Open Source Ink Project

[ElaineB]

I don't know the mechanics behind pigmented inks and how they become waterproof. I know that some paint pigments naturally stain paper because of electrostatic attraction between the molecules of the pigment and the paper. (Hair conditioners work in similar ways, allowing them to linger behind on the hair strands even after rinsing with water.) But I don't know if this is the mechanic that gives an ink like Platinum Carbon Black its waterproof qualities.

 

The Noodler's bulletproof inks do not seem to be pigment inks, from what I've read. The fact that they must come into contact with the cellulose of the paper and need time to chemically bond would indicate the use of a dye, not pigment. There is a large family of textile dyes called "fiber reactive" dyes, and they bond to plant-based fibers like cotton, linen, rayon (cellulose), etc. I'm guessing that Noodler's might be based, in part, on this family of dyes, due to the time requirement for the chemical reaction. But this is only a guess.

 

I'm not sure what Omas and Herbin mean when they speak about "vegetal dyes" in their inks. There is a sizeable community of textile artisans who get their dyestuffs directly from plants, rather than use synthetic dyes developed in the late 19th-20th century. These are small-scale productions, however. When you're working with plant matter, there is going to be tremendous variation in the amount of active dye ingredients in each batch, due to seasonal variation in growing conditions. It would not be easy to standardize colors from batch to batch and to get the brightest colors you have to start using metallic salts like copper, tin, and chrome. I have seen dye plant extracts for sale, but they are extremely expensive. So I have to wonder if there's a bit of fanciful marketing language going on. Especially because Herbin's colors are really REALLY different from the plant-based colors that I'm familiar with.

 

As for RIT dyes and food coloring: those are two different dye families that aren't really appropriate for use on cellulose paper.

 

RIT is what's called a union dye, in that it contains two different dyes of the same color: one for cellulose, one for protein fibers like wool. The idea is that a consumer could toss any clothing into a RIT dyebath without worrying about its fiber content, and dye the pieces to the desired color. But remember, at the end of the dyeing process, only 50% of the dye will have been activated and used up (e.g., cotton shirts won't accept the wool dye, wool socks wouldn't bond with the cellulose dyes). If you used RIT dyes in ink, 50% of the dye will never be activated, and it will sit on the surface of the paper, just waiting for the slightest touch of moisture to dissolve it and start smearing. In addition, the range of RIT colors is pretty limited and the dyes are expensive.

 

Food coloring is a subset of what are called "acid dyes" that are used on protein fibers. They won't bond with cellulose. And even if they did, they are horribly expensive and come in a very limited range of colors. There are much better alternatives available.

 

As for corrosive properties, yes, none of the dyes I've ever used have had corrosive effects on steel or plastic. In fact, I use steel, plastic, and glass when working with dyes because they don't react chemically with the dyebaths.

 

Brent said a few messages back that he's a lab assistant at a textile dyeing company, so I'm very interested in his take on all this. I've worked with four different families of protein dyes, and two different fiber-reactive dyes on cellulose. Of these five, I'd probably recommend starting with Procion fiber reactive dyes for a few basic colors like blue, black, and red. But I readily cede to Brent's expertise if he feels another dye series might work better for this. The Procion dyes are readily available (even in craft stores like Michaels), and require an alkaline solution to fix permanently onto paper. So the whole worry about acidic inks damaging paper is a moot point.

Edited August 19, 2012 by ElaineB

[andru]

Wow, Elaine, that's a lot of great information. We're lucky to have you posting on this. I was looking for info about RIT inks yesterday; thanks for that explanation.

 

Regarding Noodler's, I've read numerous opinions that some, including the bullet-proofs, are colloidal (or suspensions), and then there's the evidence of my own eyes that some of the inks such as the FPN Galileo Manuscript Brown are milky. I think the source of opinion I had in mind was Richard Binder's blog (second grey Note box). Mr. Binder asserts that it is the cellulose-bonding component which is in suspension, but that hasn't made sense to some who have commented. Obviously I don't want this to become another Noodler's battle zone -- and I'm interested in suspensions or colloids from a positive perspective, that they might be useful, not that they are necessarily bad.

 

I used the term "coagulation" last post, but member Sholom, who seems quite knowledgeable about this subject, reminded me (old post) that the correct term is "flocculation". It would also be nice to have SamCapote's input here, based on posts I've seen. And Chemyst's. Well, then list goes on...

 

I'm just getting started learning about this. Found a lot of resources, but am far from having assimilated them. Here are more links (some only to the specific posts, some for whole topics). This is slanted towards pigments and colloidal dispersions, based on todays search queries.

 

Chemistry World - Ink Chemistry (compliments of SamCapote)

(concerning colloids)

what-is-ink-made-of

safe-ink-vs-unsafe

what-is-the-safest-ink

insoluble-precipitates-in-noodlers

ink-chemistry-primer-dye-v-pigment

 

sirach, any news about a wiki platform for us? There are numerous interesting threads here (and other resources webside, of course), but they're tough to track down, and often hard to read due the strangely inflammatory nature of the subject. A high proportion of closed threads (for example Ink Chemistry Primer which contains a lot of interesting information, but is hard to read due to excessive quoting, and sullied by off-topic personal cruft that would be relegated to a Talk page of a wiki).

 

Member MCN posted a link (in the Recommendations For A Really Dark Red topic). The links off that document provide a vast amount of seemingly high-quality information on colour theory.

 

We should really be building up a wiki!

 

Andrew

[sirach]

removed

Edited August 20, 2012 by sirach

[sirach]

removed

Edited August 20, 2012 by sirach

[LucasT]

Salt is a an issue for several reasons, if it doesn't abosrb water from the air, it can contribute to clogging at the nib. The other issue is that pH is not the only thing that contributes to corrosion. Table salt (NaCl) can cause serious pitting on metals, including stainless steel. A little salt doesn't really matter, Procion MX dyes have some salt, for example, but not enough to cause a serious issue, however RIT has added salt (to be honest it is mostly salt). There are non-reactive dye types that come from plants, like what J. Herbin uses (I assume they aren't being "gimmicky" with their marketing, which they may be) natural plant dying relies heavily on mordants etc. to cause the dyes to actually bond with the cloth. Cellulose based (linen, cotton, etc.) tend to require a tannin pre-mordant before reacting with the dye material. If I understand correctly J. Herbin inks aren't known for having great permanence on paper, nor great lightfastness, etc which is what you would expect from plant-based colors.

 

The reason to use Glaubers salts(sodium sulfate) vs Table Salt (sodium chloride) in dying has to do with corrosion on equipment, if I remember correctly. ElaineB would probably know better than I though.

[professionaldilettante]

Professionaldilettante, The assumption is that a majority of fountain pen users will be using commercially made fountain pen inks. If that wasn't the case I wouldn't be interested in starting this project as I would put myself out of a job.

One of the safest inks for fountain pens and health you can make would be a synthetic blue food coloring, water, glycerine, and some Germall plus (oh, wait that might just be our starting point formulation. ) You can start adding lubricants, anti corrosion additives, etc, etc.

Now is our formulation going to maximize profits for a multinational ink manufacturer due to minimal raw material cost? No. Are we all going to have fun and create an ink formulation that we created that costs less per ounce to make than it costs to buy a bottle of ink at retail? Yep. Will it be safe for fountain pens? Yep. Will we test it in a documented round-robin test in multiple pen types by multiple observers and test it in various conditions? You betcha. Can any other commercial ink manufacturer say they've done that? Doubtful. Will we ruin some pens, kitchen counters, clothes, etc. Yeah, probably, but that all depends on how risky we want to be.

 

Mostly, I think we're in it for the fun, if it doesn't sound like fun, or if you are a commercial fountain pen manufacturer who shivers at the idea of people de-mystifying the fountain pen ink world, well...um, nobody said you had to come play with us .

Thanks for the hostility. I am just sharing the burn I got for posing a very similar question early in my days on FPN.There is more to ink than just food coloring and water. I doubt any one will be able to reverse engineer an ink like Sailor Kiwa-guro.

[pharmacist]

It depends: some dyes exert a preservative as well as a lubricating action and simply a plain solution in water, with some polyol and acid is enough to make a good flowing writing ink. Others need extensive additives to make it flow well....from a hobbyist ink brewer

[LucasT]

Professionaldilettante, first, I intended no hostility. I am sorry if it came across that way. Second, the open source mentality isn't to reverse engineer anything, as far as I understand it, but to build something from the ground up. If people truly think this is a terrible idea, perhaps we shouldn't embark upon it, but if even a few are interested, even in a cursory way we should at least enjoy ourselves. I'm fairly certain there is a LOT of ink making expertise on here given that Nathan from Noodler's is on here, Chemyst is here, Pharmacist is here. Those are just three that I am fairly confident already make inks, or are involved in ink manufacture. I suspect someone from private Reserve, Pelikan, etc, etc, have a presence as well. Now are they going to give away their secrets... We would love them forever for teaching us, but I doubt it. (seeing the post above, I think pharmacist is an exception Thanks, pharmacist!)

 

And yes, there is more to ink than food coloring and water, but those are all things that can be learned given the right set of teachers.

[andru]

Mostly for the sake of proving to myself that it was easy, I've created a subdomain and put up a wiki. It's a MediaWiki -- that's the same wiki software wikipedia uses.

 

... (link removed) ...

 

I've confirmed it is editable. (Took only 5 minutes to set up!) The server has an error sending a confirmation email if you register a wiki account, but account creation still works. I'll look into this if anyone else edits, but again, I'm just doing this as an experiment. I'll probably start adding content. If sirach still wants to host it, I pledge to move the content over manually.

 

All in good fun, professionaldilettante! I feel for you if you got shut down, as you say, when you tried to start something similar. That couldn't happen on the wiki, really; it's a chat forum phenomenon.

 

Andrew

 

Edit: It seems that sirach is going to go ahead with the wiki after all (although they've not yet re-posted the link at time of this edit), so, while I can, I've removed the link to my stub wiki.

 

Another great link, Linda Medley's work showing mixing of colours from CMYK primaries (uses Noodler's inks):

http://harmless-dilettante.blogspot.ca/2010/09/ink-mixing.html

Edited August 21, 2012 by andru

[caribbean_skye]

I'm certainly interested in this, but unfortunately have no background in chemistry whatsoever (although it looks that that area is well covered already). However I'll help in any way that I can.

[Gerry]

Wow, this brings back a lot of memories. (Hello Gerry, hope you are well!) If you read the FPN thread from 2005, I was one of the active members in that particular project, with a small lab and access to a lot of potential ingredients. Unfortunately, my life shifted suddenly in 2005 and I no longer have a lab nor materials to offer. However, I am still quite interested in the idea of an open source ink project and will be happy to contribute what I can. I'm very experienced with dyes and color theory, so perhaps I could help out with color development.

 

Hello Elaine. Really glad to see you here, and to find out that you are still very much active on the FPN.

 

This has been quite the experience for me - seeing all the enthusiasm these members bring to the issue all over again. Your experience and knowledge are certainly an asset to the project. Do you remember the person who created the web site? Unfortunately my memory isn't that good., but it would be interesting to see if we could contact him.

 

Perhaps the result will be different from the previous effort - I hope so. Regardless, I'll support it as far as I am able.

 

Warm regards to all.

 

Gerry

[LucasT]

Thanks for your support Gerry!

And to everyone who doesn't have any chemistry experience or background, don't worry, as long as you come willing to learn those of us who do have the chemistry background will start to put together some mini articles to help everyone else learn the chemistry they need.

 

The link Andru posted made me think....we need an initial goal for the project. What about if we make a set of three primary inks (cyan, magenta, yellow), a colorless ink, and a black ink. This is a target of 5 inks, and gives the possibility of infinite mix-ability?

 

Oh, and how about some color mixing theory once we are done?

 

Thoughts?

[sirach]

Andru and I have done some collaborating over the past few days to get a Wiki of sorts launched. Through some of the back channels, there has been some strong points made about keeping everything current on FPN too.

 

 

Here is my thought: FPN is great... but it lacks a certain ... jen e sais quoi... for resource documents. The best example I could put my finger on was the Montblanc post on dateing 149s: http://www.fountainp...montblanc-149s/ If you use the chart that pops up on the first page... you will miss out on the final chart. The final chart, after suggestions and editing... is on post #108. Gerry suggested we keep an index that can be updated, but I really think there is something more effective we can do.

 

Here is my proposal:

 

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-feQSD7hhDFE/UDOLW9tF9qI/AAAAAAAABvw/RIHIQ2n5kjk/s640/Open-Ink+FlowChart.jpg

My goal is that we have a central repository for up-to-date information. I can not just pull anything off of FPN and post it in the wiki. If, however, you have written an article that you would like on the wiki, shoot me a PM with a link to the original topic and express permission to post it.

 

I am not going to copyright/use protect anything on the page for multiple reasons. First of all... not everyone will be able to make inks, that doesn't mean they shouldn't have access to them... and we are in tough economic times, if one of you can make a couple bucks... more power to you. Second... we have several amateur ink makers. I want them to feel free to add in information and not worry about how it will affect their side businesses.

 

I can add editors for specific pages or categories, I can create new pages, categories, etc. This is a community project. We want there to be more info on ink making... here is the chance...

 

 

The webpage is http://www.open-ink.com

Edited August 21, 2012 by sirach

[pencils+pens]

The link Andru posted made me think....we need an initial goal for the project. What about if we make a set of three primary inks (cyan, magenta, yellow), a colorless ink, and a black ink. This is a target of 5 inks, and gives the possibility of infinite mix-ability?

 

Given its scarcity in the marketplace, a white ink for writing might be an early color to consider.

[sirach]

Thanks for your support Gerry!

And to everyone who doesn't have any chemistry experience or background, don't worry, as long as you come willing to learn those of us who do have the chemistry background will start to put together some mini articles to help everyone else learn the chemistry they need.

 

The link Andru posted made me think....we need an initial goal for the project. What about if we make a set of three primary inks (cyan, magenta, yellow), a colorless ink, and a black ink. This is a target of 5 inks, and gives the possibility of infinite mix-ability?

 

Oh, and how about some color mixing theory once we are done?

 

Thoughts?

 

Sounds great Lucas. If we can get some of the Iron Gall people on board t0o... I think we really have something going. It was a great idea... amazing how it has taken off... isn't it?

Edited August 21, 2012 by sirach

[LucasT]

There is a difference between a white and a clear ink....I know Noodler's has whiteness of the whale, that isn't, um, well...the idea makes my skin crawl a bit, not that I'm saying it doesn't work fine. pencils+pens do you mean a clear ink for mixing purposes, or a true white ink for writing on dark paper? A true white ink requires something that is not in solution, or becomes opaque upon drying, there is no white dye, because a dye absorbs a certain set of colors of light, thereby causing the light reflected by the underlying paper to change colors (aka we only get back a subset of colors of white light) To make an ink that is white, on say black paper, requires one of two things. An ink that is fluorescent (absorbs UV light and generates visible light) and puts off white light itself (the closest you usually get is a bluish color). The color and intensity will vary with how much and what wavelengths of UV light you expose it to. The other option is what most dip pen inks and paints use, it is a suspension of a white pigment, which blocks the light from the paper (therefore you don't see black) and it reflects white light as well. The main pigment that is used now is titanium white (TiO2, either rutile or anatase, usually synthetic). It is created by burning titanium chloride in a flue and creates very small particles (the smaller the particles the less material it takes to make "white"). TiO2 also has the added advantage of being slightly fluorescent as well, so you get both effects. The best bet I can see is a very good white pigment being created that has a density closer to water than TiO2 That is nanonized (yeah, its a word).

 

 

When I get time I will try to write a pigments vs dyes article as well as a "the problem of finding the mythical white fountain pen ink". A clear ink we can knock together fairly quickly, but a white ink will take quite a bit longer. Who feels like creating a new class of pigment?

 

On the topic of iron gall, do we want historic for dip pens or for fountain pens?

[sirach]

On the topic of iron gall, do we want historic for dip pens or for fountain pens?

 

I would say both.... personally... I would love a FP friendly IG ink that could be used in a dip pen...

[josiah]

On the topic of iron gall, do we want historic for dip pens or for fountain pens?

 

There is a set of recipes from the 1881 Household Cyclopedia that I think would go well in the old ink category, but each item should have a warning that these inks are not tested for fountain pens and may convert a modern fountain pen into a brick of gum Arabic with a rusted-out steel nib at one end. Or something.

 

In fact, I think that the top page for the Old Inks section should have a warning that many of these recipes predate fountain pens and should probably not be used in fountain pens unless certain conditions are met, such as acid control, something other than gum Arabic to control the flow, etc.

 

Finally, how should edit access be handled? Here?

Edited August 21, 2012 by josiah

[pencils+pens]

I got the idea for a white ink from this recent thread White Ink?

 

Whiteness of the Whale is mentioned in that thread. I thought I also saw mention of a Pelikan White ink, but that might only be for dip pens.

[sirach]

Finally, how should edit access be handled? Here?

 

I was thinking of setting up a request form for specific pages, and than on each page, have a link for posting a comment... otherwise, it can all link back here so that the discussion can maintain congruity with FPN

 

 

 

EDIT: And.... done....

 

please note... we are trying to keep most of the discussion on FPN... just making an easy-access repository at open-ink.com....

Edited August 21, 2012 by sirach