What Color Is Sheaffer's White Dot?

[kirchh]

I should add that you also learned that the inset darker green disk in your Jade Radite flat top is actually a piece of Jade Radite, not a White Dot that has been discolored by ink.

 

--Daniel

[lazard]

bull's-eye or bull's eye (blz)

n.

1.

a. The small central circle on a target.

b. A shot that hits this circle.

 

(Do not you understand my poor English? or, Do not you want to understand the evidence?).

 

I´m sorry but Walter Sheaffer chose the target with white center circle and the next black ring as you can see in their catalog and not you target with blue o yellow center. I´m Sorry.

 

I also lament that in 1943 Sheaffer "remember" the target whith "Right to the Point" 30 years after and I also lament that much before, in 1924, also consider this cuestion.

 

I also lament that you have been seeing the logo Sheaffer during years without knowing that you saw. Does it hurt?. I´m sorry... but with a little humility is cured.

[kirchh]

  On 12/25/2012 at 12:14 AM, lazard said:

bull's-eye or bull's eye (blz)

n.

1.

a. The small central circle on a target.

b. A shot that hits this circle.

 

(Do not you understand my poor English? or, Do not you want to understand the evidence?).

 

I´m sorry but Walter Sheaffer chose the target with white center circle and the next black ring as you can see in their catalog and not you target with blue o yellow center. I´m Sorry.

 

I also lament that in 1943 Sheaffer "remember" the target whith "Right to the Point" 30 years after and I also lament that much before, in 1924, also consider this cuestion.

 

I also lament that you have been seeing the logo Sheaffer during years without knowing that you saw. Does it hurt?. I´m sorry... but with a little humility is cured.

You haven't addressed any of my points.

 

You said the center of a bullseye is traditionally white, and you expressed skepticism that archery targets' bullseyes were gold in 1924. I provided evidence that you were incorrect, and that I was correct. Do you now agree that the center of a bullseye is not traditionally white, but instead is gold, as I explained?

 

You said that the first White Dot was set into a black circle. I explained that this was incorrect, and that the first Radite pen with a White Dot was actually Jade, as the trademark specimen shows. Do you now agree that the White Dot did not first appear in a black Radite pen?

 

You said that your jade flat top had a White Dot that was discolored by green ink, but I explained that the inset circle is actually made of Jade Radite, and it was never white. Do you now agree that your pen's cap does not have a discolored White Dot?

 

I provided a picture of a bullseye from an advertising piece from before the White Dot was created. Do you agree that the center circle is not white?

 

It should be very easy to come to agreement on these points, because there is a lot of evidence for all of us to look at.

 

--Daniel

[lazard]

The first White Dot is on Sheaffer S BCHR -like mine you can see-. The origin of White Dot is white over black.The Sheaffer logo is white over black, The Sheaffer target is white over black and, afther that, adapts to the background of another color, but born white over black. The Radite is somewhat later.

[lazard]

If you design a logo , originally, with a white dot over green Walter sends you to the same place as the Davey´s people, heh, heh

[kirchh]

  On 12/25/2012 at 12:31 AM, lazard said:

The first White Dot is on Sheaffer S BCHR -like mine you can see-. The origin of White Dot is white over black.The Sheaffer logo is white over black, The Sheaffer target is white over black and, afther that, adapts to the background of another color, but born white over black. The Radite is somewhat later.

Why do you say the first White Dot is on BCHR models, and that the Radite is somewhat later? What evidence do you have for this claim?

 

What color is the outer circle on the specimen in the trademark filing?

 

I would also appreciate it if you would address each of my other points.

 

Thank you.

 

--Daniel

[lazard]

Not so; the color of Radite flat top that first had the White Dot was Jade... Your words.

 

First Radite color was Jade, First Radite color was Jade, First Radite color was Jade... !Think, man!; First Radite color was Jade because jet black was not considered as "color" -the black like absence of color- but before Jade there was BCHR White Doc and, certainly, Flat Top in Black Radite at the same time that Jade Green. Or perhaps did they stop making the jet black of Radite? You know that it was not like that and Jade and Black they were commercialized together.

 

The White Dot as logo was born, this way, suddenly, stowaway of the sky one day of September, 1924? or, was a few months before in study, presenting the design to the Council Advisers and modifying the productive chain -for insert it in barrel or cap- when Sheaffer fountain pen only existed in black color?

 

The White Dot born before Jade Radite when Sheaffer´s was thinking in black. You like it or you do not like it.

Edited December 25, 2012 by lazard

[lazard]

I present the rigor of the scientific method and some evidence. You jump from puddle to puddle and your affirmations leaving you in evidence.

[kirchh]

  On 12/25/2012 at 1:43 AM, lazard said:

Not so; the color of Radite flat top that first had the White Dot was Jade... Your words.

 

First Radite color was Jade, First Radite color was Jade, First Radite color was Jade... !Think, man!; First Radite color was Jade because jet black was not considered as "color" -the black like absence of color

Not so. Black was considered a color by penmakers, as their catalogs and price sheets clearly show.

 

  Quote

before Jade there was BCHR White Doc and, certainly, Flat Top in Black Radite at the same time that Jade Green. Or perhaps did they stop making the jet black of Radite? You know that it was not like that and Jade and Black they were commercialized together.

You now have made two related claims that you have not supported with any evidence:

 

1. "before Jade there was BCHR White Do[t]"

 

2. "certainly, Flat Top in Black Radite at the same time that Jade Green."

 

What is your evidence for these two claims?

 

  Quote

The White Dot as logo was born, this way, suddenly, stowaway of the sky one day of September, 1924? or, was a few months before in study, presenting the design to the Council Advisers and modifying the productive chain -for insert it in barrel or cap- when Sheaffer fountain pen only existed in black color?

 

The White Dot born before Jade Radite when Sheaffer´s was thinking in black. You like it or you do not like it.

What I (or you) "like" is irrelevant. What is relevant is evidence, facts, and reasoning. You now add a third claim; that the White Dot logo was created before Jade Radite (or, properly, Jadite) existed. What is your evidence for that claim?

 

  Quote

I present the rigor of the scientific method and some evidence. You jump from puddle to puddle and your affirmations leaving you in evidence.

Actually, you have provided no evidence whatsoever for most of your claims despite repeated requests, and several of your assertions have been conclusively refuted, whereas I have consistently stated the same points and I have provided evidence. Here is a summary:

 

- You claimed that evidence of the origin of the White Dot as representing a target's bullseye is that the traditional color of the bullseye in a target is white. You provided no evidence at all, and I presented evidence to the contrary. Therefore, you can no longer rely on this claim to support your reasoning about the origin of the White Dot. Correct?

 

- I presented evidence of an advertising piece from the teens showing a bullseye. What color was the bullseye?

 

- You claimed your Jade pen's cap has a White Dot that is discolored by green ink. I pointed out the physical evidence that this is not the case, as well as experiential testimony (which Roger Wooten supported). What is your position on this question now that you have been enlightened?

 

- What color is the specimen in Sheaffer's White Dot trademark filing?

 

- You claimed that BCHR Sheaffer pens bore the White Dot before Jadite pens did, but you have not provided any evidence at all for this claim. What is your evidence?

 

- You now claim that black Radite pens were introduced at the same time as Jadite pens. What is your evidence?

 

Your original claim was that Sheaffer's White Dot represented a target's bullseye because:

 

1. A circa 1913 Sheaffer catalog shows a bullseye with a light-colored center

 

2. The bullseye of a target is traditionally white

 

3. The outer ring in a target is black and the White Dot first appeared on a black pen.

 

Claim 1 is true, but Sheaffer drops the bullseye imagery and slogan for about ten years before the White Dot is created, and other trade images of the bullseye show it as dark. You have not disputed these facts.

 

Claim 2 is false. You have not disputed this.

 

Claim 3 you have provided no evidence for whatsoever. Have you?

 

In light of the above, it is more than fair to label your original assertion as "speculation".

 

I would very much appreciate it if you would directly address these points (and don't forget to re-examine the disk in the top of your Jade flat top's cap and let us know what you conclude). You have been quite evasive when it comes to providing evidence.

 

Thank you.

--Daniel

[Roger W.]

lazard;

 

Without being so much point to point as Daniel is you are wrong about white dot being BCHR first. The white dot was first used 24 September 1924 and radite was in use from 11 June 1924. The first comes from the trademark and the later from Sheaffer records provided to me by the late Sheaffer archivist Tom Franz. Lined BCHR was used simultaneously with jade and black radite so there is no reason to believe the white dot was used on BCHR before radite and it is not supported by the facts. To link target or especially bullseye to the white dot is ridiculous as the "Bullseye of Perfection" is a fairly obscure reference and we have found only a few pieces of ephemera that has this on it - it was far from a major campaign which the whole white dot concept clearly was. The floor of Sheaffer headquarters has white dots on green backgrounds - none of which are targets/bullseyes. Clearly Sheaffer headquarters would be decorated out in bullseyes if your concept had any merit.

 

Sheaffer advertised the white dot on jade radite (or jadite as the ad states) on 24 December 1924. The dot was "the mark of pen aristocracy". I think you are making too much of the dot being related to an obscure earlier ad campaign as there is no evidence to link the two what-so-ever and you have yet to provide such evidence.

 

Roger W.

[lovemy51]

  On 12/24/2012 at 11:47 PM, lazard said:

  On 12/24/2012 at 8:52 PM, lovemy51 said:

hello, Lazzard.

 

i dig the bull's eye theory you presented. it sounds reasonable. but, in the Ad picture you show it states in spanish (second party offering an explanation) that the bull's eye (spanish: "blanco" for bull's eye, which means "white") is "maybe" the original idea "that later became it's logo the 'white dot'". it doesn't state it categorically. it does sound like speculation -i think this was pointed out by Daniel.

 

In effect, Walter A. Sheaffer did not say it to me. But, about your "51", George S. Parker either did not say to me that he was referring to the kingdom of the fountain-pens or to the country of the fountain-pens when, in relation with "51", it named them " The jewels of Pendom ". He did not say it to me but was referring to the " jewel of the kingdom of the fountain-pens ", though he yes said to me that he liked it the picnics in family.

¿que qué?... ¡saludos!

[lazard]

¿que qué?... ¡saludos! To Lovemy51.

 

I mean that's not all is evidence; taking advantage of your name based on Parker I remembered, for example, both Sheaffer, and Parker in Vacs used the word "Pendom" - "The Jewel of Pendom" referred to Vacumatic -and there is no evidence of Pendom word, "Pendom" does not exist, but you can infer that relates the country or the kingdom of fountain pens but never have the evidence.

Edited December 25, 2012 by lazard

[Aysedasi]

It really is time to leave it lazard - I fear you're the puddle-jumper, not Daniel........

Edited December 25, 2012 by Aysedasi

[JonSzanto]

While it is quite possible that this, ahem, debate about the bulls-eye may go one for a page or seven more, I don't seriously think the progenitor of the hypothesis will be changing his tune, or his modus operandi, at any point. Therefore, I might as well post this now...

 

http://www.theagedp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/businessman-banging-his-head-against-the-wall-ispc026073.jpg

[lazard]

  On 12/25/2012 at 3:46 AM, Roger W. said:

lazard;

 

Without being so much point to point as Daniel is you are wrong about white dot being BCHR first. The white dot was first used 24 September 1924 and radite was in use from 11 June 1924. The first comes from the trademark and the later from Sheaffer records provided to me by the late Sheaffer archivist Tom Franz. Lined BCHR was used simultaneously with jade and black radite so there is no reason to believe the white dot was used on BCHR before radite and it is not supported by the facts. To link target or especially bullseye to the white dot is ridiculous as the "Bullseye of Perfection" is a fairly obscure reference and we have found only a few pieces of ephemera that has this on it - it was far from a major campaign which the whole white dot concept clearly was. The floor of Sheaffer headquarters has white dots on green backgrounds - none of which are targets/bullseyes. Clearly Sheaffer headquarters would be decorated out in bullseyes if your concept had any merit.

 

Sheaffer advertised the white dot on jade radite (or jadite as the ad states) on 24 December 1924. The dot was "the mark of pen aristocracy". I think you are making too much of the dot being related to an obscure earlier ad campaign as there is no evidence to link the two what-so-ever and you have yet to provide such evidence.

 

Roger W.

Hola Roger,

 

We are agree in that the White Dot is in use from September, 1924 as you can see at foot of the photography of the BCHR that I attached in a previous comment. Totally in agreement.

 

We are agree that Jadite-Radite is in use from summer 1924 and, preciselly is for this what in September, 1924, 2 ó 3 month after, when the White Dot joins Sheaffer´S was, at least, BCHR more Jade Radite more Black Radite. It is for this that to affirm that the first that took it was the Jade Green is a mere speculation. It could be the Jade, could be the Jet Black or could be the BCHR.

 

On another hand, I know the ad of December 1924 -I think day 27 on Saturday, as usual, in Saturday Evening Post and not the day 24 as you say but this lacks importance-.

 

We dont agree in "Clearly Sheaffer headquarters would be decorated out in bullseye" because, certainly, is decorated with the center of a target due summarized, it yes, since it corresponds to a logo commercial.

 

No, no the symbol of the target and the bull's eye is not a simple pieces of ephemera . On the contrary, it is the FIRST graphical image that accompanied Sheaffer´S and that, certainly, modernized and summarized has come to our days.

 

I summarize. Nobody, I repeat, anybody, designs a logo without a graphical idea or concept and, except that anybody shows evidences that annul it, basing on the scientific method I can affirm, calmly, that the idea origin of White Dot is the graphical representation of his beginning and nothing more graphical than his first catalogue, absolutely normally for a businessman self-made man who always will have his beginning present.

 

There is not an isolated white dot, there is not a white point inserted in a square, there is not a white point inserted into a rhombus. It is, even today, a white dot inserted and concentric with another circle darker ... as the center of a target or, if you prefer, as the front page of Sheaffer´s first catalog.

 

My end about this topic: Can someone believe that the White Dot is senseless or it does not represent an idea or concept?. Do not you see a target in the image? Sure?

 

Obviously I am speaking about the origin of the logo. Not from his later adjustments to the spaces, modes or models.

Edited December 25, 2012 by lazard

[Roger W.]

  On 12/25/2012 at 8:00 AM, JonSzanto said:

While it is quite possible that this, ahem, debate about the bulls-eye may go one for a page or seven more, I don't seriously think the progenitor of the hypothesis will be changing his tune, or his modus operandi, at any point. Therefore, I might as well post this now...

 

http://www.theagedp.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/businessman-banging-his-head-against-the-wall-ispc026073.jpg

 

Jon;

 

I agree. lazard lacks any substantive proof but, yet he goes on and on. I'm not convinced that the white dot is related to a target/bullseye and don't see any reason anyone else should be either.

So until lazard offers more tangible proof I've nothing further to add.

 

 

Roger W.

[Aysedasi]

  On 12/25/2012 at 8:42 AM, lazard said:

 

 

 

My end about this topic: Can someone believe that the White Dot is senseless or it does not represent an idea or concept?. Do not you see a target in the image? Sure?

 

 

We can all believe the concept you propose - if we wish to. But I could also believe it's based on my front doorbell push, but I doubt that Sheaffer designed the white dot based on that image.

 

It's still your supposition. Which I think is where we all came in........

Edited December 25, 2012 by Aysedasi

[jar]

If the White Dot was related to a target, then it would likely have maintained a "target" resemblance when it moved from the top of the pen to all the other various locations Sheaffer used over the years; but it didn't. It is simply a White Dot.

[lazard]

There is not an isolated white dot in his origin and genesis, there is not a white point inserted in a square, there is not a white point inserted into a rhombus. It is, even today, a white dot inserted and concentric with another circle darker ... as the center of a target or, if you prefer, as the front page of Sheaffer´s first catalog.

 

Is possible that you see one but I, even today, see two circles.

 

 

 

Footnote: Please, do not force the arguments. Obviously we are speaking about the origin of the logo. Not from his later adjustments to the spaces, modes or models.

Edited December 25, 2012 by lazard

[kirchh]

  On 12/25/2012 at 8:42 AM, lazard said:

We are agree in that the White Dot is in use from September, 1924 as you can see at foot of the photography of the BCHR that I attached in a previous comment. Totally in agreement.

 

We are agree that Jadite-Radite is in use from summer 1924 and, preciselly is for this what in September, 1924, 2 [or] 3 month after, when the White Dot joins Sheaffer´S was, at least, BCHR more Jade Radite more Black Radite. It is for this that to affirm that the first that took it was the Jade Green is a mere speculation. It could be the Jade, could be the Jet Black or could be the BCHR.

Thank you for retracting these two earlier claims you made:

 

  Quote

the first White Dot was in a flat top black

and

 

  Quote

The first White Dot is on Sheaffer S BCHR

So, now we are getting somewhere. Let's try to make more progress on this point:

 

- Do you agree that the specimen in the trademark filing is Jade, not black?

 

- Do you agree that the first White Dot shown in an advertisement is in Jade, not black?

 

- Do you agree that advertisements showing BCHR Lifetime pens after September, 1924 do not show those pens having White Dots?

 

- Do you agree that the earliest advertisements showing Jade pens and White Dots in Jade do not indicate that black Radite pens were available yet?

 

It would be great if we could come to agreement on these points, which are not matters of opinion. They can all be proven with objective evidence that is readily available.

 

  Quote

No, no the symbol of the target and the bull's eye is not a simple pieces of ephemera . On the contrary, it is the FIRST graphical image that accompanied Sheaffer´S and that, certainly, modernized and summarized has come to our days.

Several points:

 

- The bullseye imagery and slogan was used very briefly, then abandoned and never resurrected. The White Dot appeared ten years later.

- The accompanying arrow logo appeared on only a few thousand of the very earliest pens, then was abandoned and was never resurrected

- The bullseye imagery and slogan and the arrow logo were company-wide and thus applied to the entire line of pens. The White Dot, on the other hand, only indicated a Lifetime guarantee on a few models

- In a colored advertisement, the center of the target is dark, and the next ring is red. Red is the traditional color for an archery target's innermost ring. Yes, even in 1924. And 1856. Not black. Or green.

 

Do you agree with these four points? They are not opnions; they are facts. So we should be able to agree on them.

 

  Quote

I summarize. Nobody, I repeat, anybody, designs a logo without a graphical idea or concept and, except that anybody shows evidences that annul it, basing on the scientific method I can affirm, calmly, that the idea origin of White Dot is the graphical representation of his beginning and nothing more graphical than his first catalogue, absolutely normally for a businessman self-made man who always will have his beginning present.

You seem confused about the scientific method. As the Oxford English Dictionary says, the scientific method is "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses." We are not in the domain of the natural sciences, nor have you conducted any measurement nor experimentation. Furthermore, you have formulated a hyopthesis, but you have not tested nor modified it, and, in fact, you have repeatedly ignored contrary evidence provided to you, which is anti-scientific and reveals bias, which is the enemy of scientific investigation. Thus, it is accurate -- generous, really -- to characterize your assertion as "speculation". I surely hope you do not believe that scientists make unqualified claims such as yours based on the extremely tenuous evidence you have provided, nor do they ignore large quantities of contradictory evidence presented to them, as you have.

 

  Quote

There is not an isolated white dot, there is not a white point inserted in a square, there is not a white point inserted into a rhombus. It is, even today, a white dot inserted and concentric with another circle darker ... as the center of a target or, if you prefer, as the front page of Sheaffer´s first catalog.

 

My end about this topic: Can someone believe that the White Dot is senseless or it does not represent an idea or concept?. Do not you see a target in the image? Sure?

You rely heavily on Sheaffer's intention in the design as well as the precedent of the target/bullseye imagery and slogan used briefly ten years earlier. Yet, you ignore the fact that Sheaffer themselves make no reference whatsoever to the White Dot logo representing a target in their first advertisement showing it, and, importantly, their description mentions only the dot, not the outer ring. If both the center disk and outer ring are essential because only together would they form a target, why wouldn't Sheaffer call the logo the "Target" or "Bull's Eye"? If Sheaffer wanted customers to see the logo as a bullseye, why instead would they say the pen was "green inlaid with a white dot"? Why would Sheaffer use such slogans as "the mark of pen aristocracy" with no mention of a target or bullseye? Why would they say of the new pen, "Spot it by the dot in its field of jade" -- relegating the outer green ring to the role of mere background? Why would they call it, "the pen with the white dot"? If the target imagery was so important, why would Sheaffer use only the White Dot on some pens during the very first year without even including the surrounding ring?

 

http://www.sheafferflattops.com/images/4earlypens2.jpg

(Photo courtesy Roger Wooten)

 

Why would Sheaffer describe the logo in so many ways, yet make no mention whatsoever of the logo representing a bullseye? Why would they discard the outer ring entirely on some of the very first pens to carry the White Dot if it was supposed to represent a target?

 

If Sheaffer intended the logo to represent a bullseye, and therefore wanted consumers to identify it as a bullseye, why would they never even mention it?

 

Three more follow-ups to issues you have repeatedly evaded:

 

- You claimed that the White Dot reflects the fact that the traditional color for a bullseye is white. I proved that it was not white, but rather was gold. Do you agree and retract your earlier claim?

 

- What color is the bullseye in the color advertisement I showed you?

 

http://home.comcast.net/~kirchh/Misc/Black_Bullseye_Detail.jpg

 

- You claimed that the inset disk on your jade pen was originally white but was discolored by green ink. I explained that it was never white, but rather was a disk of jade Radite. Do you agree?

 

I look forward to your responses to the specific points I have made. I hope you won't continue to evade these simple questions.

 

--Daniel

Edited December 25, 2012 by kirchh