I Need Fast, Legible, Relaxed, Consistent Handwriting Asap

[Mickey]

  On 3/13/2012 at 3:14 AM, Zipzap said:

-To Mickey: Are you really suggesting that one can learn TWO distinct handwriting styles, and go back and forth between them when one chooses to do so? Wouldn't that require a complete change in grip + posture every time you do it? Your thoughts on this would be much appreciated. I'm aware that you're of the opinion that cursive is faster/neater/easier, but which sources would you recommend I check out for printing (i.e. italic writing)? Not to be a prude, but I'm still waiting for feedback regarding italic handwriting products and/or the book I have recently bought (Teach Yourself Better Handwriting) from the contributors to this thread.

 

 

One certainly could learn two distinct styles (the more distinct the better) and change back and forth at will, but that's not what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting is that you clean up your printing (for formulas, etc.), in whatever style you presently use, and learn a cursive hand for all other purposes. As for print models, the italic letter forms are certainly worth emulating, and probably are close to what you learned in grammar school.

 

My first cursive hand, learned at age 7, was a variant of Palmer (itself a relative of Spencerian). By my mid 20s, my writing had deteriorated till even I could barely read it. Around 1980, I rebuilt my handwriting as cursive italic, using the oft recommended Fred Eager book. For the next couple of decades that hand served, until I became interested in Copperplate and, soon there after, in Spencerian. About a half a year ago, I began learning Spencerian.

 

My standard handwriting now is monoline Spencer, sometimes called business writing. I can, at will, shift between Spencer and italic, though obviously the results are more satisfying when I use the correct pen type (pointed for Spencer, edged for italic). As for grip, posture, etc., there is no difference. Both hands are written employing a whole arm approach (fingers, arm, and used in a coordinated manner) with a standard tripod grip.

Edited March 13, 2012 by Mickey

[Zipzap]

  On 3/13/2012 at 5:09 AM, Mickey said:

 

 

One certainly could learn two distinct styles (the more distinct the better) and change back and forth at will, but that's not what I'm suggesting. What I'm suggesting is that you clean up your printing (for formulas, etc.), in whatever style you presently use, and learn a cursive hand for all other purposes. As for print models, the italic letter forms are certainly worth emulating, and probably are close to what you learned in grammar school.

 

My first cursive hand, learned at age 7, was a variant of Palmer (itself a relative of Spencerian). By my mid 20s, my writing had deteriorated till even I could barely read it. Around 1980, I rebuilt my handwriting as cursive italic, using the oft recommended Fred Eager book. For the next couple of decades that hand served, until I became interested in Copperplate and, soon there after, in Spencerian. About a half a year ago, I began learning Spencerian.

 

My standard handwriting now is monoline Spencer, sometimes called business writing. I can, at will, shift between Spencer and italic, though obviously the results are more satisfying when I use the correct pen type (pointed for Spencer, edged for italic). As for grip, posture, etc., there is no difference. Both hands are written employing a whole arm approach (fingers, arm, and used in a coordinated manner) with a standard tripod grip.

 

So assuming that I clean up my printing in my current handwriting style, what "other purposes" would I need to learn a cursive hand? I'm not putting cursive down in anyway, but I'm new to this and I'm trying to learn more about better handwriting as it is. :ltcapd:

 

Unfortunately for me, I don't have access to the Fred Eager book that you're referring to. As I've stated, the only handwriting book (for italics) I have on me is "Teach Yourself Better Handwriting", and I'd like to give that a full trial run before I look to other italic products or handwriting styles. That being said, I do enjoy having access to these other forms of handwriting (i.e. cursive.)

 

Finally, is there a difference between "mono line Spencer" and regular Spencer? Thanks for taking the time with these replies! :clap1:

[Mickey]

Monoline = unshaded, business writing

 

Other purposes: note taking, correspondence, anything not specifically requiring Roman, Greek, or italic derived letters

 

Why cursive?: fast, less likely to produce RSI (when done correctly), more acceptable for correspondence and other social communication, potentially more attractive than printing.

[stonezebra]

Has anyone suggested this > Library-Hand (page down a bit) Don't know how fast it is but it is very legible and would likely be faster with practice. (it's also in a topic somewhere here on FPN but I couldn't find it)

Edited March 13, 2012 by stonezebra

[Zipzap]

  On 3/13/2012 at 8:01 PM, Mickey said:

Monoline = unshaded, business writing

 

Other purposes: note taking, correspondence, anything not specifically requiring Roman, Greek, or italic derived letters

 

Why cursive?: fast, less likely to produce RSI (when done correctly), more acceptable for correspondence and other social communication, potentially more attractive than printing.

 

Hold on a second....so I'm only using print for my necessary math/science purposes, and then using cursive for pretty much everything else? Don't mean to seem rude, but that doesn't seem efficient. With cursive taking over that much of my handwriting I might as well just permanently switch over to Spencerian, eliminating my goal of handwriting print fast in the first place.

[Mickey]

  On 3/13/2012 at 10:54 PM, Zipzap said:

  On 3/13/2012 at 8:01 PM, Mickey said:

Monoline = unshaded, business writing

 

Other purposes: note taking, correspondence, anything not specifically requiring Roman, Greek, or italic derived letters

 

Why cursive?: fast, less likely to produce RSI (when done correctly), more acceptable for correspondence and other social communication, potentially more attractive than printing.

 

Hold on a second....so I'm only using print for my necessary math/science purposes, and then using cursive for pretty much everything else? Don't mean to seem rude, but that doesn't seem efficient. With cursive taking over that much of my handwriting I might as well just permanently switch over to Spencerian, eliminating my goal of handwriting print fast in the first place.

 

It's as efficient as one is competent. Unless I'm using an oblique holder and flexible nibs, I use un-joined italic for lists, formulas, ledgers, and similar., and Spencerian for nearly everything else. It's simply my habit and taste.

 

Six months ago, all my writing was italic: unjoined for lists, etc., and cursive italic for everything else, whether I was using an italic nib or not. Then, mostly on a whim, I started learning Spencerian. Since then, I've adopted monoline Spencerian as my default handwriting. I write several to many hours a day, (working on a novel) and have found that monoline Spencerian is noticeably faster for me than cursive italic and less fatiguing

Edited March 14, 2012 by Mickey

[Zipzap]

That's interesting, but have you ever considered that maybe you perhaps spent more time and effort into practicing and getting right the monoline Spencerian method (since you are writing several hours a day)? Also, won't experiences be subject to differences (i.e. I might find that cursive italic, or just plain italic, helps me write faster than monoline Spencerian)?

[Mickey]

  On 3/14/2012 at 3:31 AM, Zipzap said:

That's interesting, but have you ever considered that maybe you perhaps spent more time and effort into practicing and getting right the monoline Spencerian method (since you are writing several hours a day)? Also, won't experiences be subject to differences (i.e. I might find that cursive italic, or just plain italic, helps me write faster than monoline Spencerian)?

 

I had over 20 years experience writing cursive italic. A few weeks of half-hour / day practice sessions in Spencerian and my writing speed was noticeably faster.

 

It's doubtful you'll see much speed gain from studying italic, though readability will likely improve considerably.

 

Learning any new hand will initially slow one down. Spencerian, however, was the first new hand I've learned (in adult life) which eventually resulted in a speed gain.

[KateGladstone]

Re "Hang on a second ... thatt doesn't seem efficient". — I I agree. My recommendation to you (as to most people) is that your "print" style should be an unjoned Italic, and your "joining" style should be an Italic with as any joins as you /a/ like, and /b/ can do well at speed. A good exercise to find you own personal best Bbalance of joins and pen-lifts s to write out all posdihle letter-combinations — "aa" through "zz" — seeing, as you write, where you can and cannot join with ease and comfort. This will take some time (there are 676 of these two-letter combos: 26x26), so do it over several days: perhaps aa->fz on Day 1, ga->mz on Day 2, na->sz on Day 3, and ta->zz on Day 4. For further coaching: I also sell diagnostic sessions, and you can PM or e-mail me for details: handwritingrepair@gmail.com

[Mickey]

  On 3/14/2012 at 4:55 AM, KateGladstone said:

Re "Hang on a second ... thatt doesn't seem efficient". — I I agree.

 

Scientific notation employs a hodge podge of alphabets and symbols. If mixing alphabets according to context constitutes an efficiency problem, science is probably a poor career choice.

[mcg1355]

To answer your question from a few posts ago, yes we are recommending the Lamy safari fountain pen with the nib size of your choice, not the ballpoint. Generally ballpoints require a good amount of pressure on the page to write properly. This causes your grip to tighten, causing your hand to be unrealaxed, causing your handwriting to be inconsistent and more than likely less legible. In contrast, fountain pens require very little pressure (not much more that the weight of the pen) to write properly. This allows a relaxed grip, allowing more fluent writing motion which will produce more even and readable writing.

 

For the lamy safari, I would recommend a fine or extra fine nib from my experience writing many many math and science equations while (currently) in college. For me any larger nib size makes subscript and superscript illegible, however, it depends on your preference and handwriting size. Check out Goulet Pens to pick one up. No affiliation, just a happy customer. I'd say get a safari, a Z24 cartridge converter, and a bottle of noodler's black ink. That will set you up with a good pen that will easily last you until the end of your education (more than likely much longer). For ink, noodler's black (commonly referred to a bulletproof black around here) will perform extremely well on pretty much any paper you can throw at it. From premium paper to blue books for exams to newsprint, not many inks can make that claim and fewer still are completely waterproof while doing it, hence, "bulletproof" black. Also, the safari has easily changeable nibs allowing you to change nib sizes if you like, or replace a damaged one (for example if you drop it point down on the floor). If you would like a cheaper option to at least try a fountain pen you could pick up a pack of pilot varsity disposable fountain pens. They usually come in a 4 pack of assorted color and only cost a few bucks. They are usually available at office supply stores (office max, office depot, staples, etc) but not always. If you try them and like it then I would strongly encourage you to get a safari.

 

I'd say getting a good pen as one of the first things to improving your handwriting because it is the foundation which you will build from. I checked out the pens you currently use and it looks like they use basic ballpoint refills in them. Generally, these refills use an oil based ink which is rather thick. This is the reason that they require a good deal of downward pressure to write properly, the thick ink is hard to pull through the ball at the tip; causing friction and resistance making it need more force to rotate and deliver ink to the page. I don't personally have experience with your primary pen, but your backup 4 color one I have used and it uses the ballpoint refills I have described.

 

I highly recommend at least giving a fountain pen a shot. If, for some reason, you don't want to I would at least try a Pilot G2 pen. It is the smoothest non-fountain pen I have come across and is used by many members here if a fountain pen isn't an option. It would be a large upgrade from normal ballpoints if you ask me. It just doesn't have the benefit of the grip that encourages a proper pen grip like the safari does.

 

I don't have very good handwriting, more of a print cursive abomination hybrid, so I'm finding the information in this thread very helpful as well. My handwriting got much better just by starting to use fountain pens about a year ago. Now I am actually going to focus on improving my handwriting as well.

 

Sorry for the essay of a post... Feel free to ask if you have any questions.

 

Oh yeah almost forgot the most important part

 

-Nick

[Mickey]

mcg1355,

 

Good advice, particularly to get away from ball points. Simply switching to a Safari (or a G2) and reducing pen pressure should help the OP.

[htom]

Italic is difficult to do rapidly without a lot of practice. Mostly, it's too complex, taking too many strokes for each letter.

 

(Reference: Essentials of Lettering, French)

 

Look here, scroll down to around figure 25, and see how an architectural or engineering draftsman does high-speed freehand lettering. It's not italic. Each letterform is reduced to a minimum amount of pen movement. (Especially the Reinhardt lower case.)

[Zipzap]

All right, so switching to a Safari/G2 will be an easy start for me. I may have a Pilot G2 pen at home, so I'll see if I can start digging that up and using it more often. A few questions though:

-My experience with the G2 is that it's a "smudge" pen (i.e. if your hand accidentally brushed what you JUST wrote, the ink will smudge and make what you wrote harder to see, if not other text near it as well). Is this due to me not having proper handwriting technique, or does this sort of ink not dry fast enough? I guess that's one of the reasons I've always used ballpoint, so that I don't have to worry about avoiding contact with what I just wrote in fear of making my writing illegible. However, mcg1355's comments about how you need to put a lot of pressure just to write are indeed ones that I cannot deny, and can sympathize with so far in my science degree. :embarrassed_smile:

-Are there any multi-pens out there that write as smooth as the G2 in terms of ink and what-not? The reason I use multi-pens is because it does help to add colour to the notes that I'm taking down, which not only helps to visually categorize and separate information, but I also find that it makes my notes that much easier to memorize (I'm a highly visual person). If not, I'll have to (I guess) live with it, although I am admittedly very attached to such pens due to the practicality of having one pen with me instead of a bunch just to change colours.

 

I'm going to try out mcg1355's suggestion to buy disposable fountain pens first to see if I would be further interested in buying a Lamy Safari ($28 is a LOT of money for just one pen!). I'll check if my local Staples has them, and hopefully they don't burn a hole in my wallet (and hopefully I can find some of that "bulletproof" ink)

 

As per Mickey's helpful suggestions, I've decided that I'm going to try "repairing" my handwriting first using "Teach Yourself Better Handwriting" (still waiting for someone's feedback regarding the quality of this book ), and see how far I can get with that. From there, I will decide if I want to pursue italic handwriting further (Fix It Write, or Write It Now as my primary resource), or tackle monoline Spencerian handwriting with the resources that he has suggested. On a side note, I'm pretty content that science is a good career choice of me independent of the handwriting issues I may face. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like keeping one style consistently for my writing (for science especially, but writing in general) makes it more aesthetically pleasing to the reader. :roflmho:

 

On a side note, what would also help is if I had a good notebook to takes notes with. My criteria:

-Shouldn't have the problem where the ink "bleeds" through the paper, or enough so that it distorts what I've written on the opposite side.

-I should be able to flip it over and write on the back side of the page instantly (since my lectures are very fast-paced). I do write notes (if handwriting) on both sides of a paper because I'm not a big fan of wasting paper. Someone tell me now if this is not an efficient way to go about this.

-Preferably, I should be able to "rip" papers out and staple one day's lecture notes so that I can put them in a folder at home and take them out when I wish to review for a midterm or use them to do an assignment

-Hopefully not too expensive.

-Bring up any other criteria you feel must be in a good notebook, and it might be one that I've forgotten about.

[professionaldilettante]

  On 3/14/2012 at 6:36 PM, Zipzap said:

All right, so switching to a Safari/G2 will be an easy start for me. I may have a Pilot G2 pen at home, so I'll see if I can start digging that up and using it more often. A few questions though:

-My experience with the G2 is that it's a "smudge" pen (i.e. if your hand accidentally brushed what you JUST wrote, the ink will smudge and make what you wrote harder to see, if not other text near it as well). Is this due to me not having proper handwriting technique, or does this sort of ink not dry fast enough? I guess that's one of the reasons I've always used ballpoint, so that I don't have to worry about avoiding contact with what I just wrote in fear of making my writing illegible. However, mcg1355's comments about how you need to put a lot of pressure just to write are indeed ones that I cannot deny, and can sympathize with so far in my science degree. :embarrassed_smile:

-Are there any multi-pens out there that write as smooth as the G2 in terms of ink and what-not? The reason I use multi-pens is because it does help to add colour to the notes that I'm taking down, which not only helps to visually categorize and separate information, but I also find that it makes my notes that much easier to memorize (I'm a highly visual person). If not, I'll have to (I guess) live with it, although I am admittedly very attached to such pens due to the practicality of having one pen with me instead of a bunch just to change colours.

 

I'm going to try out mcg1355's suggestion to buy disposable fountain pens first to see if I would be further interested in buying a Lamy Safari ($28 is a LOT of money for just one pen!). I'll check if my local Staples has them, and hopefully they don't burn a hole in my wallet (and hopefully I can find some of that "bulletproof" ink)

 

As per Mickey's helpful suggestions, I've decided that I'm going to try "repairing" my handwriting first using "Teach Yourself Better Handwriting" (still waiting for someone's feedback regarding the quality of this book ), and see how far I can get with that. From there, I will decide if I want to pursue italic handwriting further (Fix It Write, or Write It Now as my primary resource), or tackle monoline Spencerian handwriting with the resources that he has suggested. On a side note, I'm pretty content that science is a good career choice of me independent of the handwriting issues I may face. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like keeping one style consistently for my writing (for science especially, but writing in general) makes it more aesthetically pleasing to the reader. :roflmho:

 

On a side note, what would also help is if I had a good notebook to takes notes with. My criteria:

-Shouldn't have the problem where the ink "bleeds" through the paper, or enough so that it distorts what I've written on the opposite side.

-I should be able to flip it over and write on the back side of the page instantly (since my lectures are very fast-paced). I do write notes (if handwriting) on both sides of a paper because I'm not a big fan of wasting paper. Someone tell me now if this is not an efficient way to go about this.

-Preferably, I should be able to "rip" papers out and staple one day's lecture notes so that I can put them in a folder at home and take them out when I wish to review for a midterm or use them to do an assignment

-Hopefully not too expensive.

-Bring up any other criteria you feel must be in a good notebook, and it might be one that I've forgotten about.

IF you're ripping out pages, I would just go straight to printer paper, and just print lines on it with incomptech. I find that printer paper is easier to come by that meet your criteria, and much cheaper. I spend no more than 3 dollars for 500 sheets.

$28 dollars may seem a lot now... wait till you hit $400 :roflmho:

Edited March 14, 2012 by professionaldilettante

[Zipzap]

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, do you know of any writing pads that fit the criteria? I'm thinking that my writing on the back of the paper might be a slight bit of a waste of time, and that I'm probably being too picky about wasting paper (since I rarely use the notes after the course is done).

[Lalique]

One of the books you referenced, "Write Now", teaches both basic Italic (printing) and cursive Italic (writing).

[Zipzap]

  On 3/14/2012 at 7:54 PM, Zipzap said:

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, do you know of any writing pads that fit the criteria? I'm thinking that my writing on the back of the paper might be a slight bit of a waste of time, and that I'm probably being too picky about wasting paper (since I rarely use the notes after the course is done).

 

^Someone want to contribute to this? :hmm1:

 

On a side note, I do a lot of writing in my science courses with a pencil. Any recommendations from you guys about which pencil is best suited for daily handwriting? If it helps, I'm a bigger fan of mechanical pencils in comparison to the traditional HB2 ones.

[WendyNC]

One the subject of italic styles, I'll refer you to this little book by our member caliken. You might also want to take a look at some of his topics to get a view of various handwriting styles, as executed by a master, just to see if there's something which appeals to you.

 

My "italic" doesn't look quite like any of his and mine is a hodge-podge of joined and unjoined. However, I find that working with it reinforces my bastardized version of Specerian Business Writing and vice-versa.

[Zipzap]

  On 3/15/2012 at 10:59 PM, WendyNC said:

One the subject of italic styles, I'll refer you to this little book by our member caliken. You might also want to take a look at some of his topics to get a view of various handwriting styles, as executed by a master, just to see if there's something which appeals to you.

 

My "italic" doesn't look quite like any of his and mine is a hodge-podge of joined and unjoined. However, I find that working with it reinforces my bastardized version of Specerian Business Writing and vice-versa.

 

Wow, those are some nice handwriting styles, and all from the same individual!

 

I won't lie, all the styles he presents do appeal to me. Having that said, I would end up picking the one that would generate the fastest handwriting speed.

 

 

That aside, can anyone answer the pad and pencil questions I've brought up in my previous two posts? All this help is really helping me out!