Where To Start: Arm Movement Or Letter Shapes

[qwpoi]

This makes so much more sense! Thanks!

[BBU]

Interesting discussion. I did not know that my forearm muscle was supposed to act as a stationary pivot. Using it as such does seem to result in a sudden improvement in consistency, stability, and fine coordination (but does make my writing look different). Still though, I get the feeling that this technique is supposed to serve as an intermediate stage toward complete free arm movement, as I feel that would still be the most versatile approach, since writing in different sizes and horizontal movement across the page would not be inhibited. The forearm pivot technique feels strangely reminiscent of "drawing the letters" with one's fingers, but by rocking the elbow instead of bending the fingers. Maybe I just feel that way because I've been forcing myself to drive pen movement with the upper back, chest, and shoulder muscles for a few months now.

 

I'll continue practicing with both and see how it goes. But, I'm intrigued by the confidence I get from knowing that I can write a sentence that looks reasonably consistent when using the forearm pivot idea. I don't have to worry as much about a sudden slip because a nerve in my arm decided not to cooperate for a split second.

[HDoug]

I took the recently rediscovered (by FPN members at least) film made in 1947 by Sheaffer called "26 Old Characters" and excerpted all the writing footage. I think it's very instructive because it shows a variety of people and a variety of pen manipulations. We can probably assume that all of these pen holds are officially okay (at least by Sheaffer).

 

I think most telling is the very beginning showing a child drawing. She uses the arm when drawing large features and the wrist when attending to details. Most of the other pen manipulation is by fingers and wrist with the exception of the Spencerian hand writing capital letters where the hand seems to hover and move as a whole.

 

Doug

[mvarela]

Still though, I get the feeling that this technique is supposed to serve as an intermediate stage toward complete free arm movement, as I feel that would still be the most versatile approach, since writing in different sizes and horizontal movement across the page would not be inhibited. The forearm pivot technique goes. But, I'm intrigued by the confidence I get from knowing that I can write a sentence that looks reasonably consistent when using the forearm pivot idea. I don't have to worry as much about a sudden slip because a nerve in my arm decided not to cooperate for a split second.

 

I use the forearm as a pivot, both for italc and pointed scripts, except when writing Ornamental caps, but I have trouble figuring out how full-arm movement with the forearm not touching anything could be comfortable for more than a few seconds at a time...

[Ghost Plane]

The forearm pivot method will permit extensive fountain pen use on a daily basis well into one's 80s & 90s, even in arthritic users, based on family history. Simply increase the diameter of the pen to accommodate the stiffening grasp & write away for hours each day. (I come from a long line of avid correspondents & note takers who believed in continuing education right up 'til death & thus took copious notes for hours at a time at advanced ages.)

[Mickey]

Without being too doctrinaire, I would suggest that virtually any approach which allows for a very soft grip and does not have the penman leaning (heavily) on the heel of the hand will be no worse than okay. (If not compressed by excessive force, the heel of the hand can function very much like the Spencerian penman's forearm, though affording a smaller range of motion.)

 

I found HDoug's video contribution interesting. I don't know what to make of the italic segment, since the calligrapher is not writing so much as painting with a quill, multiple pen movements for what would normally be single strokes, even for fairly large scale writing. (I would call this lettering, not handwriting.*) Of the two other professional scribes, the Spencerian penman and (I was surprised) the shorthand writer both write with little or no finger movement. (It might be noted that neither has the hand anchored to the desk.) Curiously, the clip seems to show some correlation between speed, quality, and the amount of angle in the thumb joint, with the flatter thumb generally producing superior results.

 

What struck me most was how labored and slow many of the writers were.

 

* The writing instrument doesn't even appear to have an edge. It looks as if the penman in the segment is drawing a stroke outline, then filling it in.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Mickey

[isoc]

I really enjoyed the video, showing a variety of approaches that suited each person. There is, I think, not just ONE WAY. For those of you who watch golf for example, Tommy Gainey, Phil Mickelson, Bubba Watson and Adam Scott do not all have the same swing. But they each have a successful swing. Trying to get Bubba to swing like Adam or Adam to swing like Bubba would not be to the advantage of either of them.

[Mickey]

I really enjoyed the video, showing a variety of approaches that suited each person. There is, I think, not just ONE WAY. For those of you who watch golf for example, Tommy Gainey, Phil Mickelson, Bubba Watson and Adam Scott do not all have the same swing. But they each have a successful swing. Trying to get Bubba to swing like Adam or Adam to swing like Bubba would not be to the advantage of either of them.

 

If you get past the obvious differences (let's throw in Jim Furyk and Moe Norman for good measure) the most important two feet of their swings (the last 2 before contact) are remarkably similar. Repeatability is really the most important factor and not all swings are equally repeatable or durable. (Oddly enough, Moe Norman and Jim Furyk probably had and have the most idiosyncratic swings, and arguably the most repeatable and durable.)

 

Yes, there are a fair number of correct ways to swing a club or move a pen, but vastly more incorrect ways. I know. I've tried most of them. (Bogey golf was a good day.)

[Ghost Plane]

Which brings us down to physics (I used to drive a ball with the men 12 surgeries back). It's not the force you put into your pen (or your golf stroke), it's the ease of pivot over the fewest set points. By letting the pivot point in your arm take the broadest motions & an easy oval motion roll off your wrist/side of your relaxed hand, you're letting gravity & the weight of your pen do most of the work. You're only there to lightly steer.

 

I liken it to letting your writing be a continual fall forward. It's the reason I prefer a heavier pen. I find it does more of the work. Lighter pens require me to hang on when I'm at speed. They either fly out of my loose grip at the end of a line when I'm writing fast or I clamp down to hold them, resulting in hand cramps.

 

Remember, if I can sneak up behind you and snatch the pen out of your hand without resistance, your hold is loose enough. Anything tighter is too much and you're working the pen rather than letting it do the work.

 

With this style (I hesitate to call it a hold or grip as that implies force), I can transcribe almost word for word to keep up with a speaker. It allows fast writing. Slow it down & you have consistency & ease of motion.

[Mickey]

I liken it to letting your writing be a continual fall forward. It's the reason I prefer a heavier pen. I find it does more of the work. Lighter pens require me to hang on when I'm at speed. They either fly out of my loose grip at the end of a line when I'm writing fast or I clamp down to hold them, resulting in hand cramps.

 

 

I think you make a compelling argument above for getting a pen with is the right section diameter, at least when one is starting out or changing grips. I may be lucky in one respect. My hands and fingers are large enough that I don't really grip the pen so much as lock it in place. My fingers and thumb all make contact along their edges. That is what holds the pen in place, that and the natural adhesion between skin and the section material. I don't need to squeeze the pen for it to feel secure. If the section were much larger, I might be tempted to squeeze, but good habits now persist. Similarly, a very small section might encourage my digits to 'search' for a secure grip, resulting in a tense grip. Again, the old habits persist and I can hold an Elysee just as comfortably as a Gajendra.

 

BTW, I prefer very light pens, but then I work at a slanted desk, so gravity is already working for me on the pull strokes.

[knarflj]

May I jump in here and ask for help?

I have tried the forearm pivot, and acknowledge that it works well. But I do most of my writing at a slightly slanted standing desk or on a lap desk - occasionally even in my lap without a desk; in none of those circumstances am I able to rest my forearm on anything. What should I be aiming for, then? No arm or hand contact at all? Lightly rest on the heel or side of the hand instead of the forearm?

 

Also, I have noticed that I can maintain a light grip on my pen unless and until I start really concentrating on letter forms. After a certain amount of practice on those, I usually catch myself gripping the pen more and more tightly. Any advice on how to think about two things at once would be welcome.

[Mickey]

May I jump in here and ask for help?

 

I have tried the forearm pivot, and acknowledge that it works well. But I do most of my writing at a slightly slanted standing desk or on a lap desk - occasionally even in my lap without a desk; in none of those circumstances am I able to rest my forearm on anything. What should I be aiming for, then? No arm or hand contact at all? Lightly rest on the heel or side of the hand instead of the forearm?

 

Also, I have noticed that I can maintain a light grip on my pen unless and until I start really concentrating on letter forms. After a certain amount of practice on those, I usually catch myself gripping the pen more and more tightly. Any advice on how to think about two things at once would be welcome.

 

Let me tackle this in reverse order. One of the reasons I'm a big fan of Spencerian (and many of its close kin) is that it has a stroke based pedagogy. The proper letter forms are an inevitable consequence of learning the correct strokes. Italic and other hands can (and have been) approached in this manner. Try moving in that direction with your practice. Stroke and observe. Wax on, Wax off. Critique your letters after you write them, not while you're writing them.

 

The reason your grip tightens is because you are steering the pen with your fingers, not making strokes. Yes you can make strokes using (primarily) the fingers, but those are the vertical strokes. The horizontal movements should (must) come from movement of the hand as a whole if you want to avoid hand fatigue and a tight grip. Whether that lateral movement comes from the wrist or from the arm is open to debate or, at the very least, interpretation.

 

Once you become comfortable with a stroke based approach, much of the first question is answered. I would make one point, however. The desk stabilizes the forearm. It is not there to support your upper body. (If you must lean on something, lean on the non-writing hand.) The writing desk in my office is slanted - it provides plenty of stability for the arm - and I do a great deal of work at a lap desk, where the side of my body, (more specifically, the right side of my stomach) stabilizes the arm.

 

I hope that helps a bit.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Mickey

[isoc]

 

If you get past the obvious differences (let's throw in Jim Furyk and Moe Norman for good measure) the most important two feet of their swings (the last 2 before contact) are remarkably similar. Repeatability is really the most important factor and not all swings are equally repeatable or durable. (Oddly enough, Moe Norman and Jim Furyk probably had and have the most idiosyncratic swings, and arguably the most repeatable and durable.)

 

Yes, there are a fair number of correct ways to swing a club or move a pen, but vastly more incorrect ways. I know. I've tried most of them. (Bogey golf was a good day.)

For me double bogey golf is a typical day, bogeys are good! My "swing coach" PGA Teaching Professional has got me with a good stance, grip and backswing. I'm still working on the rest of the swing!

[Mickey]

For me double bogey golf is a typical day, bogeys are good! My "swing coach" PGA Teaching Professional has got me with a good stance, grip and backswing. I'm still working on the rest of the swing!

 

Then you almost surely appreciate the difference between guiding the club and swinging it. The most interesting parts of the swing happen too rapidly to control directly in real time, just like handwriting.

[Ghost Plane]

I think you make a compelling argument above for getting a pen with is the right section diameter, at least when one is starting out or changing grips. I may be lucky in one respect. My hands and fingers are large enough that I don't really grip the pen so much as lock it in place. My fingers and thumb all make contact along their edges. That is what holds the pen in place, that and the natural adhesion between skin and the section material. I don't need to squeeze the pen for it to feel secure. If the section were much larger, I might be tempted to squeeze, but good habits now persist. Similarly, a very small section might encourage my digits to 'search' for a secure grip, resulting in a tense grip. Again, the old habits persist and I can hold an Elysee just as comfortably as a Gajendra.

 

BTW, I prefer very light pens, but then I work at a slanted desk, so gravity is already working for me on the pull strokes.

Absolutely. I use fat, heavy, longish pens - today's selection is an 80g Ancora Neptune - and I tend to write on a lap desk held at a downward slant when I can't sit at a desk. I also hold my pens back on the body above the section, which gives additional sweep. It counteracts the idiocy of those micro surfaces that pass for writing surfaces at some venues.

[knarflj]

 

Let me tackle this in reverse order. One of the reasons I'm a big fan of Spencerian (and many of its close kin) is that it has a stroke based pedagogy. The proper letter forms are an inevitable consequence of learning the correct strokes. Italic and other hands can (and have been) approached in this manner. Try moving in that direction with your practice. Stroke and observe. Wax on, Wax off. Critique your letters after you write them, not while you're writing them.

 

The reason your grip tightens is because you are steering the pen with your fingers, not making strokes. Yes you can make strokes using (primarily) the fingers, but those are the vertical strokes. The horizontal movements should (must) come from movement of the hand as a whole if you want to avoid hand fatigue and a tight grip. Whether that lateral movement comes from the wrist or from the arm is open to debate or, at the very least, interpretation.

 

Once you become comfortable with a stroke based approach, much of the first question is answered. I would make one point, however. The desk stabilizes the forearm. It is not there to support your upper body. (If you must lean on something, lean on the non-writing hand.) The writing desk in my office is slanted - it provides plenty of stability for the arm - and I do a great deal of work at a lap desk, where the side of my body, (more specifically, the right side of my stomach) stabilizes the arm.

 

I hope that helps a bit.

 

Mickey, thanks for pointing out the difference between leaning on the desk and using it to stabilize the arm. I've definitely been leaning too much, so that is one thing I will need to work on retraining for sure.

 

When I tried to think about stroke-based writing, however, I discovered that I'm not sure exactly what that means - or at least, I'm not sure how to achieve it. Even when I think I'm practicing controlling the pen with the larger muscles instead of the fingers, I'll suddenly notice that I'm gripping the pen much harder after several minutes practice than I was when I started. I almost never degenerate so far as a real death grip, but I'd like to figure out how to keep it really relaxed for long periods of careful writing. I rarely grip hard when scribbling a first draft, for some reason.

 

Could you (or anyone!) provide tips on how to learn this stroke technique? Or direct me to another thread or a website where someone's already done that work?

[Mickey]

 

Mickey, thanks for pointing out the difference between leaning on the desk and using it to stabilize the arm. I've definitely been leaning too much, so that is one thing I will need to work on retraining for sure.

 

When I tried to think about stroke-based writing, however, I discovered that I'm not sure exactly what that means - or at least, I'm not sure how to achieve it. Even when I think I'm practicing controlling the pen with the larger muscles instead of the fingers, I'll suddenly notice that I'm gripping the pen much harder after several minutes practice than I was when I started. I almost never degenerate so far as a real death grip, but I'd like to figure out how to keep it really relaxed for long periods of careful writing. I rarely grip hard when scribbling a first draft, for some reason.

 

Could you (or anyone!) provide tips on how to learn this stroke technique? Or direct me to another thread or a website where someone's already done that work?

 

It's really pretty easy. Letters are assembled from strokes. For example, the italic 'i' is a single stroke. When you practice that 'i', you are practicing the first stroke of lot of italic letters. Now, connect that to another, hump-backed stroke and it becomes an 'n'. Make that two hump-backs and you have 'm' and so on. The first stroke in all these letters is the 'i' and if all the 'i' strokes look the same, the hand will have cohesion. The t downstroke and l are the same stroke as the 'i', only longer. Thus an h is an l-stroke plus an hump-back, and so on. Practice the strokes in isolation and then in combination. What you don't want to do initially is practice an 'h' (or any other multi-stroke letter) in isolation, as if it were not assembled from a number of parts (i. e., from strokes).

 

If you look at the early Spencerian materials http://www.iampeth.com/lessons/spencerian/new_standard/spencer_new_standard_page0.html the stroke scheme (principles) for the entire hand is mapped out. I'm fairly sure you could find a similar decomposition for italic or any other hand.

 

Proceeding in this manner is what I meant by stroke based practice rather than letter based practice.

[knarflj]

Thanks so much for taking the time to help, Mickey, and for that link. I will work on strokes for a while and see if that helps.

 

Jenny

[HDoug]

...

 

What struck me most was how labored and slow many of the writers were.

 

That labored part happened to be part of the video that asked a hypothetical, "what if you had to think about how to write every letter when you wrote?" kind of question. So yeah, it would be too labored. I took that out, and took the footage of the scribe writing big Gothic because as you point out that's lettering and not writing. I left the rest in and it gives a good look at a variety of hand motion, at least back in 1947. I don't think basic hand motions have changed much though.

 

"26 old letters" excerpts:

 

And since we're on hand motions and learning, here's a really wonderful video on how they teach handwriting in France: https://www.dropbox.com/s/sur18zxdzbautxe/Professional%20Development%20%7C%20France%20-%20Teaching%20Handwriting.mp4

 

Enjoy.

 

Doug

[SuperNib44]

Arm movement. I wish I would have been taught that from the beginning.