Open Source Ink Project

[thorn]

 

 

Things are ramping up on a pretty big project I am heading, so my time is getting a bit limited right now. I'll try to test some various inks next week. I'll probably try Noodlers ink, Platinum or Sailor pigmented ink, and a Waterman ink. This covers the broad categories of niche, high dye loaded ink (Noodlers), pigmented ink (Platinum or Sailor), and old school traditional ink (Waterman)

 

That would be great for everyone to see what the values are. Then we can tweak a couple of recipes.

 

Where do you get the finer pigments at?

 

Thanks.

[Renfield]

I am happy to help.

 

However:

I have no experience in making Ink/Chemistry/coding Websites/ anything else that would be useful.

 

That aside, I would like to offer help if I can

[andru]

Awesome, Renfield, welcome!

 

One thing you could do that would be really helpful is, first register at Open-Ink to get editor access, then look at this links page (or find other sources) and start summarising what you find into the categories of the wiki (or make new categories if necessary).

 

This doesn't require specialised knowledge, and would be really useful for collating all the relevant info we can find into one place (namely into the wiki). It does require some editorial discretion to separate the wheat from the chaff as it were. And you need to rewrite, unless you obtain permission from the original authors to quote their posts.

 

On the home page of the wiki, you can also sign up to review inks that the chemists produce, but it's probably still early to expect much action there.

 

Let me know if you have any problems.

 

Andrew

 

[Edited for spelling.]

Edited September 9, 2012 by andru

[Renfield]

Awesome, Renfield, welcome!

 

One thing you could do that would be really helpful is, first register at Open-Ink to get editor access, then look at this links page (or find other sources) and start summarising what you find into the categories of the wiki (or make new categories if necessary).

 

This doesn't require specialised knowledge, and would be really useful for collating all the relevant info we can find into one place (namely into the wiki). It does require some editorial discretion to separate the wheat from the chaff as it were. And you need to rewrite, unless you obtain permission from the original authors to quote their posts.

 

On the home page of the wiki, you can also sign up to review inks that the chemists produce, but it's probably still early to expect much action there.

 

 

 

Ok, Registered to edit, and to test inks, so once set up, I will have a go and see what I can do.

 

Ren

[inkdesigner]

That would be great for everyone to see what the values are. Then we can tweak a couple of recipes.

 

Where do you get the finer pigments at?

 

Thanks.

 

Typically, we don't get our pigments at that small of a level, nor does anyone else supplying pigment dispersions into the inkjet industry. They are generally received as a presscake (think dried pigment compressed together). At my company, we chemically process the presscake and perform some chemistry and use some physical processing to reduce the pigment particle size to the nanometer (nm) level. Other places use a physical process to reduce pigment size such as ball milling.

 

In general, I would not expect the normal person making inks themselves at home to be able to produce stable and efficient pigmented inks, as obtaining pigment dispersions with a small enough particle size would be pretty expensive (i.e. our black dispersions can cost between $20 and $50 per kg, and usually we do not sell small volumes (minimum of 15 kg at a time)).

[andru]

Ok, Registered to edit, and to test inks, so once set up, I will have a go and see what I can do.Ren

Great!

 

Typically, we don't get our pigments at that small of a level, nor does anyone else supplying pigment dispersions into the inkjet industry. They are generally received as a presscake (think dried pigment compressed together). At my company, we chemically process the presscake and perform some chemistry and use some physical processing to reduce the pigment particle size to the nanometer (nm) level. Other places use a physical process to reduce pigment size such as ball milling.In general, I would not expect the normal person making inks themselves at home to be able to produce stable and efficient pigmented inks, as obtaining pigment dispersions with a small enough particle size would be pretty expensive (i.e. our black dispersions can cost between $20 and $50 per kg, and usually we do not sell small volumes (minimum of 15 kg at a time)).

How about atomization, such as from a spray nozzle, or ultrasonically? I suppose you might need non-aqueous solvents (depends on the pigment).

 

Do pigment formulators use centrifugal methods to obtain fractions based on particle size? It seems like you'd be able to syphon off the desired particle size in high relative purity, maybe through repeated application of that method?

[thorn]

 

 

Typically, we don't get our pigments at that small of a level, nor does anyone else supplying pigment dispersions into the inkjet industry. They are generally received as a presscake (think dried pigment compressed together). At my company, we chemically process the presscake and perform some chemistry and use some physical processing to reduce the pigment particle size to the nanometer (nm) level. Other places use a physical process to reduce pigment size such as ball milling.

 

In general, I would not expect the normal person making inks themselves at home to be able to produce stable and efficient pigmented inks, as obtaining pigment dispersions with a small enough particle size would be pretty expensive (i.e. our black dispersions can cost between $20 and $50 per kg, and usually we do not sell small volumes (minimum of 15 kg at a time)).

 

 

Our kids have a rock grinder that I could try.

 

Any other sources of "cheaper" pigments that might not be too large to clog FPs? Just curious to test some.

 

Thanks.

[inkdesigner]

How about atomization, such as from a spray nozzle, or ultrasonically? I suppose you might need non-aqueous solvents (depends on the pigment).

 

Do pigment formulators use centrifugal methods to obtain fractions based on particle size? It seems like you'd be able to syphon off the desired particle size in high relative purity, maybe through repeated application of that method?

 

All of those mentioned techniques can be used to reduce the size of pigments into the nanometer range. There is a lot of great information in the patent literature from DuPont, Cabot Corporation, etc. that covers those techniques. Unfortunately, those processes are even less likely to be of any use to a home chemist based on cost of equipment.

 

Ball milling is, by far, the lowest cost option for reducing pigment sizes and is used extensively by companies in Korea and China for making inkjet grade pigment dispersions.

[LucasT]

Are we talking like a drum ball mill? or impact ball mill?

[sirach]

Hey... we got pinned!!!

[inkdesigner]

Are we talking like a drum ball mill? or impact ball mill?

 

That's a good question and I really don't have a good answer for you. At my current position, I do applications development work for our customers who use our products. We use other processing methods over a ball mill.

 

I suspect that a drum ball mill is more widely used.

[inkdesigner]

Our kids have a rock grinder that I could try.

 

Any other sources of "cheaper" pigments that might not be too large to clog FPs? Just curious to test some.

 

Thanks.

 

Don't really know. The suppliers I am accustomed to dealing with are folks who manufacture their own pigments like Orient, Clariant, etc (you know, the really big pigment suppliers of the world). We don't really look for small, niche suppliers. In reality, they probably wouldn't have the ability to keep up with our supply demands.

 

As an FYI, I sampled some of my company's products to Nathan some time ago. The little feedback I got from him was very positive. The big stumbling block he had was in the biocide choice we made for our products. It has the potential to react adversely with some dyes, which could lead to instability issues and pen clogging.

Edited September 11, 2012 by inkdesigner

[thorn]

 

As an FYI, I sampled some of my company's products to Nathan some time ago. The little feedback I got from him was very positive. The big stumbling block he had was in the biocide choice we made for our products. It has the potential to react adversely with some dyes, which could lead to instability issues and pen clogging.

 

 

What kind of reactions? I assume it could cause it to precipitate - which would clog. What are the typical biocides used with dyes in solution, Dowicil, Rocima 586?

[inkdesigner]

 

As an FYI, I sampled some of my company's products to Nathan some time ago. The little feedback I got from him was very positive. The big stumbling block he had was in the biocide choice we made for our products. It has the potential to react adversely with some dyes, which could lead to instability issues and pen clogging.

 

 

What kind of reactions? I assume it could cause it to precipitate - which would clog. What are the typical biocides used with dyes in solution, Dowicil, Rocima 586?

 

There could possibly be a precipitation of the dye. I would guess there would be localized changes in pH that would effect the dye solubility, leading to it crashing out of solution.. It is unlikely that there would be an effect on a pigment dispersion, although it is possible.

 

A typical type of biocide used in both dye and pigment solutions for ink jet is the benzisothiazolinone, aka BIT. It is popular as it will function as both a fungicide and a microbiocide.

[LucasT]

The chemist part of me always looks at biocides and starts freaking out when I look at the chemical structure with words like "Poison! Death! Danger!", but I guess that is the point of them to cause poisonous, dangerous death to microbes.

[paultyler_82]

Just a thought and I may be way off base here, but I was reading another thread about metallic inks and metal nanoparticles were mentioned. I'm not certain what sort of costs would be involved but there are a few metals that are anti-microbial anyway (silver for instance) and I have to wonder what types of inks could be achieved by using this stuff?

[pharmacist]

Actually you might use copper or silver ions to preserve your inks....but watch out: these rather noble metals can stain your nib, if the nib is made from a less noble metal (so-called redox reactions).

 

You can use phenol, salicylic acid, eugenol (the main ingredient of clove essential oil), methylparaben, propylparaben, phenoxy-ethanol as preservatives for ink. When used in the right concentration, these preservatives are rather safe (you do not drink ink). Other preservatives like cetrimonium chloride or benzalkonium chloride also acts as a lubricant, making the ink flow better from the pen. Because most preservatives also works best at an optimal pH value, not all dyes are suitable with some kinds of preservatives. Modifying the pH value can synergistically enhance the potency of many preservatives and some dyes even do not need preservatives, as they are auto-preserving (many dyes are used for their antimicrobial actions).

 

You will need humectants, flow modifiers, mordants for some type of inks, anti-oxidants....

 

Ink making is both an art as well as science .

[andru]

It seems I'm the only person who's edited the wiki in over a month. I'm getting quite busy at this time. Some of you that expressed interest in helping might like to make a contribution. For example, you could sort out and summarise some of the info linked from our Links page. The wiki will only thrive with some nurturing.

 

Edit: The wiki is, again: http://www.open-ink.com If a moderator reads this, it would be nice if the link could be added to the subtitle of this topic, or to the top of the first post.

Edited October 12, 2012 by andru

[rhodialover]

Hey, have any of you thought about asking the chemists over at another forum. I know that the people at sciencemadness.org will be able to help in the formula department.

[fiberdrunk]

It seems I'm the only person who's edited the wiki in over a month. I'm getting quite busy at this time. Some of you that expressed interest in helping might like to make a contribution. For example, you could sort out and summarise some of the info linked from our Links page. The wiki will only thrive with some nurturing.

 

Edit: The wiki is, again: http://www.open-ink.com If a moderator reads this, it would be nice if the link could be added to the subtitle of this topic, or to the top of the first post.

 

I was wondering about that, too. I asked for access but never got it (or it hasn't worked). I've made a few new inks (mainly iron gall inks for dip pens) that I'd like to add:

 

Sir Isaac Newton Iron Gall Ink Recipe (scroll down the thread to my results and a handy chart.)

 

California Live Oak Iron Gall Ink

 

Sawtooth Oak Acorn Ink

Pomegranate Iron Gall Ink

Pokeberry Ink

Homemade Black Walnut Ink (both cooked-down and cold-process variations)

 

 

I also did a brief review today of the Badger Mixer, a gadget which could prove very useful to ink makers.

Edited December 4, 2012 by fiberdrunk