Titanium Vs Gold Vs Steel

[Bo Bo Olson]

Didn't foot note. :embarrassed_smile:

Lots of info on Kaweco and many other pens from Kaweco (Thomas) from our hours of talking at local flea market.

The part on the early dip pens I got some where else. It appears Morton built on previous industrial experience, but the potato to keep the iridium from burning was theirs.

 

I think there were 8? nib producers in Heidelberg. Thomas knows exactly how many, and when they were and in what city section and told me...but when one hears names for the first time, it's hard to remember them all. I'm a tad slow when diving off the deep end.

You have to have a basis to build knowledge.

It took me for ever to get the word, 'Mutschler' a pen company into my head.

 

If you go into advanced search, Reform and 'Kaweco' as author, there is a real fine article on Reform pens, who made pens for """"" Reform delivered complete writing systems and parts to several other well known firms like Geha, Herlitz, Rotring, AT Cross, Elysee, Dunnhill, Dupont, Cartier, Caran d Ache or Christian Dior. They bought the "DEGUSSA"- and the "RUPP" nib factory and produced excellent nibs. Alas, after all nearly nobody knew "Reform".""""""

 

Heidelberg and the area right around it was once Pen Capitol of the World.

 

It's always a rewarding pleasure talking with Thomas. He is a Scholar of the pen, besides being a Gentleman.

 

 

 

The nibs had been made from V2A steel and the problem was, that the nib corroded in the area, where it was on touch with the hard rubber of the fp. The problem never had been solved , possibly it was the sulphur from the hard rubber combined with the iron- gallic- inks. In the very late time of the war they only had "trash" steels.

 

That explains the totally corroded back end of the (pen*) nib I have on my 'junk' Osmia...I've not braved how to make the dull thing look good seeing it's chased. That's why it's still in the 'junk' box.

I have a couple of other old corroded back end but not so bad or corroded under the nib from other pens I'd thought just caused by the ink.

 

It's nice to know it was more than just the IG or other ancient ink that caused the corrosion of steel nibs pre'War...

 

I'm not sure now, if I showed Thomas the vintage well made Reform War pen or told him of it. That was when he first told me of the 'crappy' nibs at the end of the war.

 

 

* Spending too much time in 1881 writing a western, calling a nib it's 'true' name, a pen.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Bo Bo Olson

[Mickey]

I think the predominant reason is economic, not on the manufacturing side but because of service under warranty costs. Flexible nibs are more likely to be damaged and more difficult to maintain than nails. The cost of maintaining high maintenance pens until they outlive their warranties is likely prohibitive. Even service done after warranty is probably a money loser for manufacturers, performed mostly to maintain a company's reputation. Let's be real, most of today's pen users are too ham-fisted to handle a flexible nib safely.

 

That said, flex is as much about nib geometry as material science (tempering, annealing, etc.) Relatively broad shouldered, short tined nibs are less flexible, all other things equal. Curvature also affect flex; tighter curves usually mean less flex. And so on.

 

Dip pen manufacturers still produce very flexible products at reasonable prices, typically under 1 dollar per nib, but the nibs are understood by their purchasers to be consumables, and the purchasers are also people who have taken the time (or are taking the time) to learn how not to destroy their pens before the IG eats through the steel. Maybe if FP users were as dedicated to safe writing habits as dippers seem to be, pen manufacturers might consider making old time flexies again.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Mickey

[haldane3]

I prefer 18k to steel. Actually haven't written with a 14k, so not sure how much different it would feel. But the 18k nibs have a nice, soft feel. Steel writes as smoothly, but placing the nib to paper has a different feel than any steel I've written with, including a binderized Bexley (Bock), waterman, lamy, and kaweco steel nibs.

 

Do people find that Ti has the same soft "gold" feel or more like steel? I am interested to see since I haven't run into a Ti...

 

Dan

[Bo Bo Olson]

You need to try vintage German steel nibs, and not modern nails like the Kaweco, Lamy nibs.

I have a wonderful Joy to Write With (50's-65)P-120 nib that is regular flex, with a touch of that vintage spring...not that it is a springy nib like '90's Pelikan Celebry which is also very nice to write with. I was very suprised by the spring of that nib.

The vintage 200 has a good rep. Even the modern 200 has a good rep.

I have many steel nibs in semi-flex, maxi-semi-flex/'flexi' and some in easy-full flex/super-flex.

My only modern steel nib post '97 is the Cross Townsend a seldom used nail.

 

 

Bock makes what the pen company wants...is a Bexley a nail? I have in Bock nibs in both vintage steel and gold good regular flex and semi-flex and 'flexi' nibs.

I've no idea what a modern Waterman nib is in flex.

Putting down a Bock nib is putting down the company who ordered nails. Bock can make better nibs with more feel, but no pen company wants that.

 

As a 'noobie' I didn't know Bock nibs, thinking them substandard to the 'big' named nibs.

That is not true, many companies now and then use Bock nibs. You should have seen how my eyes went the first time I ran into a Bock semi-flex nib. Comparing what a company wants and what Bock can make is like comparing Apples to Apricots.

 

Modern 18 K might = soft...but vintage regular flex 14 K = a tad of spring; more than modern....for Pelikan modern started in 1998.

 

I have a 18 K nail Lamy Persona, that I had made into a CI. So just because it's 18 K don't mean it's automatically going to be a 'soft' nib.

 

I do suggest German vintage semi-flex 14 C or K semi-flex. Which IMO are not flexi nibs as many with out enough think, because of the term...leaving out the 'semi' but more like 'Springy' ++. You really can't do lots of 'flex tricks' with it.

 

Actually the P-120 has a great regular flex nib for gold plated steel, as good as my 14 K M400 '90's. Both have a bit more 'spring' than modern.

 

 

18 K and 14 K are different alloy than the '50's 18 C and 14 C, from what I read, having only 14 C nibs no 18 C. The 18 C alloy is 'more' flexible than a 18K.

 

I do have a number of 14 K semi-flex nibs, in that they have more spring in the alloy than the 18 K nibs. I expect my regular flex 14 K vintage nibs to have more flex therefore easy to write with than a modern soft 18 K nib.

Compared to the modern post '97 nib in 14 K,which is half a flex stiffer.

 

Personally I've lost nothing in 18 K nibs, even though I got a couple.

 

I would buy a vintage 18 C nib though. But I want a bit of spring or a bit of flex in my nibs. I don't want a soft mushy nib.

 

My MB Woolf a modern pen has the normal 'springy' MB 18 K modern nib. It is not 'soft'. It is springy.

 

What is the difference between springy and semi-flex?

 

Springy nibs bend up and down with out a lot of tine spread. Semi-flex both bends up and down and has tine spread of 3 X a light down stroke at half the pressure needed to mash a regular flex nib into the 3 X the width of a light down stroke. It bends up and down easier than a 'springy' nib also, but you also get tine spread.

 

My 14 C semi-flex MB 234 1/2 Deluxe (52-55) is IMO the way I like a nib, much better. The latter my #1 pen and nib (off the top of my head my top three nibs are 14 C), my modern Woolf 18 K springy nib is at #18.

 

Many of my cheaper Vintage pens, and I chase only vintage, brand name or even no name have nibs that I like better, be that gold or steel in they are semi-flex or 'flexi'. Nibs that feel real nice to write with.

 

 

I definably want a '50s-65 MB 18 C nib. Those nibs have a high reputation.

 

My advice is sell your 18 K soft gold nib and get a '50's-65 MB 18 C, and have some fun.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Bo Bo Olson

[Kaweco]

Gold? 18K, 14K? Steel? It`s a feeling. Not in the hand, it`s in the brain. You do actually not write on gold, you write on the tip. And there are really quality differences in the tipping material. Normally for gold nibs better tipping material is used. Notwithstanding more expensive materials in the production are used, the profit of gold nibs is much higher for the producer and especially for the vendors. The production process is similar. Some fountainpen producers make a big show around their in- house produced nibs, it looks like they fondle jewelry and need ten times as much employees. Do you want to see a machine makink tiny imprints in little nibs: look here. There is a lot of technical science, experience and handcraft in a steel nib too. Surely, Bock will be able to produce each nib in each dimension and each flexibility. But the market wants: M.

Kind Regards

Thomas

http://i844.photobucket.com/albums/ab1/Thomasnr/FlPresse.jpg

Edited September 12, 2012 by Kaweco

[Bo Bo Olson]

Thomas it's smaller than I though from what you said. I expected to need a fork lift to move it.

[kestrel]

I own one pen with a titanium nib, the FPN LE Modello T. While I don't use the pen for flex writing I do enjoy the spring in the nib. It is very smooth, 6.5 out of ten on the wetness scale, and fun to write with. The nib responds to my touch and has a character all its own. It reminds me somewhat of the semiflex nibs in some of my vintage Conklins and Watermans. It is not exactly smoother than other nibs but I find it much more comfortable to use than any of nail nibs I have used. Modello T and Visconti Blue is a match made in heaven for this user.

My suggestion to the OP would be find someplace that sells a pen with a titanium nib and give it a test drive. I am not a big fan of most modern pens but this Modello T is one splendid pen.

 

Many thanks to the assorted experts above who have done a lot to reduce my ignorance of metallurgy and nib production history. Threads like this are what make FPN both fascinating and addictive.

[raging.dragon]

Gold? 18K, 14K? Steel? It`s a feeling. Not in the hand, it`s in the brain. You do actually not write on gold, you write on the tip. And there are really quality differences in the tipping material. Normally for gold nibs better tipping material is used. Notwithstanding more expensive materials in the production are used, the profit of gold nibs is much higher for the producer and especially for the vendors. The production process is similar. Some fountainpen producers make a big show around their in- house produced nibs, it looks like they fondle jewelry and need ten times as much employees. Do you want to see a machine makink tiny imprints in little nibs: look here. There is a lot of technical science, experience and handcraft in a steel nib too. Surely, Bock will be able to produce each nib in each dimension and each flexibility. But the market wants: M.

Kind Regards

Thomas

 

I think the differences people feel between gold, steel, palladium, titanium, etc. nibs have to do with how the metals respond to changes in writing pressure. How much does the metal deform when pressed, and how quickly does it rebound when the pressure is released - even a nail of a nib will deform a tiny (perhaps imperceptible) bit. This will depend on the nib's shape and thickness at least as much as on the inherent material properties.

[haldane3]

You need to try vintage German steel nibs, and not modern nails like the Kaweco, Lamy nibs.

I have a wonderful Joy to Write With (50's-65)P-120 nib that is regular flex, with a touch of that vintage spring...not that it is a springy nib like '90's Pelikan Celebry which is also very nice to write with. I was very suprised by the spring of that nib.

The vintage 200 has a good rep. Even the modern 200 has a good rep.

I have many steel nibs in semi-flex, maxi-semi-flex/'flexi' and some in easy-full flex/super-flex.

My only modern steel nib post '97 is the Cross Townsend a seldom used nail.

 

 

Bock makes what the pen company wants...is a Bexley a nail? I have in Bock nibs in both vintage steel and gold good regular flex and semi-flex and 'flexi' nibs.

I've no idea what a modern Waterman nib is in flex.

Putting down a Bock nib is putting down the company who ordered nails. Bock can make better nibs with more feel, but no pen company wants that.

 

As a 'noobie' I didn't know Bock nibs, thinking them substandard to the 'big' named nibs.

That is not true, many companies now and then use Bock nibs. You should have seen how my eyes went the first time I ran into a Bock semi-flex nib. Comparing what a company wants and what Bock can make is like comparing Apples to Apricots.

 

Modern 18 K might = soft...but vintage regular flex 14 K = a tad of spring; more than modern....for Pelikan modern started in 1998.

 

I have a 18 K nail Lamy Persona, that I had made into a CI. So just because it's 18 K don't mean it's automatically going to be a 'soft' nib.

 

I do suggest German vintage semi-flex 14 C or K semi-flex. Which IMO are not flexi nibs as many with out enough think, because of the term...leaving out the 'semi' but more like 'Springy' ++. You really can't do lots of 'flex tricks' with it.

 

Actually the P-120 has a great regular flex nib for gold plated steel, as good as my 14 K M400 '90's. Both have a bit more 'spring' than modern.

 

 

18 K and 14 K are different alloy than the '50's 18 C and 14 C, from what I read, having only 14 C nibs no 18 C. The 18 C alloy is 'more' flexible than a 18K.

 

I do have a number of 14 K semi-flex nibs, in that they have more spring in the alloy than the 18 K nibs. I expect my regular flex 14 K vintage nibs to have more flex therefore easy to write with than a modern soft 18 K nib.

Compared to the modern post '97 nib in 14 K,which is half a flex stiffer.

 

Personally I've lost nothing in 18 K nibs, even though I got a couple.

 

I would buy a vintage 18 C nib though. But I want a bit of spring or a bit of flex in my nibs. I don't want a soft mushy nib.

 

My MB Woolf a modern pen has the normal 'springy' MB 18 K modern nib. It is not 'soft'. It is springy.

 

What is the difference between springy and semi-flex?

 

Springy nibs bend up and down with out a lot of tine spread. Semi-flex both bends up and down and has tine spread of 3 X a light down stroke at half the pressure needed to mash a regular flex nib into the 3 X the width of a light down stroke. It bends up and down easier than a 'springy' nib also, but you also get tine spread.

 

My 14 C semi-flex MB 234 1/2 Deluxe (52-55) is IMO the way I like a nib, much better. The latter my #1 pen and nib (off the top of my head my top three nibs are 14 C), my modern Woolf 18 K springy nib is at #18.

 

Many of my cheaper Vintage pens, and I chase only vintage, brand name or even no name have nibs that I like better, be that gold or steel in they are semi-flex or 'flexi'. Nibs that feel real nice to write with.

 

 

I definably want a '50s-65 MB 18 C nib. Those nibs have a high reputation.

 

My advice is sell your 18 K soft gold nib and get a '50's-65 MB 18 C, and have some fun.

 

Well, I wouldn't say I think the bock nib on my bexley wasn't a great nib. In fact, it wrote the best of any pen I've owned, gold or steel nibbed. It just didn't have a certain feel I was looking for that both my OMAS 360 18k and Carene 18k have.

 

I am largely indifferent to flex. It might be fun, but it's not been something that has crossed my mind in pen purchases.

 

I did, however, just grab an old waterman thoroughbred with a 14k nib that was reported to have some flex. Will give that a shot and see!

 

Dan

[haldane3]

Gold? 18K, 14K? Steel? It`s a feeling. Not in the hand, it`s in the brain. You do actually not write on gold, you write on the tip. And there are really quality differences in the tipping material. Normally for gold nibs better tipping material is used. Notwithstanding more expensive materials in the production are used, the profit of gold nibs is much higher for the producer and especially for the vendors. The production process is similar. Some fountainpen producers make a big show around their in- house produced nibs, it looks like they fondle jewelry and need ten times as much employees. Do you want to see a machine makink tiny imprints in little nibs: look here. There is a lot of technical science, experience and handcraft in a steel nib too. Surely, Bock will be able to produce each nib in each dimension and each flexibility. But the market wants: M.

Kind Regards

Thomas

 

I think the differences people feel between gold, steel, palladium, titanium, etc. nibs have to do with how the metals respond to changes in writing pressure. How much does the metal deform when pressed, and how quickly does it rebound when the pressure is released - even a nail of a nib will deform a tiny (perhaps imperceptible) bit. This will depend on the nib's shape and thickness at least as much as on the inherent material properties.

 

Agreed. That makes the most sense. The on going comparative discussion between the variety of alloys is not as clear cut as I thought. The performance for any can be perfect and smooth which is directly related to the tipping material, but there is something different to putting pressure on a gold nib vs a steel. There is a difference, of that I can assure you. Is it worth the price? That I cannot!

 

Back to my OP, do people think that Ti has that softness?

[Yoda4561]

To add a bit of info on titanium:

 

It is about as strong as steel, but has only half the density, making it rather effective as a structural material, especially in tensile applications where many other light alloys fail.

 

As mentioned, titanium is quite corrosion resistant. The main reason is, ironically, that it oxidises extremely quickly and forms a thin (a few monolayers) layer of highly resistant TiO2 on its surface when exposed to air. TiO2 is highly inert and will protect the metal below from most chemical interactions.

Interestingly, this property has been applied by a number of jewellers, to create coloured areas on Ti surfaces by either laser irradiation or by anodising, causing coloration by thin film interference.... Its chemical resistance has also made it a popular jewellers material, since it does usually not cause kin discolouration and does not get attacked by the chlorine in swimming pools, etc. The material is also highly biocompatible.

 

While Titanium is rare(ish), another reason for its cost is the difficulty in refining and processing it. The material is incredibly ductile, making cutting and machining operations difficult. The cost is further added to by the fact that the aerospace industry snaps up most of the world's production, and most of the rest goes to the medical industry... I'm not seeing the cost of Ti develop like the cost of Al anytime soon...

 

I think the main reason why the stuff is interesting as a FP material is the high tensile strength and elastic modulus, meaning you can make it into a very durable flex nib. The corrosion resistance is of secondary importance, because the remaining parts of the feed and the rest of the pen would usually be damaged long before anything would happen to the Ti

 

 

Marc

 

The expense of Titanium mostly comes from the difficulty of extracting Titanium metal from the ore.

 

 

Yep, it's actually pretty common as far as earth metals go, there's more of it around than Tin, Lead, and Zinc, so there's more titanium on earth than there is potmetal.

[georges zaslavsky]

the conid titanium nib is pretty awesome and has flex so titanium when properly ajusted can be as good as gold nibs

[richardandtracy]

I have tried a titanium nib in a Delta that I reviewed ( https://www.fountainpennetwork.com/forum/index.php?/topic/200201-delta-titanio/ ) and didn't like it. The flex-nib wasn't flexy by any reasonable standard.

 

With regards to the view of the 321 stainless nib that had been eaten away, that is as a result of a well understood process. Stainless steel contains chromium which oxidises to form the protective oxide layer. In a crevice, when wet, the area becomes depleated in oxygen & the chromium dioxide breaks down, allowing the stainless steel to corrode at what most people would regard as an accelerated rate. The net result is that the base steel rusts away leaving a fragile chrome matrix which disintegrates as the piece is loaded in any way. The engineering term for this process is 'Crevice corrosion' and the way to avoid it is to do away with the crevice.. Difficult on a nib!

 

Regards,

 

Richard.

[Kaweco]

With regards to the view of the 321 stainless nib that had been eaten away, that is as a result of a well understood process. Stainless steel contains chromium which oxidises to form the protective oxide layer. In a crevice, when wet, the area becomes depleated in oxygen & the chromium dioxide breaks down, allowing the stainless steel to corrode at what most people would regard as an accelerated rate. The net result is that the base steel rusts away leaving a fragile chrome matrix which disintegrates as the piece is loaded in any way. The engineering term for this process is and the way to avoid it is to do away with the crevice.. Difficult on a nib!

Regards,

Richard.

Hello Richard

Are you sure that you do not refer to a chrome coated steel?In this case actually a thin layer of transparent Cr2O3 (not chromedioxid, this compound does not exist) generates. The oxide is resistant to partially conc. acides, not to chlorine or a mix of conc HCl and HNO3. The chrome under the layer always looks blanc and silvery. The layer is hard but it breakes after mechanical treatment. Water, oxygen and electrolytes are able to enter the "base steel" below the chrome layer and corrosion begins. We daily can see this products at chrome coated parts mounted at old cars which get more and more bubbles.

The chrome in the steel 321 / X6 Cr Ni Ti 18 - 8 is dissolved inside the high alloy steel. The steel looks not silvery, it is mor pale. The corrosion protective is an electrochemical process.

Is there any scientific reference of this "'Crevice corrosion'" of steel 321?

Kind Regards

Thomas

[maus930]

I have several pens with Titanium nibs -- mostly Stipula and they are my favorites -- Extremely smooth

[mikerph]

I`ve read here on fpn that parker 75 also comes with a TI(titanium) nib.

About the time the Parker T-1 came out (1969-70), they also produced some titanium nibs for the 75. The T-1 was problematic, due in part to the lack of technology needed to manufacture and work the titanium at that time. The main problem was the tendency of the iridium tip's failure to stay bonded to the nib;it would break off, rendering the pen useless. I"lost" a T-1 due to this, I got a coupon from Parker for $25.00 when I sent it back for repair--it went out of production after 1 year and no parts were available to fix. I'm not as sure about the Ti tipped 75, but I think it had the same problems. In any event they are both rare now.

[raging.dragon]

I`ve read here on fpn that parker 75 also comes with a TI(titanium) nib.

About the time the Parker T-1 came out (1969-70), they also produced some titanium nibs for the 75. The T-1 was problematic, due in part to the lack of technology needed to manufacture and work the titanium at that time. The main problem was the tendency of the iridium tip's failure to stay bonded to the nib;it would break off, rendering the pen useless. I"lost" a T-1 due to this, I got a coupon from Parker for $25.00 when I sent it back for repair--it went out of production after 1 year and no parts were available to fix. I'm not as sure about the Ti tipped 75, but I think it had the same problems. In any event they are both rare now.

 

Well you learn something everyday. I'd never heard of the Ti Parker 75 nibs.

[Mickey]

What about stainless maraging steel, as has been used in golf club faces? It would seem to have many of the virtues of titanium without some of the problems. Any of you science types know?

[raging.dragon]

What about stainless maraging steel, as has been used in golf club faces? It would seem to have many of the virtues of titanium without some of the problems. Any of you science types know?

 

I'm not familiar with maraging steel.

[Mickey]

What about stainless maraging steel, as has been used in golf club faces? It would seem to have many of the virtues of titanium without some of the problems. Any of you science types know?

 

I'm not familiar with maraging steel.

 

Here's a wiki article.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maraging_steel

 

I only know about it because a driver (golf club) I used to carry was faced with it. In that application, it was supposed to be superior (potentially) to the titanium alloys then in use. Still, a duffer on the end of a fancy stick is still a duffer.