Open Source Ink Project

[inkdesigner]

Also, testing for light-fastness, some dyes fade away exposed to the sun...is there any data on light-fastness?

 

In the textile industry (I think), lightfastness is judged by the Blue Wool scale. The following description is from Wikipedia:

 

The Blue Wool Scale measures and calibrates the permanence of colouring dyes. Traditionally this test was developed for the textiles industry but it has now been adopted by the printing industry as measure of lightfastness of ink colourants. [1][2]

 

Normally two identical dye samples are created. One is placed in the dark as the control and the other is placed in the equivalent of sunlight for a 3 month period. A standard bluewool textile fading test card is also placed in the same light conditions as the sample under test. The amount of fading of the sample is then assessed by comparison to the original colour.

 

A rating between 0 and 8 is awarded by identifying which one of the eight strips on the bluewool standard card has faded to the same extent as the sample under test.[3][4]

 

Zero denotes extremely poor colour fastness whilst a rating of eight is deemed not to have altered from the original and thus credited as being lightfast and permanent.

 

The Ultraviolet (UV) radiation in light is responsible for ink fading. As the intensity of UV radiation differs from place to place, the ink fading also depends on place. It will be more in areas with more UV radiation and vice versa. This difficulty is overcome by the bluewool testing method. Absolute values of fading will depend on light intesity. Relative values of fading, comparing the sample with the standard blue test strip, will depend less on intensity. For example if a pigment is rated as "BW5" it can be expected to fade to the same degree as strip number 5 on a bluewool test card, for any specific light exposure. The method of comparison between the sample and a test strip enables accelerated testing to be carried out under intense artificial illumination.

 

It's a pretty general scale and can be used to get a rough estimate of how lightfast a dye is. Also great for comparing the lightfastness of one dye to another.

 

In general, any type of metalized dye (i.e. a dye that contains a metal as part of its structure) like Direct Blue 199 will have very good lightfast properties.

Edited August 30, 2012 by inkdesigner

[inkdesigner]

I've got a lot of questions, Lucas, but I think my biggest one is about your ratio of dye to water (2g dye to 30g water). That's a roughly 6% solution, and that is much more concentrated than the dye liquids I'm used to working with. The reason I bring it up is because I have solubility issue with my dyes if I go above 1% or so. I'll occasionally push it to 2% if I'm doing some high volume work and will be using the dye solutions within a week or so. But any stronger than that, and the solutions get very finicky. The dyes start to particulate and settle on the bottom of the bottle in a sedimentary layer, and dyes that are prone to gloppiness (yes, that's my official word for it) get really viscous and slimy. Simply reheating the bottles gently and giving them a good shake is enough to remix the dyes back into the solutions. But I wouldn't want to have that happen with finished ink products.

 

In my opinion, an ink with 6% dye would probably be overkill. The possibility of dye precipitation is fairly high and if that did happen in a pen, you could easily see clogged feeds. In the inkjet world, dye loadings are typically between 0.5% and 4% by weight. Of course, some of this also depends on the purity of the dye. I suspect that in Elaine's case, she was seeing increasing viscosity and stability issues at higher 1% loading because the dyes haven't been highly purified and have a lot of extra "stuff" (like salts, dedusting agents, etc) in them.

 

Lucas, is there any reason you selected ammonia as the alkaline reagent beyond ready availability? I was thinking we might also try a weak Potassium Carbonate solution (http://www.prochemicalanddye.com/home.php?cat=400) or Prochem's liquid fixatives (for example, http://www.prochemicalanddye.com/product.php?productid=16775&cat=249&page=1) which would react quickly without need for heat. I imagine there's chemistry involved in this sort of decision, though. So I definitely hope Brent could chime in with thoughts on which alkali might work.

 

Getting to the right pH in your ink is very important. There are some dye, like Direct Blue 199, that have better solubility and stability in water at higher pH values (8.0 and above). Others are better at lower pH values. How you get to that pH could play a role. Solutions of ammonia, potassium chloride, or sodium chloride are usually considered the most inert ways to adjust pH into the basic range (above 7.0). Depending on their concentration, it may not take much to move the pH.

Edited August 30, 2012 by inkdesigner

[DavidHandmade]

Uh - I didn't do so well in High School Chem class

- you're all talkin' over my head; I'll leave the "handmade" ink to you Chem-Folks.

Thanks for the "lessons", though and Best of Luck to all of you.

[LucasT]

David, don't run away yet we are talking theory right now, the what you need to know participate in making ink isn't nearly as involved. Can you weight things and mix things, you can use the recipes we come up with and tell us how you like them. Also, if you want to learn some chemistry I'm hoping to get some time to write out "layman" explanations of the concepts people could use to understand.

[thorn]

 

In the textile industry (I think), lightfastness is judged by the Blue Wool scale. The following description is from Wikipedia:

 

The Blue Wool Scale measures and calibrates the permanence of colouring dyes. Traditionally this test was developed for the textiles industry but it has now been adopted by the printing industry as measure of lightfastness of ink colourants. [1][2]

 

Normally two identical dye samples are created. One is placed in the dark as the control and the other is placed in the equivalent of sunlight for a 3 month period. A standard bluewool textile fading test card is also placed in the same light conditions as the sample under test. The amount of fading of the sample is then assessed by comparison to the original colour.

 

 

 

I wonder if there is a list of dyes and their lightfastness?

[thorn]

Anyone in the textile industry here have access to a viscometer (viscosity) and a way to measure surface tension?

 

 

 

In my opinion, an ink with 6% dye would probably be overkill. The possibility of dye precipitation is fairly high and if that did happen in a pen, you could

 

 

One dye I have has a saturation rate of 20g / l, if you keep it under that amount you should be safe? Unless it becomes too viscous. But I guess other factors like pH, pressure and temperature can effect it. So, the inks that have good shading are probably getting close to the saturation point, or maybe not?

[LucasT]

It depends on the solubility of that particular dye. Like my Siren blue. Great shading, but that particular dye can dissolve at about twice that rate. However, if I tried to dissolve that much of my yellow into water it would just sit on the bottom as an ugly blob.

 

Relative surface tension is easy to measure. It is proportional to droplet size, density, and attachment surface area of what you are dropping it from. So take a syringe, measure how much 200 drops weighs of a particular ink, assume density difference is negligible, measure the density using your syringe/picnometer, look up the calculations I don't remember right now....you now have a relative density. Or do this for water, glycerine, propylene glycol, and ethylene glycol, plot them on a slope, entering known surface tension values vs. weight/drops corrected for density and you now have a calibrated syringe-o-matic surface-tension-o-meter.

 

Ok, it may be easier to find someone who has surface-tension-o-meter. I can't for the life of me remember what they are called. You can also build one using a balance stick, needle/mesh basket, microweights (bits of wire?) etc. Check out this link for instructions.

 

Viscosity...we might be able to use a capillary viscometer but I think a Brookfield viscometer might be better/still work. I've used them, but don't have access to them now....

 

I think there are some standard droplet tests for viscosity too...

[fiberdrunk]

While I think about it.... Does anybody work with those nalgene spill-proof bottle (the little ones like in the picture) that we could get a bunch in bulk for cheap.... those would be great to send out some of this stuff.

 

 

 

The Container Store carries Nalgene bottles in a few different sizes.

 

Another place I buy bottles from (glass bottles) is Specialty Bottle.

Edited August 31, 2012 by fiberdrunk

[inkdesigner]

Anyone in the textile industry here have access to a viscometer (viscosity) and a way to measure surface tension?

 

I have access to a Brookfield viscometer using a #18 spindle and a surface tensiometer in my lab.

[Kelly G]

This is a fascinating discussion. While I am not a chemist nor in the ink or dye business, the idea of open source ink recipes is intriguing.

Three years ago I mixed up ten ounces of blue back ink using the Thistle ink powder that was available on e-bay for awhile. I am still using that ink with no ill effect. I have it in three pens now; Lamy 2000, Danitrio Densho, and Danitrio Fellowship.

It would be very cool if a similar powder could be formulated by some of you ink wizards. A powdered ink that can simply be mixed with distilled water has obvious advantages for those of us who use a fair amount of ink.

 

I plan to keep up with the discussion even though I have little to contribute in the technical aspects. I wish you all the best in your endeavors.

[thorn]

The Container Store carries Nalgene bottles in a few different sizes.

 

 

They have pretty good prices on nalgene bottles.

[thorn]

 

I have access to a Brookfield viscometer using a #18 spindle and a surface tensiometer in my lab.

 

I wonder if you could test some commercial fountain pen inks to see what the the viscosity and surface tensions are? At least that would give us a goal to strive for. I wonder if there is a "standard" for fountain pens inks? If I remember correctly, I saw these parameters listed in some of the patents on the web.

[fiberdrunk]

The Container Store carries Nalgene bottles in a few different sizes.

 

 

They have pretty good prices on nalgene bottles.

 

Yes, and if you have a Container Store in your area, you can order online for pick-up and save on shipping. This place is as addicting as ink!

[fiberdrunk]

Here's another supply link: Kremer Pigmente They sell pigments and chemicals. They also have several paint and even iron gall ink recipes. I never noticed this before, but they have an iron gall ink forum and also the Historical use of Shellac Ink Forum.

Edited September 6, 2012 by fiberdrunk

[thorn]

Here's another supply link: Kremer Pigmente They sell pigments and chemicals. They also have several paint and even iron gall ink recipes. I never noticed this before, but they have an iron gall ink forum and also the Historical use of Shellac Ink Forum.

 

 

I was just in NYC the other day. It would have been neat go to the store.

 

I wonder if http://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/pigments/sepia-very-fine--0---63u-12402.html would work for FP ink? It's 63 microns in size.

[inkdesigner]

Here's another supply link: Kremer Pigmente They sell pigments and chemicals. They also have several paint and even iron gall ink recipes. I never noticed this before, but they have an iron gall ink forum and also the Historical use of Shellac Ink Forum.

 

 

I was just in NYC the other day. It would have been neat go to the store.

 

I wonder if http://www.kremer-pigmente.com/en/pigments/sepia-very-fine--0---63u-12402.html would work for FP ink? It's 63 microns in size.

 

63 microns is pretty big, at least in the inkjet world. ALL the pigmented inks on the market today for aqueous based inkjet printing is in the submicron range. Think 50 to 250 nm (which is the same as 0.050 to 0.250 microns)

 

I think when I measured the particle size of the Platinum pigmented black ink it was around 60 nm (0.06 micron)

Edited September 7, 2012 by inkdesigner

[inkdesigner]

 

I have access to a Brookfield viscometer using a #18 spindle and a surface tensiometer in my lab.

 

I wonder if you could test some commercial fountain pen inks to see what the the viscosity and surface tensions are? At least that would give us a goal to strive for. I wonder if there is a "standard" for fountain pens inks? If I remember correctly, I saw these parameters listed in some of the patents on the web.

 

Things are ramping up on a pretty big project I am heading, so my time is getting a bit limited right now. I'll try to test some various inks next week. I'll probably try Noodlers ink, Platinum or Sailor pigmented ink, and a Waterman ink. This covers the broad categories of niche, high dye loaded ink (Noodlers), pigmented ink (Platinum or Sailor), and old school traditional ink (Waterman)

[andru]

63 microns is pretty big, at least in the inkjet world. ALL the pigmented inks on the market today for aqueous based inkjet printing is in the submicron range. Think 50 to 250 nm (which is the same as 0.050 to 0.250 microns)I think when I measured the particle size of the Platinum pigmented black ink it was around 60 nm (0.06 micron)

Thanks inkdesigner, that is really interesting.

 

Things are ramping up on a pretty big project I am heading, so my time is getting a bit limited right now. I'll try to test some various inks next week. I'll probably try Noodlers ink, Platinum or Sailor pigmented ink, and a Waterman ink. This covers the broad categories of niche, high dye loaded ink (Noodlers), pigmented ink (Platinum or Sailor), and old school traditional ink (Waterman)

Would be great! Hope you can find the time.

[dgturner]

While I think about it.... Does anybody work with those nalgene spill-proof bottle (the little ones like in the picture) that we could get a bunch in bulk for cheap.... those would be great to send out some of this stuff.

 

 

 

Sirach you better be posting the recipe for the "Higgs Boson Blue" I want it just for the name!

 

 

[PJohnP]

I wonder if you could test some commercial fountain pen inks to see what the the viscosity and surface tensions are?...

...I'll try to test some various inks next week. I'll probably try Noodlers ink, Platinum or Sailor pigmented ink, and a Waterman ink. This covers the broad categories of niche, high dye loaded ink (Noodlers), pigmented ink (Platinum or Sailor), and old school traditional ink (Waterman)

 

 

That's a pretty significant task load you're taking on there !

 

I'd be curious to see just how many variation you find in these properties - I've posted a less ambitious discussion on just surfactant use to modify existing inks in another thread. My take on the subject overall is that there are many unseen complexities in ink formulation, so I'm watching this thread with great interest.

 

 

 

John P.