding too cut and dried (there could be some other explanation I suppose), but Un-drilled Gold Seal Pens had Gold Seal nibs. It is possible a nib was replaced way back in the day by a dealer. Dealers had repair kits and had a supply of nibs to work with in addition to the Gold Seal nibs on hand. Also if I had a gold seal pen and wanted a different nib, say a flex where I had a Manifold, I might have to get a warranted 7 flex nib if doing so after normal production run. I assume the section in your pens are all Personal Point. If not then I believe something is amiss.

Syd

[pokermon]

Thanks Syd. Very informative info. Thank you all for the knowledge, and help you guys have provided.

[Vintagepens]

  On 1/1/2013 at 6:02 AM, Wahlnut said:

2) Warranted nibs were used in some sub brands made by Wahl. Warranted nibs were also made by WAHL/EVERSHARP for sale to other pen makers too.

 

  Quote

5) The Federal Trade Commission ruling against Lifetime Guarantees was related to the service charge or shipping fees the pen companies charged their customers in "honoring" their guarantee. Guarantee according to the FTC means at no charge at all. Thats a whole discussion on its own, but that ruling was in about 1945, and the pens in question were drilled in about 1930-31.

 

6) X seals were another way of identifying pens that were not guaranteed for life. Generally, Making a pen and making gold seals the pen goes through various production stages and different departments at the factory handled different steps. The pens were not all made by one guy. At the risk of oversimplifying this, In the process of assembly line production of the Deco Band pens for example one area prepared the plastic elements of the caps and barrels for receiving their furniture and another area handled the stage of applying the furniture. So in the production stream at the time the decision was made to close out the Deco Band or the Equipoised for example, there were hundreds of pens in various stages of production and some already had good gold seals applied - they got drilled, and some were already cut with a hole in the cap to receive the gold seal, and those got X seals. Drilled or X seals in the era in question were closeouts at the end of the design run and sold to jobbers or large dealers as closeout pens both here and in Canada and across the pond.

 

Syd, do you have any evidence for Wahl selling nibs to other makers? I don't find it at all implausible, but if it is being asserted as a fact, I'd like to see some proof -- and as far as I know, none has been published to date.

 

I'd also like to know if you have any evidence for the drilling of Gold Seals as early as 1930-31. If you have hard proof, again, I'd love to see it. But from what I know, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to support closing out of old stock at the end, not the beginning, of the 1930s.

 

Your explanation of the X Seals makes sense -- but again, if you have proof, please let us all know! It is important to distinguish hard facts from plausible hypotheses.

 

best

 

David

[Wahlnut]

Thanks David,

Your point on X seals is well taken. In the interest of intellectual honesty, a first sentence on the x seals and the drilling process, I should have said something like "The current best explanation is". As supporting deductive reasoning, the concept of the company not wanting to be held to a lifetime guarantee and not wanting to maintain the exact parts necessary to honor the guarantee would have little use for a company wanting to save the $$ involved by disqualifying the drilled pens from claim if delayed for years. The company was in need of cash all through the 30's and leaving idle old pen stock sitting in inventory for years before recouping cost was not the Wahl or Eversharp way of doing business. Also, the drilled seal or X seals pens had warranted nibs of the style, shape and material used in the late 20's or early 30's and those nibs would (probably) not have been left laying in inventory unused or un-recycled for up to 9 years and conveniently available to apply to closeouts almost a decade later in some cases, if the process was left to the end of the 30's. So, while expertise, self-proclaimed or otherwise, should not be accepted as a substitute for "hard evidence", it fits the personality and structure and thinking (as I have come to understand it) of the company based on my focused research. Nonetheless, regardless of how sure I am about it, you are right that the way I wrote it sounded "matter of fact", which it is not.

 

As for Warranted nib sales, I have an invoice around here someplace that was obtained when I bought a small batch stamped Wahl Co. covers (envelopes) that to my surprise was still inside and shows a batch of nibs sold to another Company. And I have an article written for a journal of the day with an array of photos of the production facilities with a caption under the gold room photo that states the nibs were made for company use and contract sales. Pensbury Manor has moved from California to Arizona, and a lot is still in Bekins boxes. When I can dig it out I would be happy to post it.

 

Syd