"rhythm" - Can Someone Explain This To Me?

[Zipzap]

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/631/img1510pt.jpg

 

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1268/img1514p.jpg

 

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4725/img1511zn.jpg

[Mickey]

Zipzap,

 

Of course, different hands will have different rhythms, even variations of a particular hand will exhibit some differences. The letter 'l', for instance has several obvious italic variants, each of which will have its own rhythm, likewise in Spencerian. Even the placement of a letter in a word will change its rhythm. This applies equally to visual and temporal rhythm.

 

Rhythm or timing is especially important in shaded hands, particularly Spencerian where shading letters is an expressive variable. Adding an optional shade to a letter is very similar to an agogic accent (a musical emphasis created by bending time), rubato also called tempo rubato (literally 'stolen time'). Velocity affects line thickness and it is almost impossible to produce a pleasing shade without altering tempo as well as nib pressure. So, the time gesture for that letter 'l' will change subtly with the amount of shading.

 

The combination of paper, ink, nib, weight of hand, etc. are roughly analogous to the acoustics (and size) of the performing space. Overly reverberant halls require slower tempos than 'dry' halls to provide similar effects. Absorbent paper, 'wet' inks and pens, and heavy hands are kind of like 'dry' halls, they require faster tempos, whereas hard papers (like Clairefontaine), dry inks (like most IG inks) and pens with tightly regulated feeds allow for more leisurely tempos.

 

As a (retired) professional musician, I'm probably more sensitive to this than most people, at least in my own writing, but I believe attending to the rhythm of one's writing, but visual and temporal, can provide important diagnostic insights.

Edited June 15, 2012 by Mickey

[guilhermejf]

 

It's like music or driving a race car. If you rush, you fail.

[Zipzap]

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/8595/img1528s.jpg

[Mickey]

Zipzap,

 

A tune can be played or sung at a slow tempo (largo) or rapidly (presto) and still maintain its identity, as long as the rhythm is respected and the relative durations of the notes are preserved. But rush, so that that relationships are damaged or destroyed, and the song will lose its identity, its intelligibility. This is what I mean when I say that a writer appears to lack rhythm, that he or she does not allow enough to time to properly perform every character or tries to perform each letter in exactly the same amount of time. The lack of rhythm cannot help but be reflected in the writing itself as chaotic slant, uneven heights, and or poorly related letter shapes; it's as simple as a 'k' requiring more time to produce accurately and consistently than an 'e'.

 

Well developed technique allows broad tempo latitude, but there are limits. One cannot write consistent letter forms at tempos which do not permit times slices large enough to properly write the more demanding letters.

[xsznix]

http://i.imgur.com/262WQ.jpg

[wyldphyre]

  On 6/13/2012 at 1:44 PM, Mickey said:

The problem I recognized in zipzap's writing was that it appeared rushed, not just fast, but rushed, the rhythm squashed out of it. Each character seemed to be allocated the exact same sized slice of time. This cannot be right. The down stroke of a 't' has to be allocated a fraction of a second more time than of an 'i' and an 'l' has got to seem almost leisurely slow by comparison, and so on. Failure to observe the time needs of the individual characters (or to attend to the 'music' of the words) cannot help but be reflected in the flaws of visual rhythm noted by others.

 

Huh. Now that you've put that into words I think it might well be part of the trouble I have with my hand writing. The information about keeping everything on the same slope is something I could improve, but I think my biggest issue may turn out to be the fact that I don't try to allow extra time for the characters that require it. Thanks for the insight!

[Zipzap]

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3751/img1536v.jpg

[Zipzap]

http://img651.imageshack.us/img651/3751/img1536v.jpg

[VillersCotterets]

I think Xsznix wants you to realize because you focus too much on the up and down motion of the main diagonal, the slant ( / ), you neglected to draw full expressive letters.

 

I don't know the words in English, but look at this drawing :

 

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1586/clipboard01xlj.jpg

 

You pay attention to the down stokes ("Plein").

But, you skip to draw completely all the transitional loops ("Délié") and connectors ("Liaison")

 

Many of your letters don't have any fully developed inner volume. They tend to be uni-dimensional zig-zags.

 

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1957/clipboard01xk.jpg

Your letters are missing some of the above, light and dark, green volumes, especially the light ones.

 

Shape before slant.

Edited June 22, 2012 by VillersCotterets

[Mickey]

  On 6/22/2012 at 10:54 PM, VillersCotterets said:

I think Xsznix wants you to realize because you focus too much on the up and down motion of the main diagonal, the slant ( / ), you neglected to draw full expressive letters.

 

I don't know the words in English, but look at this drawing :

 

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/1586/clipboard01xlj.jpg

 

You pay attention to the down stokes ("Plein").

But, you skip to draw completely all the transitional loops ("Délié") and connectors ("Liaison")

 

Many of your letters don't have any fully developed inner volume. They tend to be uni-dimensional zig-zags.

 

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/1957/clipboard01xk.jpg

Your letters are missing some of the above, light and dark, green volumes, especially the light ones.

 

Shape before slant.

 

I don't agree. You can't build a house if the studs aren't plumb. Chaos continues regardless of the shapes. Principle axis orientation first, whether slanted or upright, then shape.

 

I do agree that Xsznix does not complete the letter shapes and I believe the principle reason for this may be temporal, rather than simply structural. A curved line between any two points will take a longer time to draw than a straight line or it must be drawn at a greater velocity than the straight line. When greater velocity becomes impossible or when insufficient time is allotted, a curved line will straighten. I believe this is why at speed nearly everyone's handwriting degrades similarly, becoming increasingly spikey. We gradually omit the time necessary to properly complete the curved lines (and loops) which results in a cascade of other distortions.

 

What I meant, among other things, when I originally told Zipzap his writing lacked rhythm was that he was not allowing proper time for the curved strokes. I was talking about the act of writing, not (just) the marks on the page.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Mickey

[VillersCotterets]

  On 6/23/2012 at 12:15 AM, Mickey said:

when I originally told Xsznix ZipZap his writing lacked rhythm was that he was not allowing proper time for the curved strokes. I was talking about the act of writing, not (just) the marks on the page.

 

We agree. I am saying exactly the same thing as you. He neglects drawing the curved strokes.

 

He needs to draw the entire shape, not concentrate only on the diagonal, up and down motion.

Edited June 23, 2012 by VillersCotterets

[Mickey]

  On 6/23/2012 at 12:27 AM, VillersCotterets said:

  On 6/23/2012 at 12:15 AM, Mickey said:

when I originally told Xsznix ZipZap his writing lacked rhythm was that he was not allowing proper time for the curved strokes. I was talking about the act of writing, not (just) the marks on the page.

 

We agree. I am saying exactly the same thing as you. He neglects drawing the curved strokes.

 

He needs to draw the entire shape, not concentrate only on the diagonal, up and down motion.

 

Actually, we're not. He doesn't neglect drawing the curved strokes, he doesn't allocate enough time to draw them properly. He fails, he doesn't neglect. If Zipzap does not address the underlying problem, as soon as he tries to get up to speed, the shapes will fall apart again. He needs to internalize the relationship between time and shape - rhythm - then he can address the obvious structural problems.

 

This is not exactly a new idea. There are hints of it in the Spencer manuals and probably plenty of other places as well.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Mickey

[VillersCotterets]

 

I am saying "Pay attention when you draw the curves"

You are saying "Take your time to draw the curves"

I am saying, we essentially mean the same thing, but saying it with different words.

You absolutely want to disagree with me, only because I haven't used the same wording as you did.

Okay, so be it.

[Mickey]

  On 6/23/2012 at 2:42 AM, VillersCotterets said:

 

I am saying "Pay attention when you draw the curves"

You are saying "Take your time to draw the curves"

I am saying, we essentially mean the same thing, but saying it with different words.

You absolutely want to disagree with me, only because I haven't used the same wording as you did.

Okay, so be it.

 

Not really. Look at the thread title. You've pretty much ignored it. Zipzap wanted an explanation of rhythm as it pertains to writing. That question sprang from a comment I made in another thread.

 

I frankly think paying attention to the curves without addressing the core problem, which is a lack of rhythm, is not going to get him anywhere near a viable solution. It's like telling someone who is tone deaf that they should pay attention to the pitch. Trust me the 'tone deaf' do pay attention to the pitch, they just don't know how to match pitch quickly enough to sing a melody. So yes, we do disagree, but not just about the wording. You've missed the point of the thread.

[VillersCotterets]

Your music analogy doesn't help the OP to understand what he should improve. Your explanation might suit your way of thinking, but not the OP's.

 

And before you reply once again something like "No, not really. You are wrong, because only I can be right", ask yourself why the OP posted his question. He is confused because of your AUDITORY way of explaining things. I am saying exactly the same thing as you, but instead I am showing him VISUALLY what the end result should look like.

 

http://www.speakingbyfrederique.com/ear.jpghttp://www.speakingbyfrederique.com/eye.jpg

Edited June 23, 2012 by VillersCotterets

[Mickey]

  On 6/23/2012 at 4:23 AM, VillersCotterets said:

Your music analogy doesn't help the OP to understand what he should improve. Your explanation might suit your way of thinking, but not the OP's.

 

And before you reply once again something like "No, not really. You are wrong, because only I can be right", ask yourself why the OP posted his question. He is confused because of your AUDITORY way of explaining things. I am saying exactly the same thing as you, but instead I am showing him VISUALLY what the end result should look like.

 

Again, I direct you to read the original post. Nothing you have written has anything to do with either rhythm (the key term in the thread title) nor to anything else in the original post. Unless you are the OP, how can you know what he does or does not understand?

 

Among other things you don't seem to understand is the causal arrow. This discussion resulted from the question at its head, not the other way around. You might also look at the post from wyldphyre who seems to have gotten the point you're missing. I'm also having a more detailed discussion back channel with another member who seems to have grasped the concept.

 

Ken Fraser (caliken) made a very cogent post regarding visual rhythm, how the march of characters parse space. It is a close analogy of temporal rhythm. The shape of an individual character has almost nothing to do with it. Indeed, your insistence on shape before slant runs absolutely contrary to the notions put forth in Ken's post.

 

The topic under discussion was the orderly subdivision of time (or space) - rhythm - how it relates to a physical activity, i.e., writing, and how rhythm or timing relates to what ends up on the page.

[xsznix]

Whoops, did I just start a heated argument? .____.

[Mickey]

Only if you believe washing your car causes it to rain.

[GClef]

  On 6/25/2012 at 1:07 PM, Mickey said:

Only if you believe washing your car causes it to rain.

 

http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m496/gclef1114/photobucket-42563-1340652279235.jpg