"rhythm" - Can Someone Explain This To Me?

[Zipzap]

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/4215/img1562y.jpg

[VillersCotterets]

You need more practice, but this is it. You got it. Because you writing is was based on a series of short incomplete sharp turns, the letters arewere not fully formed. They lack the transitional curves and bends They are not regular from one letter to the other. For instance, the letters "n, m, h," should share the same lower arch. The letter "m" is a double width "n". The letter "h" is a letter "n" with an higher stem.

 

As for rhythm, Caliken best described it :

 

  On 6/10/2012 at 12:52 PM, caliken said:

Handwriting is rhythmic if it follows the same pattern throughout.

 

 

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd289/caliken_2007/rhythmexercises400.jpg

Edited June 26, 2012 by VillersCotterets

[patrickfp]

This is just a thought and others may add their opinion here. After having seen your handwriting over time, I believe you're better off not trying to join your letters for now, and focus on forming each letter correctly. My opinion is influenced by Lloyd Reynolds videos. I noticed that many of my m, n, and h were pointy in my italic handwriting. After having written quite a bit without joining my letters and focusing only on the correct shape of each letter, I started to see some progress.

[VillersCotterets]

I agree with PatrickFP that you need to better visualize the correct shape of several letters.

 

You could pick up a calligraphic pen (italic ~1.5 mm) and start learning the Foundational Hand to improve your comprehension of letters.

 

  Quote

Foundational hand calligraphy is the most basic form of calligraphy for beginners and quite easy to learn. Foundational hand was originated from Edward Johnston. He created foundational hand with the purpose of simplifying old English calligraphy, and making it easier to read.

 

http://www.ehow.com/...owercase-h.html

http://www.ehow.com/video_4944178_italic-hand-calligraphy-lowercase-u.html

Edited June 26, 2012 by VillersCotterets

[pmhudepo]

And in order to be able to form each letter correctly, you may need to slow down, particularly for the arches and curves. As Mickey contributed: "A curved line between any two points will take a longer time to draw than a straight line or it must be drawn at a greater velocity than the straight line. When greater velocity becomes impossible or when insufficient time is allotted, a curved line will straighten."

Slow down, write large and practise, then scale down and speed up as your skill improves. At least, that's what I am trying to do. Familiarize yourself with a comfortable position, relaxed grip and fluid motion.

For instance, I'm trying to learn Business Writing and I tend to form the ascenders and descenders fairly slowly so they are curved nicely, but I create the little "tails" on the letters much quicker so they are quite light. (Probably, "tail" isn't the right term... exit or finishing stroke?)

[Mickey]

  On 6/26/2012 at 1:05 PM, patrickfp said:

This is just a thought and others may add their opinion here. After having seen your handwriting over time, I believe you're better off not trying to join your letters for now, and focus on forming each letter correctly. My opinion is influenced by Lloyd Reynolds videos. I noticed that many of my m, n, and h were pointy in my italic handwriting. After having written quite a bit without joining my letters and focusing only on the correct shape of each letter, I started to see some progress.

 

I'm not sure how much good omitting joins will do for Zipzap, but I heartily agree he needs to focus on forming each letter correctly and I agree that watching the Lloyd Reynold videos would be useful. (I got hooked on italic handwriting by those videos when they first ran on our local PBS outlet back in the early 80s.) I would, however, go further and advise, before tackling letters, to first learn how to produce the fundamental strokes reliably - vertical lines, circles, ellipses, etc. - maintaining uniform slant and spacing.

 

First and foremost, I would recommend that Zipzap slow down, not rush. This goes both for the writing itself and his practice. Repairing his handwriting will not take forever, but it won't be fixed in a week. (Though a week of well directed practice could produce noticeable change for the better.)

 

As for his latest posted effort, the larger writing is simply that, Larger. It is not fundamentally changed. It is still chaotic. Where it may show some improvement is probably attributable to the letters being made large enough to fill the grid, the graph imposing structure on his writing not presently embedded in his practices. For this reason, I suggest he either continue writing on graph paper at that scale or find some other lined paper which enforces uniform heights for minuscules, ascenders, descenders, and majuscules. (This will also encourage uniform slant.) Seyes or French-rule paper is excellent for such practice.

[pmhudepo]

Addition: this video by caliken may help. He's not writing everything at the same speed.

[Mickey]

Removing redundant post.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Mickey

[Mickey]

  On 6/26/2012 at 1:39 PM, pmhudepo said:

Addition: this video by caliken may help. He's not writing everything at the same speed.

 

Excellent.

 

Though in a different style, I think the following shows what I've been trying to explain about rhythm and tempo even more clearly (especially in conjunction with Ken's video.)

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=FVpz3YCpKLQ

Edited June 26, 2012 by Mickey

[wyldphyre]

  On 6/26/2012 at 1:19 PM, VillersCotterets said:

 

You could pick up a calligraphic pen (italic ~1.5 mm) and start learning the Foundational Hand to improve your comprehension of letters.

 

 

Any suggestions for a cheap pen with an oblique nib that would be suitable for learning Italic or Foundational calligraphy?

 

Now that you've mentioned it, I think I might have to try something like that if I want to really improve my handwriting, though it is getting a little better because of this thread .

[Mickey]

  On 6/26/2012 at 2:19 PM, wyldphyre said:

  On 6/26/2012 at 1:19 PM, VillersCotterets said:

You could pick up a calligraphic pen (italic ~1.5 mm) and start learning the Foundational Hand to improve your comprehension of letters.

 

 

Any suggestions for a cheap pen with an oblique nib that would be suitable for learning Italic or Foundational calligraphy?

 

Now that you've mentioned it, I think I might have to try something like that if I want to really improve my handwriting, though it is getting a little better because of this thread .

 

The cheapest solution is dip pens, straight cut for italic (possibly left-oblique for condensed cursive) and right oblique for Foundational (and uncials, Roman caps, etc.). Any of these hand can be written with the straight cut (italic) nib, though some adjustment of paper and hand position (not your grip!) will be necessary. You don't need an oblique pen, but for some of us (for some hands) they do make things go a bit easier.

 

If you want to go the FP route, the Lamy italic nibs seem to be pretty popular and easy to change.

[patrickfp]

So far, I have offered some opinions but have not said anything about rhythm. This is how I understand rhythm. To me, one should look at correcting rhythm issues in the arm and hand movements. By that I mean, the pen should be held properly and the writer should adopt the right posture. The writing surface should be cleared of anything which would affect the free flowing of writing like when the paper needs to be moved.

 

Why do I say that?

 

Anything that inteferes with the free flowing movement of the arm, the hand, and the paper as well as the body posture will result in fatigue and will manifest itself in the quality of the writing. The muscles should be relatively relaxed. Of course, we need to have some contraction to get the pen to move.

 

A good analogy is pullup exercise. The first time I tried it, I found it so hard. Then one day, I

"accidentally" struck the right balance between contraction and relaxation and bingo!

 

That said, all this is only part of the equation. It will also help to take a step back and have a fresh look at the letters and see where the problem is. If we don't know where we are going, then we'll never know if we have arrived. Personally, I have practiced many times without a pen nor paper. I have visualised the shapes of the letters and traced them with my hand many times while in the shower. I read somewhere that a pianist who was in prison for many years came out still good at playing the piano. He said he practiced all the time (in his mind) while in prison.

[Mickey]

  On 6/26/2012 at 3:51 PM, patrickfp said:

So far, I have offered some opinions but have not said anything about rhythm. This is how I understand rhythm. To me, one should look at correcting rhythm issues in the arm and hand movements. By that I mean, the pen should be held properly and the writer should adopt the right posture. The writing surface should be cleared of anything which would affect the free flowing of writing like when the paper needs to be moved.

 

Why do I say that?

 

Anything that inteferes with the free flowing movement of the arm, the hand, and the paper as well as the body posture will result in fatigue and will manifest itself in the quality of the writing. The muscles should be relatively relaxed. Of course, we need to have some contraction to get the pen to move.

 

A good analogy is pullup exercise. The first time I tried it, I found it so hard. Then one day, I

"accidentally" struck the right balance between contraction and relaxation and bingo!

 

That said, all this is only part of the equation. It will also help to take a step back and have a fresh look at the letters and see where the problem is. If we don't know where we are going, then we'll never know if we have arrived. Personally, I have practiced many times without a pen nor paper. I have visualised the shapes of the letters and traced them with my hand many times while in the shower. I read somewhere that a pianist who was in prison for many years came out still good at playing the piano. He said he practiced all the time (in his mind) while in prison.

 

If it was the story I heard, the pianist was Lili Krause (who told me the story herself), who was held in a Japanese prisoner of war camp in Java for three years, during which, in the version I heard, she did a lot of menial work, scrubbing floors, latrines, etc. Supposedly, the rough work ended up strengthened her hands and, though she initially had trouble making use of the new found strength, it ultimately expanded her range of musical expression.

[patrickfp]

  On 6/26/2012 at 4:28 PM, Mickey said:

If it was the story I heard, the pianist was Lili Krause (who told me the story herself), who was held in a Japanese prisoner of war camp in Java for three years, during which, in the version I heard, she did a lot of menial work, scrubbing floors, latrines, etc. Supposedly, the rough work ended up strengthened her hands and, though she initially had trouble making use of the new found strength, it ultimately expanded her range of musical expression.

 

I don't remember the name. It was from my Psychology 101 course, which I took in 2005.

 

I do believe that we have a better chance of producing a better result if the action has been visualised internally before.

[Mickey]

  On 6/26/2012 at 5:00 PM, patrickfp said:

  On 6/26/2012 at 4:28 PM, Mickey said:

If it was the story I heard, the pianist was Lili Krause (who told me the story herself), who was held in a Japanese prisoner of war camp in Java for three years, during which, in the version I heard, she did a lot of menial work, scrubbing floors, latrines, etc. Supposedly, the rough work ended up strengthened her hands and, though she initially had trouble making use of the new found strength, it ultimately expanded her range of musical expression.

 

I don't remember the name. It was from my Psychology 101 course, which I took in 2005.

 

I do believe that we have a better chance of producing a better result if the action has been visualised internally before.

 

'Externalization' is useful too, rehearsing the pen movement free of the table. Someone posted in one of these threads that his father or grandfather rehearsed the starting strokes in the air over the page before actually writing. As I recalled, it was described as 'winding up the arm.' Kind of like waggling the golf club.

 

And I can attest to the value of visualization. I changed my default golf ball flight from left to right to right to left during a period when I could not play, just by holding a club and visualizing a different swing path. Out on the course now, I first visualize the swing I want to put on the ball and then rehearse the swing before addressing the ball.

Edited June 26, 2012 by Mickey

[patrickfp]

  On 6/26/2012 at 5:33 PM, Mickey said:

'Externalization' is useful too, rehearsing the pen movement free of the table. Someone posted in one of these threads that his father or grandfather rehearsed the starting strokes in the air over the page before actually writing. As I recalled, it was described as 'winding up the arm.' Kind of like waggling the golf club.

 

And I can attest to the value of visualization. I changed my default golf ball flight from right to left to left to right during a period when I could not play, just by holding a club and visualizing a different swing path. Out on the course now, I first visualize the swing I want to put on the ball and then rehearse the swing before addressing the ball.

 

If my fingers produced ink, then I would have had to replace my shower curtain quite often. I also did the arm in the air thing. I think Lloyd Reynolds put it very well in saying that one should visualise it, go over the letter shape without writing it and then write without judging. Without judging "does not mean that you have to write stupidly."

[wyldphyre]

  On 6/26/2012 at 3:22 PM, Mickey said:

The cheapest solution is dip pens, straight cut for italic (possibly left-oblique for condensed cursive) and right oblique for Foundational (and uncials, Roman caps, etc.). Any of these hand can be written with the straight cut (italic) nib, though some adjustment of paper and hand position (not your grip!) will be necessary. You don't need an oblique pen, but for some of us (for some hands) they do make things go a bit easier.

 

If you want to go the FP route, the Lamy italic nibs seem to be pretty popular and easy to change.

 

Thanks for the info. I have a Lamy Safari, so their italic nib might well be one of my cheapest options, but I just found the Kaweco Calligraphy set for not much more than twice what the Lamy nib would cost me, so I think I might end up going with that if I do decide to go the calligraphy path. Still not sure if I will as I have to honest and say I've never had much interest in it other than thinking it looks nice. My primary motivation at this point would be to help my writing, and I'm kind of happy with the improvements I've managed so far just from taking more time and paying more attention.

 

Still, I suspect that some italic nibs will end up making their way into may hands at some point, if only to try them out .

[Zipzap]

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/9122/img1568fs.jpg

[VillersCotterets]

  On 6/26/2012 at 1:39 PM, Mickey said:

I heartily agree he needs to focus on forming each letter correctly

 

Exactly what I've been saying and you kept telling me I am wrong. He must focus on forming the correct complete letter shapes instead of only focus on having slanted letters of any approximate shape. Priority to overall shape instead of slant. Shape before slant.

[Zipzap]

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7758/img1571r.jpg