Group Buy on Special Taps and Dies

[tonydacrow]

My E-mail to Westerntap on the 17th was never answered. I called today and was promised prices on the taps and dies I mentioned above within the next few days. I'll keep everyone informed...

[Rick Krantz]

I haven't mastered it by any means, but I think that perhaps it would be better to learn how to just turn the threads on a lathe. Triple threading is tough, and I can't imagine there is a viable, easier way out. Sounds good though.

 

Did the old time manufacturers turn threads by using taps and dies?

 

will they hold up under repeated use?

 

I would like to hear a preliminary price, I would be quite interested, even though I think that the lathe is where it should happen, in terms of threading.

 

It would be nice to have a 3/8, 7/16, 1/2, 9/16, and 5/8 set of taps and dies, all triple thread. Can you imagine the pens you could make if this works?

[cacao]

Although I do have a lathe with a cross slide, it is not capable of turning threads, so I have no choice but to use taps and dies. I have threaded a turned plastic barrel and ebonite section with a fine single lead thread with a tap and die. It worked very well, producing clean thhreads that have held up just fine.

[Steve]

Any info yet?

 

S

[tonydacrow]

Not yet. I'll call again today. I get the feeling that they're not all that interested in the small-fry, non-comercial customer. That kind of attitude tick's me off, but I'll try again...

[kirchh]

On this topic, I recently made a pen repair tool (described here), and I had to cut threads to match that of the back end of the barrel of a Vacumatic to accept a filler unit. I opted to make a custom tap for the purpose, shown here.

 

--Daniel

[kirchh]

Here's the above-mentioned tap taking care of business.

 

--Daniel

[tonydacrow]

Great going, Kirchh.

 

Unfortunately, it looks like I may have to follow in your footsteps. Western Tap apparently can't be bothered to give me a quote, even though I E-mailed once and spoke on the phone to these people twice. Must be nice to have so much business that you can treat potential customers so poorly...

[cacao]

Hello Daniel,

 

 

Thanks for the images. Since I see you tapping steel, I wonder what kind of steel you used to make the tap? Did you need to do any heat treating?

[kirchh]

Hello Daniel,

Thanks for the images. Since I see you tapping steel, I wonder what kind of steel you used to make the tap? Did you need to do any heat treating?

I am actually tapping 2024 aluminum in the picture, but the tap is made from W1 and will be heat treated in my one-brick forge. Everybody needs a one-brick forge!

[cacao]

Thanks for the information and photo. It's a good thing for the rest of us that you take pictures of everything you are doing! I like that one brick oven. I've got a bunch of fire brick, I'll have to make one. By the way, did you have to anneal the W1 before cutting the threads?

[kirchh]

Thanks for the information and photo. It's a good thing for the rest of us that you take pictures of everything you are doing! I like that one brick oven. I've got a bunch of fire brick, I'll have to make one. By the way, did you have to anneal the W1 before cutting the threads?

Make sure it's the light fire brick, not the heavy!

 

I didn't need to anneal the W1; it's not supplied hardened, so it can be machined using ordinary tools on the lathe and mill.

 

--Daniel

[tonydacrow]

After much delay, I finally got a quote from Western Tap and Die for the sizes previously mentioned in this thread. Here are some examples of their (rather outrageous) prices:

 

5/16 and ½ acme triple lead dies – 1 @ $245 each; 2 @ $174 each; 3-5 @ 129 each; 6 -11 @ $88 each.

 

5/16 and ½ acme triple lead taps – 1@ $305 each; 2@ $282 each; 3-5@ $261 each; 6-11@ $248 each.

 

½ NS unified triple lead taps – 1@ $170 each; 2@ $150; 3-5@ $130 each; 6-11@ 105 each.

 

½ NS unified triple lead dies – 1@ $124 each; 2@ $99 each; 3-5@ $75 each; 6-11@ $54 each.

 

So, not only do they have poor customer service, they charge exorbitant prices. <_< So much for that plan…

[kirchh]

After much delay, I finally got a quote from Western Tap and Die for the sizes previously mentioned in this thread. Here are some examples of their (rather outrageous) prices:

 

5/16 and ½ acme triple lead dies – 1 @ $245 each; 2 @ $174 each; 3-5 @ 129 each; 6 -11 @ $88 each.

 

5/16 and ½ acme triple lead taps – 1@ $305 each; 2@ $282 each; 3-5@ $261 each; 6-11@ $248 each.

 

½ NS unified triple lead taps – 1@ $170 each; 2@ $150; 3-5@ $130 each; 6-11@ 105 each.

 

½ NS unified triple lead dies – 1@ $124 each; 2@ $99 each; 3-5@ $75 each; 6-11@ $54 each.

 

So, not only do they have poor customer service, they charge exorbitant prices. <_< So much for that plan…

Can you explain why you consider these prices outrageous and exorbitant? Do they work out to an hourly labor rate, material cost, overhead, and profit that is far in excess of industry standards?

 

--Daniel

[tonydacrow]

Well, Daniel:

 

I don't know why you need an explanation but here goes. An automated machine will churn these out in about 30 secs each. Add a few mins for someone to place the stock in the chuck (assuming that's not automated) and you've come a long way in understanding my belief that these are exorbitant prices.

 

Sure they have to be heat treated after they're cut, but they go in with a batch of other tools so their cost is (or should be) spread among the many tools being heat treated. This is what these guys do. I would expect these prices from a machinist for a one-off; not from a dedicated maker who has all the equipment to make these efficiently.

 

Gone are the days where a machinist stands at a lathe and manually turns these things out one at a time. Add this to their dilatory response times and you soon realize these are the "go away son, you bother me" prices; not the "lets do business" prices. These guys apparently don't want to deal with small-fry. That's fine. I don't want to deal with them, either.

[kirchh]

Well, Daniel:

 

I don't know why you need an explanation but here goes.  An automated machine will churn these out in about 30 secs each.  Add a few mins for someone to place the stock in the chuck (assuming that's not automated) and you've come a long way in understanding my belief that these are exorbitant prices. 

 

Sure they have to be heat treated after they're cut, but they go in with a batch of other tools so their cost is (or should be) spread among the many tools being heat treated.  This is what these guys do.  I would expect these prices from a machinist for a one-off; not from a dedicated maker who has all the equipment to make these efficiently.

 

Gone are the days where a machinist stands at a lathe and manually turns these things out one at a time.  Add this to their dilatory response times and you soon realize these are the "go away son, you bother me" prices; not the "lets do business" prices.  These guys apparently don't want to deal with small-fry.  That's fine.  I don't want to deal with them, either. 

I don't *need* an explanation, but I would *like* one, because I don't understand the basis for your assertions, and I still don't.

 

They will make a single custom 1/2" triple-lead Unified die for $124. Buy six, and they'll make them for $324, which works out to $40/piece asuming fixed job overhead for the run (crude calculation). A quality off-the-shelf 1/2" single-lead Unified die, likely made by the tens of thousands, is about $20. Do you consider that price also "outrageous" and "exorbitant"?

 

--Daniel

[tonydacrow]

Looks like your ideas are different than mine, which is OK, but I don't understand why my position offends you so.

 

In any event, please feel free to buy as many as you need. I think the prices are high. I'll leave it to everyone else to make-up their own minds. No need to fight over this...

[Ruaidhri]

Tony,

 

I won't be buying (I still stick to the old-fashioned hand threading) but thanks for all the trouble you went to on this.

 

Regards,

Ruaidhrí

[tonydacrow]

I was happy to try, Ruaidhri. I'm sorry it didn't work-out.

[kirchh]

Looks like your ideas are different than mine, which is OK, but I don't understand why my position offends you so.

I think you mis-read my posts; I don't have a particular idea about the pricing, but I am interested in the basis for your assertions regarding same. I'm not offended in the least, nor do I perceive that we're "fighting".

 

I would be interested in hearing your analysis of the pricing that lead you to your conclusions (see my last post), but it is certainly your prerogative not to provide it.

 

--Daniel