Open Source Ink Project

[thorn]

You are absolutely correct Elaine, I was saying that by pre-"ruining" the procion MX dyes give us an ink that won't change once it's made, but will still give us good sources of color. It won't be waterproof by any means, but will give a stable ink (water resistance will be related to Vanderwals forces, not covalent bonds).

 

Most of the shelf life issues with Procion dyes relate to hydrolysis of the reactive group if I recall correctly, if we hydrolyze that anyway, shelf life shouldn't be much of an issue.

 

 

I made some without doing any reactions and it is still stable for several months now. It never reacted with paper so it washes off.

 

 

Ok, here comes a big ink "secret"....... it is about a balance of surface tension and viscosity.... Surface tension is the key, you can find charts for how the surface tension of a water solution varies based on concentrations of glycerine and water or propylene glycol.

 

As far as bare bones recipe goes....

 

1 g Glycerine

30 g RO/distilled water

2 g any red Procion MX dye

.05% Germall Plus or equivalent (aka 1 drop-ish) (I am fond of Thymol, but you have to deal with it differently)

 

 

How about phenol? :

http://www.artistsupplysource.com/product.php?productid=53775

 

I have been using Dowicil 75, I got a sample from DOW. They only sell it in 100lbs for $1700. It only has a self live of 2 years.

 

 

A little comment on Noodler's inks and reactive dyes....his water resistance isn't a result of his use of reactive dyes...an instant reacting dye that reacts with paper, will also react with water very quickly and will be useless in less than a day in water... Reactive dyes DO tend to give better bleach resistance and wash resistance....I leave you to ponder what he does with his inks to make them water proof.... (search inkjet patents, and consider that his inks smudge, but don't wash off with water, a reactive dye by itself wouldn't rub off if it is reacting with paper). This is by no means meant to put down Noodler's inks.

 

I wonder if he is using pigments? It acts like Platinum Carbon ink which I think has pigments (carbon?).

 

I have also found that some dyes don't need any other ingredients. Just water and dye seem to work ok. And you don't need much surfactant. Regular dish washing detergent works fine, very dilute!

 

Here's some samples of ink I made. The colors don't scan well.

 

http://kd3su.us/images/page4.jpg

 

For the purple I used acid blue 9 and acid red 52

[thorn]

Here's some recipes from Industrial Dyes: Chemistry, Properties, Applications

 

http://kd3su.us/images/page1.jpg

http://kd3su.us/images/page2.jpg

http://kd3su.us/images/page3.jpg

[thorn]

 

Good thing is I can "suddenly" decide to take a look at the dyes typically used for cellulosic fibers (cotton, linen, flax, jute...). The dye manufacturers that sell acid dyes also tend to have direct and fiber reactive dyes for use in cotton, and potentially in pen ink. I've got industry contacts that I can call and get 6oz samples of powdered dye in just about any color. Blending these is straightforward, if the desired color is not a "one dye combination".

 

 

What companies do you use for dyes?

 

A lot of them won't sell to private people or they want you to buy by the ton.

[ElaineB]

How about phenol? :

http://www.artistsupplysource.com/product.php?productid=53775

I have been using Dowicil 75, I got a sample from DOW. They only sell it in 100lbs for $1700. It only has a self live of 2 years.

 

I would recommend either of these biocides for products that are mostly water:

 

Liquid Germall Plus (http://www.theherbarie.com/Liquid-Germall-Plus-pr-139.html) which is the one I used for years, and an industry standard for cosmetic formulation. You can get 1 ounce for $3.95, and that should last for a really long time. (I'd actually be more concerned about hitting the expiration date rather than running out.)

or

Germaben II (http://www.lotioncrafter.com/germaben-ii.html), another industry standard. Can get 5 oz for $5.50, and again, that is enough to last a lifetime.

 

Both of these preservatives are non-hazardous under normal use conditions, have no smell nor color, and are extremely effective. If you're interested in the safety data, the web sites I linked above have the MSDS and tech data sheets available to download.

 

Either of these preservatives are enhanced by the use of a chelating agent:

-Tetrasodium EDTA (http://www.lotioncrafter.com/tetrasodium-edta.html) for alkaline solutions (1 oz for $2)

-Disodium EDTA (http://www.lotioncrafter.com/disodium-edta.html) for use in neutral to acidic solutions (1 oz. for $2)

Chelating agents enhance any preservative system by weakening the cell walls of microbial contaminants. Again, these products are industry standards and also very low risk to keep around the house.

 

Now as far as surfactants go, there are tons to choose from, and again, we'd need more specific information about what surfactant properties are needed. Some are acidic, some are neutral, some are alkaline, some are anionic, some are nonionic... Not being a chemist, I don't know why the industrial recipes that Thorn cited above, for example, specified nonionic surfactants. But I have a feeling the surfactants are used in such low concentrations that any of them would be suitable. (It's not the same as making a concentrated cleaning product, for instance.)

[LucasT]

Blue dyes are frequently copper compounds, so we have to be careful with chelating agents as these may color shift things (haven't seen it happen, just a gut feeling)

 

Elaine, Procion dyes aren't pure dyes. As far as I understand it the manufacturing process leaves them with a fair bit of salt in them, but not enough to hurt our ink formulation. We may want to shift towards 0.5 grams or 1 gram as a starting point for the red. I use a different family of fiber reactive dyes than Procion MX, but most of them dissolve at around 4 g/30 mL readily (except the yellow...). The procion dyes I have dissolve at that concentration too, but I don't have that many of them.

 

The reason I chose ammonia vs potassium carbonate/washing soda is because it won't precipitate in the presence of calcium and other metal salts and gunk things up. Also ammonium acetate is a fairly standard buffer system (potassium carbonate won't behave in buffers very well as it tends to evolve carbon dioxide, the little minx). The reaction rate will be similar whether you use ammonia or potassium carbonate. The reason to heat is just to force the reaction to completion, yeah it's useless as a dye after 30 minutes at pH 11, but it is still changing (a 25% reduction in reaction components will drastically change your color in dyeing, but you still have 75% reactable dye)

 

Oh, also, the hydrolysis reaction of procion mx dyes creates hydrochloric acid, so your pH will shift down (more acidic) as the hydrolysis happens.

 

The reason for non-ionic surfactants is because ionic surfactants can form complexes with certain dyes, particularly those with metallic cores (blues and blacks mostly).

 

This is why people use triton X whatever-the-number-is from Dow. I found a wonderfully efficient non-ionic surfactant in BYK 333, but you can't exactly buy it in small quantities, and because it is so efficient, a 20 litre pail (at $30/lb is $1500) is more than I could use in like... 50 years or something, it's so beautiful watching one drop of a 1:100 dilution make your ink so wet it dumps out of a pen, I'm geeking out though let me contain myself.

 

As far as biocides go, I'd vote for the Germall Plus, I don't like phenol, I've worked with it a ton and it's nasty stuff and not something we want to expose people to. Thymol is a natural option (reasons I like it) but it isn't very water soluble... so harder to work with and makes your whole workshop smell like you stuck your head into a patch of oregano and thyme .

[sirach]

Open-Ink UPDATE and Artist Contest

A few notes. As Andru said in an earlier post, I have been out of town for a funeral and I have not gotten anything extra done on the webpage. I am back and trying to get caught up. I have some updates and a prize opportunity etc...

 

1. If you have requested editor access and it doesn't work yet, or you haven't been contacted.... that is my fault... I am the one who gets the results of that form.

 

2. If anyone has suggestions for the layout or design of the page... PM me or e-mail me directly.

 

3. In 9 days, we have had 1000 hits. There are currently 30 pages. We have gathered 7 Old recipes and have 1 modern recipe We have 12 major resource including a book of recipes from the 1800s. Currently we have 11 confirmed vendors for supplies... with several more being checked out. At last count we have piqued the interest of at least 4 chemists, 3 dye/pigment professionals, and a whole bunch of fountain pen users. Again... this is the first 9 days.

 

4. Our first modern ink has been formulated by LucasT. I propose the following: We need to test, confirm, and review. Double blind testing seems to make the most sense. We have some ink formulations coming, we have some access to the materials... we need different people to make some of it, and different people to test it. I have a form that you can fill out to sign up for either. Here's how it will work... We can all try to network to get some supplies floating around (but I can't promise anything) Anyone who wants to make ink, can do so, but I kind of thought we would randomize the reviewers each time, the strain on the makers would be tough... after all this is all for knowledge and good will.

 

5. We need a handful of reviewers and I think there should also be a way to win stuff. If you go to the web page http://open-ink.com you can see I just stuck some names on some ink bottles, took a picture, and slapped it up on the page... we need something better. LucasT and andru both like the idea of an Artist Contest. To make it all fair like, There are very few rules.

1. Nothing obscene... the domain name is registered by me... I am a school teacher... I just won't post it.

2. Make it cool.

3. Review the size on the page... that is about the size that it needs to be.

4. Email me your entry by September 30th: Tomas@open-ink.com.

 

I will post them all to FPN with a poll and the most popular will win. The prize: Ink from each review we do for the next calendar year... without having to have your name drawn from the list.

 

Any other ideas?

[LucasT]

That sounds great Sirach, we definitely don't want to send out that ink recipe for testing yet.

 

We need to decide on which dye, exactly how much of everything, etc. It is a starting point to get us to final formulas.

[sirach]

That sounds great Sirach, we definitely don't want to send out that ink recipe for testing yet.

 

We need to decide on which dye, exactly how much of everything, etc. It is a starting point to get us to final formulas.

 

I figured we have a few months.... I just wanted there to be some incentive for the art contest....

[LucasT]

Cool, I love the idea of the art contest winner automatically gets ink for a year, seems like a great incentive...now to decide what I want to submit...

[sirach]

While I think about it.... Does anybody work with those nalgene spill-proof bottle (the little ones like in the picture) that we could get a bunch in bulk for cheap.... those would be great to send out some of this stuff.

 

 

[LucasT]

I have a ton of the ink bottles that I use. (http://scribalworkshop.com/cryptid to see the bottles) I would be willing to donate some to the cause. They are glass, and I can't foot the bill for the shipping (fledgeling calligraphy and ink businesses don't make a lot of money )

 

Plastic may be easier to use, and I do like the look of them.

[itayxd]

Hi, I forgot to post here the response I got about the license:

If you just want to protect the recipe, then the recipe is a copyright work, and you can use one of the creative commons licences, or the GFDL.

 

 

 

However, it’s a mistake to compare the recipe of the ink with the source, and the ink itself with a binary, because making something from a recipe does not in itself infringe copyright, so you can’t add conditions to it. Compiling source, or copying a binary does infringe copyright in the absence of a licence, so you need a licence – which is how and why GPL works for software, but copyleft generally doesn’t work for hardware.

 

 

 

There is some more reasoning here, in an article I wrote on the topic: http://www.ifosslr.org/ifosslr/article/view/69/131

 

 

 

It also explains how it might be possible to make copyleft work, to a degree. You could take a look at the CERN OHL http://www.ohwr.org/projects/cernohl, http://www.ohwr.org/documents/144

 

 

 

I have also hacked the Apache licence for hardware. See here: http://solderpad.org/licenses/

 

 

 

The problem with something like a recipe is that it’s relatively simple to distil the recipe down to a set of ideas, which are not themselves protectable, so even if you do manage to impose some sort of copyleft, it’s relatively easy to circumvent it.

I also got more opinions, and it seems to be a problem to license a recipe, I also understand it may be a problem to some members and form a difficulty in the development of the project so I agree we should just give up on this.

[andru]

Regarding bottles, it seems plastic would be preferable for the lighter weight and unbreakability. But for testing, why not simply 5 mL plastic phials like those used in the FPN Ink Exchange, the Goulet samples, etc.? Really cheap, and can even be sent in a "small packet" format by post. Could work for small quantities of the chemical ingredients for ink making as well.

 

These are good ones (look like the ones used in the Ink Exchange), price is consistent with what I paid here to get some. Sterile, 5 mL, graduated with conical bottom, and the caps seal well. No doubt available in other sizes. Just my $0.02 (well, more like $0.13)...

Edited August 29, 2012 by andru

[sirach]

Regarding bottles, it seems plastic would be preferable for the lighter weight and unbreakability. But for testing, why not simply 5 mL plastic phials like those used in the FPN Ink Exchange, the Goulet samples, etc.? Really cheap, and can even be sent in a "small packet" format by post. Could work for small quantities of the chemical ingredients for ink making as well.

 

These are good ones (look like the ones used in the Ink Exchange), price is consistent with what I paid here to get some. Sterile, 5 mL, graduated with conical bottom, and the caps seal well. No doubt available in other sizes. Just my $0.02 (well, more like $0.13)...

 

I think that is a great idea... I have seen those on e-bay as well every once and a while.

[dvorak]

 

Good thing is I can "suddenly" decide to take a look at the dyes typically used for cellulosic fibers (cotton, linen, flax, jute...). The dye manufacturers that sell acid dyes also tend to have direct and fiber reactive dyes for use in cotton, and potentially in pen ink. I've got industry contacts that I can call and get 6oz samples of powdered dye in just about any color. Blending these is straightforward, if the desired color is not a "one dye combination".

 

 

What companies do you use for dyes?

 

A lot of them won't sell to private people or they want you to buy by the ton.

 

Thorn, the companies that I work with are mainly US based brokers, since there is no dyestuff manufactured in the United States anymore. When I am working on a shade for a new program, I typically call and ask for a 500 gram sample (which I get for free), this is what I would typically need to do my formulation and possibly a pilot scale dyeing for a customer submit. If we had a highly saturated ink, say 8% dye by mass, then 500g dye would make a little over 6 liters (or 120+ bottles of a generous 50mL each).

For acid dyes (I see some of these used in the references above), I have many of these dyes in house. We buy these in 100 kg increments, we probably drop more dye on the floor than I would ever use in making ink.

I guess the only question I have to work out is the ethics of the whole thing, getting a sample of a dye that I know that I will never buy, is a bit on the iffy side (y'all don't have to say it, I know you would not want me to bend the rules), on the other hand we buy hundreds or thousands of pounds of dye a year at 8 - 20$/pound... oh wait, I promise to use the ink at work in my lab notebook, so there... it's a work related material

[thorn]

Regarding bottles, it seems plastic would be preferable for the lighter weight and unbreakability. But for testing, why not simply 5 mL plastic phials like those used in the FPN Ink Exchange, the Goulet samples, etc.? Really cheap, and can even be sent in a "small packet" format by post. Could work for small quantities of the chemical ingredients for ink making as well.

 

These are good ones (look like the ones used in the Ink Exchange), price is consistent with what I paid here to get some. Sterile, 5 mL, graduated with conical bottom, and the caps seal well. No doubt available in other sizes. Just my $0.02 (well, more like $0.13)...

 

Here's some glass bottles:

 

http://www.netbottle.com/french-square-glass-bottles.html

 

The 2oz looks like the same one Noodlers uses.

[thorn]

]

 

Thorn, the companies that I work with are mainly US based brokers, since there is no dyestuff manufactured in the United States anymore. When I am working on a shade for a new program, I typically call and ask for a 500 gram sample (which I get for free), this is what I would typically need to do my formulation and possibly a pilot scale dyeing for a customer submit. If we had a highly saturated ink, say 8% dye by mass, then 500g dye would make a little over 6 liters (or 120+ bottles of a generous 50mL each).

For acid dyes (I see some of these used in the references above), I have many of these dyes in house. We buy these in 100 kg increments, we probably drop more dye on the floor than I would ever use in making ink.

I guess the only question I have to work out is the ethics of the whole thing, getting a sample of a dye that I know that I will never buy, is a bit on the iffy side (y'all don't have to say it, I know you would not want me to bend the rules), on the other hand we buy hundreds or thousands of pounds of dye a year at 8 - 20$/pound... oh wait, I promise to use the ink at work in my lab notebook, so there... it's a work related material

 

Yeah, most dyes are made in India.

 

I requested some samples from a couple of companies. They only sell to other companies, I used our farm name. One was expensive, $70 / lb and you had to buy in large quantities. Another was around $5/lb depending on the dye (if I remember correctly). Do you think we could approach one company to see if we could all buy some dyes in smaller amounts?

 

Should we pick a dye to start with?

[thorn]

They one neat thing about making your own ink is experimenting. I made one ink with lots of EtOH (Ethanol from liquor store). It dried really fast on Clairefontaine paper, about 1 sec. Bleeds right through normal paper.

 

Also, testing for light-fastness, some dyes fade away exposed to the sun...is there any data on light-fastness?

[andru]

They one neat thing about making your own ink is experimenting. I made one ink with lots of EtOH (Ethanol from liquor store). It dried really fast on Clairefontaine paper, about 1 sec. Bleeds right through normal paper.

Really useful for extractions, if going the vegetal inks route; I notice fiberdrunk used ethanol (in vodka form) in at least one recipe. And also beer ("small" and "large" beers).

 

There is a lot of sugar in most commercial liquors, I guess the possible issues with sugars would have to be addressed. Distillation of vodka could be something to try ... But in what countries would that be illegal, actually!? ... Everclear, anyone?

 

Or would it be okay to have sugar in ink?...

 

You know it's funny this is coming up, because I set a tacit challenge to myself just last night, to try to contribute an ink additive, FP safe, which makes an ink appear like when wet, but after drying on the paper. Most inks look a lot more vibrant wet before drying. I think shellac achieves this, but it's known to be poisonous to fountain pens. Gee - some form of sugar might be the ticket!

[thorn]

 

There is a lot of sugar in most commercial liquors, I guess the possible issues with sugars would have to be addressed. Distillation of vodka could be something to try ... But in what countries would that be illegal, actually!? ... Everclear, anyone?

 

 

 

Sorry, I should have said, it was grain alcohol, 190 proof. One other thing is that some feeds might melt away:

 

Celluloid is in fact processed using none other than alcohols…so unless you want to “reverse engineer” your pen chemically…please avoid alcohol and other harsh solvents (acetones, MEK, etc..).

 

 

http://noodlersink.com/whats-new/new-flex-nibs/